Trans representation in gaming

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I'm making this as a continuance to the "Escapist got bought" thread, since the topic came up there and I felt it important and relevant enough to get its own thread. Let's have a discussion about this, no judgment, don't be assholes. Ke?

My thoughts...

Well, it'd be nice if gamers ever get trans characters in games to begin with. And by "character", I mean one with goals, personality traits, and a definable character arc with beginning, middle, and end whose role is central to the game's plot. All these "characters" that are typically trotted out as ground-breaking exemplars of trans representation in games -- and I'm not going to lie, when I say that Hainly Abrams, Crem, and Mizhena leap to mind -- whose presence is a springboard for controversy, aren't characters at all...not in any meaningful sense that I consider relevant to trans representation, anyhow.

Compare these characters to another in a BioWare game, Steve Cortez. Cortez is the gay romance option. He's a well-written, well-rounded, character in his own right. At the start of the game he's a broken man, mourning the loss of his husband to the Collectors, who drowns himself in his work to cope. As the game progresses he works through his grief, forming friendships and connections on-board the Normandy, and starts looking forwards. The "STEEEVE!" thing was stupid to be sure, and undermines his character and his character arc at the eleventh hour, but up until that point it was a very good story and taken as a whole a good character who can be easily characterized as anything but "the gay dude".

The closest thing to that you get out of any of these trans "characters" is Crem, and he's a side quest and exposition dispensary. I played through the game with special attention to this character specifically because of the controversy about him, and I'm struggling to really attach any defining character features or semblance of a character arc to him. What's there -- how he came to be with Iron Bull -- is all backstory, and the dilemma later in the game involving him has no direct connection to his character at all. I hate to say it, but there's just nothing there.

At least in my opinion, these aren't characters. They're cardboard cutouts. And in the face of that, yes, I believe questions and criticism of the game's writers and developers is justified. They want to add trans characters, but they can't give them definable character traits and arcs beyond "trans"? That's nonsense, and I don't buy the "well this is the best we can do right now" lines for a nanosecond, especially when these same people lay claim to being such ground-breaking defiant revolutionaries. This just doesn't add up, and it reeks of pandering and tokenism.

And sure, it makes me see red when my criticisms, and criticisms like mine from within the trans gamer community and without, are swept aside under sweeping accusations of transphobia while greater sins of condescension and patronisation go normalized. Because, I want more trans characters in games...but they have to be real characters, not cardboard cutouts to satisfy a diversity checklist.

But this isn't about me, this is about giving a group of people the representation they deserve, at the level of quality and good faith they deserve. Maybe I'm just screaming at a wall by now, I don't know. What are everyone else's thoughts?

 

[Saelune]

I want more than cut-outs, but when the best trans representation in gaming is Birdo from Mario and Poison from Final Fight/Street Fighter, well, take what I can get I guess.


I don't think that one character they put in the expansion for Baldur's Gate that game out like, 15 years after the game was released is a great character, but most of the people bitching about it are just shitty people who hate having to be confronted with diversity of any sort.


And even myself as someone who has complained about say, a black woman playing MJ in Spider-Man and things like that, I am, well, I am putting less effort into being mad about it cause there are worse problems than that in life. (Though I would be appeased enough if she atleast dyed her hair red)

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Just make a good character that so happens to be whatever. For example, the TV show Billions has a gender non-binary character and I care about said character because they're a good character. The problem with video games is that the writing is usually shit so most characters (diverse or not) come off as an one-dimensional / token-type character. I think TLOU did a good job with Ellie by just introducing her as a person because 90+% of the time people just act like people when outside an intimate setting.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I don't think that one character they put in the expansion for Baldur's Gate that game out like, 15 years after the game was released is a great character, but most of the people bitching about it are just shitty people who hate having to be confronted with diversity of any sort.

Sure, they're shitty people, but the number of people complaining about her mere presence was a fart in a hurricane compared to the people complaining she was killable in the first place, a pushover for her level and gear (let alone in-universe as a Cleric of Tempus), originally dropped great loot and was worth tons of XP, farmable because she respawned for some reason, and the message Beamdog sent by...well, not thinking any of this through as well as they should have. Or the number of people complaining she wasn't a very good character, and how it was tokenism.

