Tropes vs Women SECOND VIDEO - "Damsel in Distress: Part 2"

[LetalisK]

Can someone just tell me what troops and what games she addresses?
I'd rather be able to make a counter argument (if I feel the need to) without grinding my teeth into dust.

You want to make a counter argument to an argument you don't entertain?

I think clearer when my emotions aren't involved, and I'd rather have the cliff notes then watch the whole thing

It seems like you want to disagree just to disagree, not because you actually have a point to make. This is besides a second-hand retelling runs the risk of being a misrepresentation, particularly with how information, example, and disclaimer dense this video is, and thus possibly making your entire argument a strawman through no fault of your own. More importantly, it'd be a second hand retelling of a 25 minute video. It's already at a bite size consumption level and there is no reason to run that risk. Even if you find her completely unlikeable and the very sight of her makes your blood boil, if you can't watch her video, walk away until you've calmed down, then come back and make a decent post, then you should save yourself the pain and ignore her. It's just not worth it.

But that's a pretty moot point now since it's been taken down.

 

[generals3]

Did she just get owned by Youtube? (i can't see it due to user agreement violation) Or is it a regional issue?

EDIT: nvm, i overlooked the posted tweet. I guess the internet did what it did best.

 

[Church185]

It might well be that it's YouTube's content ID system that took it down just now instead of trolls, due to the quickness that it was taken down. All she has to do is appeal and it should be up again relatively shortly.

So it might not have been the trolls. This time, anyway.

And that's just me guessing.

God help her if it is the content ID system, it took nearly 6 months for my Tekken Tag 2 video claim to be appealed. It may be awhile before we see this video.

 

[dragon_tail]

Wasn't a bad video, I managed to see all of it before the copyright lock, for whatever reason that occurred. My only real disagreement with her is about her condemnation of plots where a daughter is a damsel in distress, I would say that has little to do with sexism against adult women since the child would naturally come under the protection of the hero, regardless of gender.

And yet, it it mostly daughters. You could say that the reason why is that the player character is usually male and there is that "father and daughter" bond thing but I don't really see that being the reason.

-snip-

Yes, that would be a shocking scene for sure.

 

[Shadowstar38]

I'll give it a watch if and when the restriction thing gets lifted. Though it might be best for everyone's sanity if that doesn't happen.

 

[JoJo]

Wasn't a bad video, I managed to see all of it before the copyright lock, for whatever reason that occurred. My only real disagreement with her is about her condemnation of plots where a daughter is a damsel in distress, I would say that has little to do with sexism against adult women since the child would naturally come under the protection of the hero, regardless of gender.

And yet, it it mostly daughters. You could say that the reason why is that the player character is usually male and there is that "father and daughter" bond thing but I don't really see that being the reason.

A fair point, while there are exceptions (e.g. Heavy Rain) there definitely is a lean towards daughters, possibly as young girls are stereotypically considered to be more vulnerable and sympathy-eliciting than young boys, which I suppose is a form of sexism itself, so I will concede that. Still, I don't think it's a perfect fit with the whole "women need protection and saving by their men" angle that Sarkeesian was criticising since part of the role of a parent is to provide protection to one's child and so it isn't degrading for that sort of relationship to be common in games, as opposed to the man always having to save or avenge his (supposedly equal) significant other.

 

[LetalisK]

i couldnt of worded it better myself. it isnt till its displayed like this showing over and over how the theme is constantly repeated in gaming that i literally went ouch. time for gaming to grow up.

id like to see something subversive in a game where the trope plays out as the standard damsel in distrss the hero gets to the end to discover his damsel has already escaped. queue capture scene and she has to now rescue him

It made me think "Maybe that developer making the comment about how they put Lara Croft through so much physical pain so that the male audience will care about her is not so far off the mark". Now I think a good question to ask is if such a course of action is justified or if it's an unnecessary relic in game writing. Do we really need to go to that extent to get the audience to care about her or is it just habit? Or possibly it was an honest attempt at character development and to break the mold of how protagonists are established and had the "unfortunate" circumstance of happening to a female protagonist. I would like to assume the latter.

 

[Estelindis]

I thought this video was excellent. She backed up her points with plenty of examples. I liked how she said that this trope isn't good for men either because it tends to normalize men using violence to overcome the feeling of being powerless.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

Glad to see that there are still DUDE BROS out there that can't handle a poignant conversation, instead choosing to falsely flag an innocent video and get it pulled down. What would we do without them? Oh, right, advance as a human species.

Surely, this could've been easily avoided and such a thing would've never happened if she never closed her comment box and stifled all discussion in the first place!

Spoiler: ...

pffffftsorry I couldn't keep a straight face :D [/spoiler]

OT: I managed to see it before it got pulled down. Overall, I liked this episode moreso than her previous one. I hope her next vid won't take as long to come out as this one. Cause it's getting tiring holding off any opinions about her work until the end (And whether or not this fiasco was worth the drama and 100,000$ to begin with)

Discussion value? I guess I can't really deny anything she pointed out. Overused tropes indeed, and I think that stems from lack of creativity, rather than an active vendetta against an entire gender.

