Transgender question

[JustAnotherAardvark]

I, uh. I think you missed the point.

Mmmm... probably. Not very flattering for me, but .. truth hurts.

Or maybe you actually got it.

I ... wouldn't necessarily go that far.
I'm in that Jack Sparrow state "Why is the rum gone?" at the moment, and I apologize for interrupting your discourse ... in my defense, it's a rather good rum ?

 

[Signa]

Well, for all outward appearances, how is it different? I mean, I'm actually asking. I'm not talking about that condition that you can have your chromosomes backwards, but what is the actual difference between one person believing they are a woman trapped in a man's body, and another person believing they are a wolf trapped in a man's body?

how is being gay any different from people who want to have sex with dogs?

I'm not talking about what they are sexually attracted to. I'm asking about their sense of self identification. Yes, that identification can change what they are attracted to, but that's not part of the question, or really this discussion.

I think the point of the post was to equate the question

"... what is the actual difference between one person believing they are a woman trapped in a man's body, and another person believing they are a wolf trapped in a man's body?"

and

"how is being gay any different from people who want to have sex with dogs?"

Presumably the idea is that being gay isn't the same as being a zoophile, therefore ... being transgender isn't the same as otherkin ... yeah, the logic doesn't really follow.

Oh, I got that much, but it doesn't answer the question. I'm trying to figure out why Vault thinks so strongly that one is acceptable and the other is not when sexuality is not part of either.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, for all outward appearances, how is it different? I mean, I'm actually asking. I'm not talking about that condition that you can have your chromosomes backwards, but what is the actual difference between one person believing they are a woman trapped in a man's body, and another person believing they are a wolf trapped in a man's body?

Well, what's the difference between a man and a wolf (gender unspecified)? That's some fairly straightforwards answers to that. There is a very clear distinction between men and wolves with no grey area whatsoever.

But what's the difference between a man and a woman? Well, a man has a penis, except if he doesn't, and their DNA is different, except if it isn't and most people don't get this tested but still know what their gender is. Also, society views men and women differently, only lots of different societies have viewed the differences very differently and...

 

[inmunitas]

I'm more curious as to why a transgender person would have cosmetic surgery. I can understand wearing clothes or taking on behavior associtated with the opposite gender they were born as since that's mostly a social aspect but why would someone want to go through mutilating their own bodies that some do? Keep in mind, I think most cosmetic surgery is deplorable outside of extreme injury or deformity so I'm just as likely to not understand why some 50 year old celebrity would turn half of the body into plastic.

Just to be clear, transitioning gender has nothing to do with surgery, the transitioning part is switching the gender you "officially" identify as. Some people choose surgery in hope that it will help them cope with the condition, it's really just a form of treatment.

 

[Signa]

Well, for all outward appearances, how is it different? I mean, I'm actually asking. I'm not talking about that condition that you can have your chromosomes backwards, but what is the actual difference between one person believing they are a woman trapped in a man's body, and another person believing they are a wolf trapped in a man's body?

Well, what's the difference between a man and a wolf (gender unspecified)? That's some fairly straightforwards answers to that. There is a very clear distinction between men and wolves with no grey area whatsoever.

But what's the difference between a man and a woman? Well, a man has a penis, except if he doesn't, and their DNA is different, except if it isn't and most people don't get this tested but still know what their gender is. Also, society views men and women differently, only lots of different societies have viewed the differences very differently and...

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion? Is feeling like a wolf or the opposite gender equal to the person(s) feeling them, or are they unequal feelings? I want to know what makes those feelings unequal.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion?

I'm not ever going to make a mistake over whether someone is a wolf or a human. People misgender cis people all the time.

 

[inmunitas]

Well, for all outward appearances, how is it different? I mean, I'm actually asking. I'm not talking about that condition that you can have your chromosomes backwards, but what is the actual difference between one person believing they are a woman trapped in a man's body, and another person believing they are a wolf trapped in a man's body?

Well, what's the difference between a man and a wolf (gender unspecified)? That's some fairly straightforwards answers to that. There is a very clear distinction between men and wolves with no grey area whatsoever.

But what's the difference between a man and a woman? Well, a man has a penis, except if he doesn't, and their DNA is different, except if it isn't and most people don't get this tested but still know what their gender is. Also, society views men and women differently, only lots of different societies have viewed the differences very differently and...