The posts and threads on the Beamdog forums at the time was the proof in the pudding. Honestly from my perspective as someone who watched this play out, the debacle was a case example of well-connected bad actors cherry-picking a minority of shitty people, to play "guilt by association" games, and downplay and discredit the majority of legitimate criticism. It just happened to be the case, that time around, the loudest and harshest criticism came from the trans community itself, which meant said bad actors had to back down and admit there, perhaps, was a problem other than misogynist gamers back at it again.

Yet, here we are two years later, and Beamdog's part in the shitstorm and culpability for it still ended up whitewashed.

 

[sniddy_v1legacy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flBqojLpAnI

 

[Saelune]

I don't think that one character they put in the expansion for Baldur's Gate that game out like, 15 years after the game was released is a great character, but most of the people bitching about it are just shitty people who hate having to be confronted with diversity of any sort.

Sure, they're shitty people, but the number of people complaining about her mere presence was a fart in a hurricane compared to the people complaining she was killable in the first place, a pushover for her level and gear (let alone in-universe as a Cleric of Tempus), originally dropped great loot and was worth tons of XP, farmable because she respawned for some reason, and the message Beamdog sent by...well, not thinking any of this through as well as they should have. Or the number of people complaining she wasn't a very good character, and how it was tokenism.

The posts and threads on the Beamdog forums at the time was the proof in the pudding. Honestly from my perspective as someone who watched this play out, the debacle was a case example of well-connected bad actors cherry-picking a minority of shitty people, to play "guilt by association" games, and downplay and discredit the majority of legitimate criticism. It just happened to be the case, that time around, the loudest and harshest criticism came from the trans community itself, which meant said bad actors had to back down and admit there, perhaps, was a problem other than misogynist gamers back at it again.

Yet, here we are two years later, and Beamdog's part in the shitstorm and culpability for it still ended up whitewashed.

I don't go on their forums, but on Steam it was all 'Get this SJW crap out of here'.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

The problem is, like with gay character and women, gaming writers have no idea what makes them part of that group other than the most basic generic cutout tropes. They have to get across that someone is gay in only a brief dialogue exchange or a single scene, and its usually horrically awkward and never comes across as real conversation.

Player Character: Hello Shopkeep, what have you got to sell?

NPC: The best swords and armor a gay armorer can make here at the Two Gay Men and a Hammer Forge!

And no one talks like that! I forget which character it was, but in Mass Effect Andromeda you meet an NPC who within one or two dialogue choices says they're trans and their dead name is X, and I remember it really upsetting people because that's not how trans people talk. They talk like everyone else, and people don't talk about their sexuality or gender or sex life with complete strangers at the drop of a hat.

And the other problem is the label just becoming token, like when Wu tried to make Samus trans, apparently not realizing Samus is a silent protagonist who rarely takes her armor off in game, and that being trans would never enter into the story, the plot, the gameplay or dialogue choices, so how is it inclusive?

There should be more inclusive characters sure, but the AAA writers can't even write a single believable character, let alone one charged with such emotion in this political climate.

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

The problem is, like with gay character and women, gaming writers have no idea what makes them part of that group other than the most basic generic cutout tropes. They have to get across that someone is gay in only a brief dialogue exchange or a single scene, and its usually horrically awkward and never comes across as real conversation.

Player Character: Hello Shopkeep, what have you got to sell?

NPC: The best swords and armor a gay armorer can make here at the Two Gay Men and a Hammer Forge!

And no one talks like that! I forget which character it was, but in Mass Effect Andromeda you meet an NPC who within one or two dialogue choices says they're trans and their dead name is X, and I remember it really upsetting people because that's not how trans people talk. They talk like everyone else, and people don't talk about their sexuality or gender or sex life with complete strangers at the drop of a hat.