Not that this makes it less of a problem.

 

[Estelindis]

Surely, this could've been easily avoided and such a thing would've never happened if she never closed her comment box and stifled all discussion in the first place!

I'm not under the impression that closing comments is a violation of the terms of service and thus a reason to take the video down. I mean, obviously, if it was then YouTube wouldn't even give the option for that!

Overused tropes indeed, and I think that stems from lack of creativity, rather than an active vendetta against an entire gender.

Not that this makes it less of a problem.

Yes, I think this is pretty much what Anita said herself and I agree.

 

[IceForce]

"Video removed due to violating Youtube's terms of service"

Oh look, the trolls inundated the new episode with inappropriate contents/copyright claims and managed to get the video taken down.

I'll give it a watch if and when the restriction thing gets lifted. Though it might be best for everyone's sanity if that doesn't happen.

Video is back up again.

Also, a bit of an explanation about what happened:
[tweet t=http://twitter.com/femfreq/status/339507377915183104]
So it was trolls, basically.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Just watched it and, honestly, totally loved it. I was impressed by first episode, but second just nailed it. She provided many examples and data, reinforcing every trope she was talking about. Also, she explained how overuse of those tropes might also degrade male characters, kudos for that. All in all, very, very impressive episode.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Glad to see that there are still DUDE BROS out there that can't handle a poignant conversation, instead choosing to falsely flag an innocent video and get it pulled down. What would we do without them? Oh, right, advance as a human species.

Surely, this could've been easily avoided and such a thing would've never happened if she never closed her comment box and stifled all discussion in the first place!

Spoiler: ...

I almost, almost hurled a beehive of angry words at you.

It's another great video that internet peeps are going to irrationally hate, despite the last 5 minutes (especially the last two) explicitly countering every argument that said peeps are going to make based on 2nd hand retellings of the video they can't stand to watch.

I'm kinda sad for us as a species.

 

[LetalisK]

Surely, this could've been easily avoided and such a thing would've never happened if she never closed her comment box and stifled all discussion in the first place!

I'm not under the impression that closing comments is a violation of the terms of service and thus a reason to take the video down. I mean, obviously, if it was then YouTube wouldn't even give the option for that!

If you look very closely, I think you will notice a tongue firmly implanted in a cheek. >.>

 

[generals3]

Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.

And oh-oh-oh, even if the violence against a woman makes sense due to plot devices its use is not justified? Wut? I thought that would be the ultimate justification. And than we go talk about statistics, nvm the fact men are actually more likely to be killed, but oh well. And these games trivialize violence against women? Bollocks, the mere fact they usually use it to get people emotional means they are doing the exact opposite.

She made some interesting observations about the wide use of the tropes, but she should really stop making pseudo-psychological claims about videogames. Not only does it often not make any sense but it's also unproven and just causing controversy for nothing.

Anyway, videogames are meant to be used as an escapist tool. I don't want videogames to be reflexions of real life political correct behavior. I want games to be fun. If a damsel in the fridge being euthanized after being mutilated by her husband somehow makes sense in the game's story and goes in line with the mechanics, than so be it.

 

[Tony2077]

well said general

she has a point but she seems to have hidden it somewhere. some of the stuff she says I'm not sure where she got it from context is important and the baseless accusations don't help her any

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.

I don't think you watched the last five minutes of her video. It pretty much contradicts everything you think/claim about the video, point for point. You might want to revisit that part.

Capcha: Window Dressing.

 

[generals3]

Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.

I don't think you watched the last five minutes of her video.

Capcha: Window Dressing.

I did, but the last five minutes don't suddenly make the rest disappear. Shortly discussing the effects it may have on males , which i disagree with for the same reasons by the way, or trying to slightly backtrack on previously made statements doesn't make the blatantly wrong claims go away. (this is why i wrote my initial post as i was watching the video. This allowed me to avoid the bias of only focusing on the end (which you're more likely to remember if you post after watching the whole video))

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.

I don't think you watched the last five minutes of her video.

Capcha: Window Dressing.

I did, but the last five minutes don't suddenly make the rest disappear. Shortly discussing the effects it may have on males, which i disagree with for the same reasons by the way, doesn't make the blatantly wrong claims go away.

No, but it explains:

1) That these women's lives aren't more 'valuable' than men; these women are things that have been taken from men. That's one point nixed.
2) You said that the word she's looking for is misandry? What on earth are you talking about? She outright says that these portrayals also are outright limiting representations of men; they are limitations on the roles we play and the ways we react to the loss of loved ones. She's mentioned similar ways in which feminism deals with how men suffer because of patriarchy in at least three of her other videos.
3) In terms of justification on a case-by-case basis, she may as well have outright said the following: the problem isn't that any individual game uses the damsel in distress trope, it's that the trope remains obligatory throughout the medium.
4) I don't even want to get into the difference between claiming that a storyteller is cashing in on patriarchal hegemony and going into 'hypodermic needle' media effects theory. I don't have the patience for it. But Anita mentioned that she's talking about the first, not the second.

Capcha: Live. Love. Internet.

 

[Erttheking]

"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!