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion? Is feeling like a wolf or the opposite gender equal to the person(s) feeling them, or are they unequal feelings? I want to know what makes those feelings unequal.

We would be able to test for it on a genetic level, if we knew what to look for, but as we don't it's difficult to make the distinction between genetic mutation and what's purely psychological.

 

[Signa]

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion?

I'm not ever going to make a mistake over whether someone is a wolf or a human.

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf? If you see a man claiming to be a woman, is he a woman? Neither have the physical appearance of what they say they are.

Once again, why is that concept unequal?

 

[Vault101]

I'm not talking about what they are sexually attracted to. I'm asking about their sense of self identification. Yes, that identification can change what they are attracted to, but that's not part of the question, or really this discussion.

no its not about sexual attraction

its the point that more often then not I see people point to otherkin as a way to invalidate trans people, much like people might point to something like incest and ask what the difference is between gay people

 

[Signa]

I'm not talking about what they are sexually attracted to. I'm asking about their sense of self identification. Yes, that identification can change what they are attracted to, but that's not part of the question, or really this discussion.

no its not about sexual attraction

its the point that more often then not I see people point to otherkin as a way to invalidate trans people, much like people might point to something like incest and ask what the difference is between gay people

Well, that still doesn't explain why otherkin are unequal to transgenders. Either there is a good reason why being transgendered is better than being otherkin, or both are equal and that validates both or invalidates both. Which is it?

 

[Thaluikhain]

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf?

Again, I can easily and obviously tell if a person is human or a wolf, because those terms are fairly clearly defined in ways that are visible at a glance. This is not the same with male and female, because these terms are ill-defined with no clear line between them.

If you see a man

How do I know they are a man? They happen to look stereotypical male, have short hair and wear masculine looking clothes?

 

[Signa]

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion?

I'm not ever going to make a mistake over whether someone is a wolf or a human.

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf? If you see a man claiming to be a woman, is he a woman? Neither have the physical appearance of what they say they are.

Once again, why is that concept unequal?

At that point it's just a matter of being able to make the distinction between the physical (sex) and the identity (gender). Sex is what you are physically, gender is how you identify based on how you feel you fit into cultural norms of gender, they are two completely different things.

What gender is itself is a long answer i probably can't do justice explaining.

Can you explain why transgendered people and otherkin are unequal? Everyone is dodging this question.

 

[The Lunatic]

how is being gay any different from people who want to have sex with dogs?

Seriously?


On the topic at hand.

We simply don't know.

Thus, we can't draw any differences or similarities to other conditions.

It's expected to be a disorder in the brain.

The whole "Different sex brain" thing is completely non-sense, it basically just means it shows up on a brain scan. Much in the same way depression or other mental ailments display. The idea "it's a woman's/man's brain in there!" is also completely untrue, the brain still overwhelming resembles the sex of the person in question.

I regards to "Why it'd make you want to change your gender", I can only really draw the following comparison, and I'm not even sure if it's accurate, so, do correct me if I'm wrong here.

Imagine your biggest insecurity. The thing you feel worst about yourself. Now imagine it's always there. Everyone can see it, nobody can ever not see the. You see it in the mirror, it's all you see. You hate it. It's completely irrational that you do, but, you do.

The feeling doesn't go away. It grows, and despite as accepting as people are, and as much they try to help, they cannot.

 

[Signa]

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion?

I'm not ever going to make a mistake over whether someone is a wolf or a human.

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf? If you see a man claiming to be a woman, is he a woman? Neither have the physical appearance of what they say they are.

Once again, why is that concept unequal?

At that point it's just a matter of being able to make the distinction between the physical (sex) and the identity (gender). Sex is what you are physically, gender is how you identify based on how you feel you fit into cultural norms of gender, they are two completely different things.

What gender is itself is a long answer i probably can't do justice explaining.

Can you explain why transgendered people and otherkin are unequal? Everyone is dodging this question.

I don't have any beef with otherkin. I'm fine with saying they're equal. Everyone has the right to identify as they wish.

Ok, but why are they equal then? I want rationalized explanations, not summary opinions.

 

[Signa]

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf?

Again, I can easily and obviously tell if a person is human or a wolf, because those terms are fairly clearly defined in ways that are visible at a glance. This is not the same with male and female, because these terms are ill-defined with no clear line between them.