And the other problem is the label just becoming token, like when Wu tried to make Samus trans, apparently not realizing Samus is a silent protagonist who rarely takes her armor off in game, and that being trans would never enter into the story, the plot, the gameplay or dialogue choices, so how is it inclusive?

There should be more inclusive characters sure, but the AAA writers can't even write a single believable character, let alone one charged with such emotion in this political climate.

But that doesn't excuse all the people who are just bigots complaining. Just because some people have justified criticism, doesn't mean the bigots latching on are justified too.


I'd prefer them trying poorly than not trying at all.


As for the Samus thing...what? I never heard of that, and who/what is Wu?

 

[Xprimentyl]

And sure, it makes me see red when my criticisms, and criticisms like mine from within the trans gamer community and without, are swept aside under sweeping accusations of transphobia while greater sins of condescension and patronisation go normalized. Because, I want more trans characters in games...but they have to be real characters, not cardboard cutouts to satisfy a diversity checklist.

Please allow me to qualify my following statements by saying up front that I have no issue whatsoever with any characters of any non-hetero sexual orientation or different gender identities in games (or any media for that matter.) If there's ever been a bigoted bone in my body, it must have been the chicken bone I choked on at Buffalo Wild Wings a couple years ago, and rest assured, I hacked it up on the spot.

Now, if I can ask a honest question (and pardon my ignorance if this comes off as offensive, naive or insensitive,) but what exactly would a "good" trans character look like? I mean, unless their gender identity is integral to the core story (hence loaning itself to the very condescension and patronization you rightly alluded to in the quote above,) wouldn't that issue simply be tangential? I'm not saying it can't be done, but as someone not intimately familiar with issues of gender identity, I honestly don't know how devs would convey a trans person without a focus on that fact.

Or maybe I'm overthinking it? Is it simply a matter of establishing the trans fact upfront and never overtly addressing it again, just let the game play out with a great narrative, interesting characters, good controls, etc.?

EDIT: This is my 1000th post!

 

[McElroy]

I think trans representation would work well in a setting that forgoes the contemporary reality of sex and gender identity. A fantasy or sci-fi setting in which changes including genderbending are common, clean, and easy enough that the concept of normal -- compared to queer -- is much more flexible than in reality. Have the PC or important NPCs go through with it, plot devices, reactions and all that. Could be fun.

 

[Terminal Blue]

"Trans representation" is complicated because there is literally only one trans story which is intelligible in our culture, and that is transitioning itself.. the problem is that transitioning isn't actually a fun time for most people, it's kind of the worst thing about being trans.

I think one thing we have to bear in mind with characters like Crem is that these stories aren't for cis people, and they aren't even for adult trans people. They're for that kid growing up somewhere surrounded by hatred and non-comprehension from everyone around them and who needs to be told that the way they feel is okay and that there are options available for them. To me as an adult, Crem comes off as a pretty shallow character. But, when I put myself back into the space I was in as a teenager, you know what, I would have taken it. Fuck, I'll still take it, because what else have we got?

I suspect long term non-binary people will become the standard for trans representation, because non-binary people tend to be more clockable and it avoids a lot of the issues of disclosure and outing which could easily come across as hurtful to a binary trans audience. Obviously, that makes me pretty happy on one level, but on another level it's kind of sad.

Like, the problem is the audience. The problem is that if we just write male and female characters doing stuff and having arcs and shit, people will just assume they're cis. The only way to write trans characters is to make them clockable, which sucks, because we live in a culture where being clocked is often humiliating and dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flBqojLpAnI

Nice to see you not caring there. You're doing a really good job. I was most impressed.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Like, the problem is the audience. The problem is that if we just write male and female characters doing stuff and having arcs and shit, people will just assume they're cis. The only way to write trans characters is to make them clockable, which sucks, because we live in a culture where being clocked is often humilitating and dangerous.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at; you managed to get there much more succinctly.

 

[Saelune]

And sure, it makes me see red when my criticisms, and criticisms like mine from within the trans gamer community and without, are swept aside under sweeping accusations of transphobia while greater sins of condescension and patronisation go normalized. Because, I want more trans characters in games...but they have to be real characters, not cardboard cutouts to satisfy a diversity checklist.

Please allow me to qualify my following statements by saying up front that I have no issue whatsoever with any characters of any non-hetero sexual orientation or different gender identities in games (or any media for that matter.) If there's ever been a bigoted bone in my body, it must have been the chicken bone I choked on at Buffalo Wild Wings a couple years ago, and rest assured, I hacked it up on the spot.

Now, if I can ask a honest question (and pardon my ignorance if this comes off as offensive, naive or insensitive,) but what exactly would a "good" trans character look like? I mean, unless their gender identity is integral to the core story (hence loaning itself to the very condescension and patronization you rightly alluded to in the quote above,) wouldn't that issue simply be tangential? I'm not saying it can't be done, but as someone not intimately familiar with issues of gender identity, I honestly don't know how devs would convey a trans person without a focus on that fact.

Or maybe I'm overthinking it? Is it simply a matter of establishing the trans fact upfront and never overtly addressing it again, just let the game play out with a great narrative, interesting characters, good controls, etc.?

EDIT: This is my 1000th post!

For one, probably not having them just be a female character model but merely acknowledged as formerly male. As evilthecat points out, if we cant tell, it kind of doesnst work, even though it is sort of counter-intuitive. Most 'trap' characters in anime are just girls with girl voices and a penis tacked on.


Assuming there is voice acting involved, it probably would be better to have someone actually using a feminized male voice or a masculanized female voice for the character. And not just a huksy lisp out of a man as per most trans joke characters, but a genuine attempt.


As for characterization, it depends on the game and its point. For one, many games probably just cant do more than lip service to representation. A game that isnt about the personal issues of the characters in it isnt going to do much. Now, Mass Effect COULD do it well if they ya know, did better. It shouldnt just be a lore dump of 'Im trans!' but just as with all the other characters, you have to build them up before they start trusting you with backstory.


Yes, the character is going to probably have to bring up the troubles they have with transitioning, or being treated as the 'wrong' gender, and how maybe alot of others are resistent to their true identity. If that makes people uncomfortable, good, this stuff wont fix anything if it doesnt make people who are stuck in the past uncomfortable.


I want to see powerful trans characters that still deal with the problems I face, to feel like even people stronger than me have these issues and that it is not because I am weak that I have them, thats what I want. Honestly, this last line is all I should write, but I dont feel like deleting the rest of what I said, cause its important too.

 

[Mcgeezaks]

I personally don't think every person on planet earth needs to represented in video games.

 

[CritialGaming]

I think the biggest problem with having a good LBGT-character in gaming is that a character's sexual preference is rarely any importance in the game's plot or world. Like if Nathan Drake was gay, where would it matter in the rest of the plot in all those games? They could make his future wife a male character and sort of build up that romance, but ultimately his sexual desire does nothing in context to the rest of the game.

If Dom in Gears of War was bitching about trying to find his boyfriend/husband the whole game, would it have changed anything? What about Marcus being trans? You see if they made Marcus transgendered, the only way you'd know is through stereotypes or behavior that doesn't make sense in the context of trying to battle aliens.

I've always felt that a character's sexual means nothing unless the game has romantic options for the player. Bioware games, Visual Novels, Bethesda RPG's, these games where your character is whomever you want them to be. You have the options to make your character gay, in Saint's Row you can even Transgender them at will and in the 4th game have them fuck whomever you want.

Maybe I just don't understand why people need to feel like they are a part of the protagonist in a game. Why they want to be represented. It just doesn't make sense to me. I play games to escape into a world away from my life. I suck, I'm a terrible unlovable person, so why would I want to play a character that's just like me? I'm a piece of shit, the last thing I want is to be a video game version of me.

What's more is that I cannot possibly speak to LBGT experience, but why do you all want care if a character is gay or not? Surely a person's sexual preferences are the least interesting thing about them right? I'm an intergalactic warrior here to save the galaxy from imminent doom. At what point when you are saving the universe does it matter who the character likes to sleep with?