If you see a man

How do I know they are a man? They happen to look stereotypical male, have short hair and wear masculine looking clothes?

This question has little to do with what they look like. I've been told that a transgendered person basically is the gender they feel they are, and surgery to change their sex is more corrective than just a form of expression of their feelings. So if they look like a man, they probably are a man, but if that man told you he felt he was a woman, does it make it that he's truly a woman? I've been told yes. Now if that same man said he was a wolf, we all probably would laugh at him. Why?

 

[GoodOmens]

I'm just wondering what the driving motivation behind switching genders is.
Not because I'm judging, simply because I don't understand.

Is it the desire to conform with the other gender's social norms? Is it a rejection of the role traditionally assigned to your sex?

Like, I'm a guy, but I'm not a man's man. I do a lot of things traditionally associated with women. But I don't want to be a woman. I'm not sure I explicitely want to be a man either.
And I'm not implying that I'm the norm. I'm just genuinely curious what triggers the desire to go the next step(s).

EDITED the bold part to emphasize where my question is actually coming from.

(For sake of context, I'm a cis male.) I think you're looking at it the wrong way. A person who identifies as trans (not counting those who embrace it as a fad, which there are some) isn't necessarily interested in going against societal gender norms, though that may be the case independently of the transsexual personality. You say, for example, that you're not a "man's man." But you identify yourself as a man, just one who doesn't fit male societal gender norms. That's not trans. It would be different if you thought of yourself not as "not a man's man" but "not a man." If you saw yourself, your essential identity, as female. That's it. A lack of interest in the traditional gender roles may or may not accompany that.

I'm not entirely positive that a cis person can truly understand how a trans person thinks and feels, not because there's something inhuman about it but rather that gender strikes so deep into our psyche.

 

[Signa]

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion?

I'm not ever going to make a mistake over whether someone is a wolf or a human.

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf? If you see a man claiming to be a woman, is he a woman? Neither have the physical appearance of what they say they are.

Once again, why is that concept unequal?

At that point it's just a matter of being able to make the distinction between the physical (sex) and the identity (gender). Sex is what you are physically, gender is how you identify based on how you feel you fit into cultural norms of gender, they are two completely different things.

What gender is itself is a long answer i probably can't do justice explaining.

Can you explain why transgendered people and otherkin are unequal? Everyone is dodging this question.

I don't have any beef with otherkin. I'm fine with saying they're equal. Everyone has the right to identify as they wish.

Ok, but why are they equal then? I want rationalized explanations, not summary opinions.

Why are they equal? Weird question, i'm kinda going by the logic that everyone is equal until i'm given some reason to believe they aren't. I don't see a reason the different identities would make otherkin/transgender identities superior or inferior to each other. Maybe i'm not understanding what you're trying to ask.

No no, that's fine. That explains why you feel that way and I am satisfied with your reply. So next question: in the public eye, a transgendered person and an otherkin will get different reactions to how they explain themselves to others. Who would the public be more unfair to in your opinion?

 

[Signa]

snip

Do you see the distinction?

Not. At. All. I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't mesh with conventional language at all. It sounds like you're drawing lines that are only going to confuse people. Male and man are the same word to me. I only choose one over the other because of how English requires me to.

I still have not got a straight answer from you why otherkin are equal or unequal to transgendered people. I'm not looking for how you'd identify them, but the difference in how they identify themselves.Oops, I thought I was talking to someone else. Sorry. Tired.


@everyone

Before I get a huge quote storm, please be aware that it's 4am, and this is my brain trying to rationalize a thought exercise on social politics and not an attack on a specific group. I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these things. God, I know I'm going to wake up tomorrow and be quoted like 12 times.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So if they look like a man, they probably are a man, but if that man told you he felt he was a woman, does it make it that he's truly a woman?

You've jumped from "look like a man" to "man". If a person that looks to me like a man tells me they are a woman, why should I not believe them? People get that sort of thing wrong all the time.

If, for example, I was to bump into Tilda Swinton, who is a British actress and cis woman that often gets mistaken for a man, and I thought she was a man and she told me otherwise, what should I do? Insist that she is a man, because she looked like one to me?

Now if that same man said he was a wolf, we all probably would laugh at him. Why?

A person that looks like a man (and can talk to me) is never, ever going to turn out to be a wolf under any circumstances.

 

[zumbledum]

cisgendered

seen this phrase a few time lately im just curious what it refers to?