That's what I don't get. I mean the transgender thing I can sort of understand more because it seems like a unique experience. HOWEVER, the motive of the Trans community seems to be that they just want to be accepted for who they are. If they were a woman who became a man, then they want to be treated like men. If they were men that became women, then they want to be treated like women. So doesn't it make sense that you can just label a given male/female character as trans if you want, because it should literally change nothing else about them?

 

[Saelune]

I personally don't think every person on planet earth needs to represented in video games.

Maybe, but LGBT people DO. As do women and non-whites (positively that is)

 

[Saelune]

I think the biggest problem with having a good LBGT-character in gaming is that a character's sexual preference is rarely any importance in the game's plot or world. Like if Nathan Drake was gay, where would it matter in the rest of the plot in all those games? They could make his future wife a male character and sort of build up that romance, but ultimately his sexual desire does nothing in context to the rest of the game.

If Dom in Gears of War was bitching about trying to find his boyfriend/husband the whole game, would it have changed anything? What about Marcus being trans? You see if they made Marcus transgendered, the only way you'd know is through stereotypes or behavior that doesn't make sense in the context of trying to battle aliens.

I've always felt that a character's sexual means nothing unless the game has romantic options for the player. Bioware games, Visual Novels, Bethesda RPG's, these games where your character is whomever you want them to be. You have the options to make your character gay, in Saint's Row you can even Transgender them at will and in the 4th game have them fuck whomever you want.

Maybe I just don't understand why people need to feel like they are a part of the protagonist in a game. Why they want to be represented. It just doesn't make sense to me. I play games to escape into a world away from my life. I suck, I'm a terrible unlovable person, so why would I want to play a character that's just like me? I'm a piece of shit, the last thing I want is to be a video game version of me.

What's more is that I cannot possibly speak to LBGT experience, but why do you all want care if a character is gay or not? Surely a person's sexual preferences are the least interesting thing about them right? I'm an intergalactic warrior here to save the galaxy from imminent doom. At what point when you are saving the universe does it matter who the character likes to sleep with?

That's what I don't get. I mean the transgender thing I can sort of understand more because it seems like a unique experience. HOWEVER, the motive of the Trans community seems to be that they just want to be accepted for who they are. If they were a woman who became a man, then they want to be treated like men. If they were men that became women, then they want to be treated like women. So doesn't it make sense that you can just label a given male/female character as trans if you want, because it should literally change nothing else about them?

Are you a straight white male? I don't know if you are, but if you are, maybe that is why you do not understand, because you ARE heavily represented in gaming, from DOOM Guy, to Master Chief, to Mario, Link, Duke Nukem, virtually every FPS ever, etc.


Many people who are bigoted, are bigoted cause they do not know anyone who they are bigoted against. Many bigoted people find it more difficult to actually be bigoted when someone they are close to is that thing. It is easier to hate black people when you dont know any and every representation of them you see is them as criminals and thugs, but now here is a movie where a black man is a badass super hero!


Seriously, people are ignorantly stupid. Hell, even I as an LGBT person dont fully understand lesbian relationships, since I am anything but. I am not going to oppress them for it, but not everone is so reasonable.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

The problem is, like with gay character and women, gaming writers have no idea what makes them part of that group other than the most basic generic cutout tropes. They have to get across that someone is gay in only a brief dialogue exchange or a single scene, and its usually horrically awkward and never comes across as real conversation.

Player Character: Hello Shopkeep, what have you got to sell?

NPC: The best swords and armor a gay armorer can make here at the Two Gay Men and a Hammer Forge!

And no one talks like that! I forget which character it was, but in Mass Effect Andromeda you meet an NPC who within one or two dialogue choices says they're trans and their dead name is X, and I remember it really upsetting people because that's not how trans people talk. They talk like everyone else, and people don't talk about their sexuality or gender or sex life with complete strangers at the drop of a hat.

And the other problem is the label just becoming token, like when Wu tried to make Samus trans, apparently not realizing Samus is a silent protagonist who rarely takes her armor off in game, and that being trans would never enter into the story, the plot, the gameplay or dialogue choices, so how is it inclusive?

There should be more inclusive characters sure, but the AAA writers can't even write a single believable character, let alone one charged with such emotion in this political climate.

But that doesn't excuse all the people who are just bigots complaining. Just because some people have justified criticism, doesn't mean the bigots latching on are justified too.


I'd prefer them trying poorly than not trying at all.


As for the Samus thing...what? I never heard of that, and who/what is Wu?

I have an interesting question: What genre of game lends itself to LGBTQZZWER+ community in a way that actually changes the plot and/or gameplay, 'cause the only genre I can think of it dating sim. Like I can't see the next Halo having a trans Spartan and it feeling like anything other than awkwardly shoe-horned, or the next Far Cry having a lesbian bar tender. I mean how would it ever come up in conversation and plot in a way that doesn't sound horrifically awkward?

The Samus thing was Briana Wu I think. She's in the same vein as Anita, and she started a twitter campaign to force Nintendo to announce Samus was transgender and anyone who didn't go along with it was transphobic. Didn't work of course, but it was a pretty big stink.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I think one thing we have to bear in mind with characters like Crem is that these stories aren't for cis people, and they aren't even for adult trans people. They're for that kid growing up somewhere surrounded by hatred and non-comprehension from everyone around them and who needs to be told that the way they feel is okay and that there are options available for them. To me as an adult, Crem comes off as a pretty shallow character. But, when I put myself back into the space I was in as a teenager, you know what, I would have taken it. Fuck, I'll still take it, because what else have we got?

I understand where you're coming from, but most of these games which include trans characters aren't rated for kids or even teens. The only one that's even come up thus far that's even T-rated is Dragonspear, because it's an expansion for BGEE. DAI and Andromeda are both M-rated games on the back of their language, violence, sexual content, and nudity. The argument these characters and stories are intended for gender dysphoric and questioning teens falls a bit short, when the game isn't marketed to teens to begin with. The stories you're talking about are important and relevant, but is it appropriate to lock them behind an age rating while leaving adult gamers with unfulfilling plots and characters?

Now, if I can ask a honest question (and pardon my ignorance if this comes off as offensive, naive or insensitive,) but what exactly would a "good" trans character look like? I mean, unless their gender identity is integral to the core story (hence loaning itself to the very condescension and patronization you rightly alluded to in the quote above,) wouldn't that issue simply be tangential? I'm not saying it can't be done, but as someone not intimately familiar with issues of gender identity, I honestly don't know how devs would convey a trans person without a focus on that fact.

Well, one interesting way to go about it in a game like BGEE would be to have a companion that shows up wearing a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. If you try to take it off or remove curse, they give you a response that no, they like wearing it and/or give some excuses as to why the belt comes in handy for their occupation, and if you press the issue it pisses them off and they leave the party. If you adventure with the companion and build a rapport, they eventually open up and explain they never felt right as a (man or woman), they happened to learn one day about magic belts that change a person's sex, and they became an adventurer to find one. It's one of their most prized possessions because it finally lets them live the way that feels right to them, but on the other hand wearing a cursed belt is a pain in the ass, they're sick of it, and just don't know what else they can do.

The companion doesn't know about true/permanent polymorphing, can't afford the service, and/or never found a wizard powerful enough and willing to do it, thereby introducing a side quest to get the character permanently polymorphed so they can live as a (man or woman) free of the belt. If you go through their side quest, which may involve just getting money or doing a set of favors for a powerful wizard, they get their polymorph and ditch the belt.

Introduce the companion around levels 3-5 before the belt gear slot really comes into play, so the player has no mechanical incentive to not use the companion on that basis alone, and get them invested in the companion's characterization and integrated into a party role. Give the character some flaws, and a personality that gamers generally find likable. Pull some behind-the-screen ish where the companion has a skill set, feats, or prestige class that make them really useful, but not a character players can't afford to use, to subtly lure them in the direction of using that character. Then, around levels 9-12 when being locked out of a belt gear slot starts becoming a liability, introduce the side quest to get rid of the belt.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Let's keep it classy here, folks.

We're watching.