Tropes vs Women SECOND VIDEO - "Damsel in Distress: Part 2"
- Thread starter IceForce
- Start date
Recommended Videos
No - I would say you missed my point entirely. I like these games, so I find her accusation against women portrayed in games in general, to be wrong _because_ of these games. These games have well written women, and I hope she underlines that to some extent or greater detail - so far she hasn't.firmicute said:Rpgs where the main char isnt written: skyrim, WOwPhaerim said:First of all I don't agree with her on the part of games having problem portraying women, because some of my favourite games (Baldur's Gate, Guild Wars, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Mirror's Edge, Final Fantasy X, Skyrim, World of Warcraft, Bioshock, Silent Hill series etc.) include so many well written female characters.
We think alike
dragon age&mass effect are from a studio which is known for their way of progressiveness and good characterization-so ther is nothinc to critizise-and she does not. These tropes (euthanized girlfriend, murdered and stolen girlfriend etc) arent in this games, so you i thing you just missed the point.
and-its not about one game or another-ist about all, ist about the prevalence of this kidn of tropes in games in general.
she eeven named/showd mirrors edge as a good example for good characterization of women (with-a female player character AND a PoC player character. which isnt very often the case.Soo remember me)
The problem is that the companies assume that the demand is low, when it actually isn't. The companies are so afraid of trying new things to appeal to the other demographics that they prefer to stick to the tried and true ways.generals3 said:
And it also has nothing to do with how niche the game is. The game ends up costing more than it makes back, so it ends up failing. Jim Sterling has said it in an episode quite succinctly, a game that is focused to a niche audience can be a commercial success without needing to debase itself by appealing to the biggest audience. So long as it knows its niche audience and delivers what the audience wants, it will be a success.generals3 said:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.aspgenerals3 said:
And I see that as her expressing her opinion, not a fact. I think she does genuinely believe what she's saying, and that's why she speaks so factually, but I wouldn't consider her statements as factual when the term "harmful" is so ill-defined and difficult to find proof for.generals3 said:
There are things that we individually (and subjectively) perceive as worthy of being changed or improved. Anita feels that way about video games, and I agree with her. I think that we could stand to have more diversity in video games, and that some tropes reinforce the absence of diversity.The Lyre said:
I would agree or disagree, depending on your specific definition of harmful. I would agree that it is very disrespectful, that it is callous and thoughtless, but I am not entirely sure that it is actually harmful, or that, if it is harmful, it is excessively so.The Lyre said:
This is not what I want. What I want is diversity (so the trope stops being a problem because it's no longer gendered). You can address a problem without censorship. I have never advocated, nor will I ever advocate, the use of censorship to solve a problem. I advocate for education and diversity. This is what Anita is doing: she is educating the viewer on why she feels that this or that trope is in poor taste, and providing examples of its unilateral genderedness. This way, she inspires viewers to take a proactive role in reshaping the future of the medium without having to do any form of censorship.The Lyre said:
That's exactly what I'm saying. The trivialisation is a matter of respect and empathy. The developers are displaying disrespect, thoughtlessness and a callous disregard for the treatment of violence against women. This in no way affects men; it affects women, because it sends the image (again, unintentionally) that the game industry could not care less about women, and only considers them as worthy of being victims and prizes for the male hero. This has nothing to do with the effect video games have on men, it's about the way the game industry creates an unfriendly and unappealing environment for women through the use of gendered tropes, and the inadvertent image that this sends of the gaming industry itself.The Lyre said:
I think that what Anita is saying in those points is that the trivialisation of violence against women sends an image of callous disregard towards violence against women. I think that her point is not that video games are responsible for violence against women, I think that what she's saying is that video games fail to treat violence against women with respect and gravity, and instead use it as a way to further a male hero's narrative, and for cheap shock value. She never mentioned that any of these things are correlated with real-life violence, what she said was that the image that the gaming industry is projecting when it does this is one of callous insensitivity for the plight that so many women have to go through. Women, in real life, get kidnapped, raped and murdered distressingly often, and what Anita is getting at, I think, is that the gaming industry exploits these events for cheap shock value and for the sake of the male hero's narrative, which sends the message that the gaming industry could not care less about the feelings of the women who suffer this violence in real life.The Lyre said:
The point, I feel, is not that "video games create violence!", but "video games are callous and disrespectful in the use of violence!"
If you think videogame stories are just unsophisticated and convinient motivations for the player we have very different positions. I also don't agree 90s action movies have simple stories. Most of the best narratives in action movies belong in the 90s.generals3 said:
Games where you're avenging a male family member or friend, or where his death is used as an early plot point?Jarimir said:
Red Faction: Guerrilla
The Sabotuer
Deus Ex (ok, technically, you can save him, but it's hard, and he's incapacitated)
Final Fantasy XII
The Witcher
Assassins Creed 2
...
Because a male character would never ask to be killed...Jarimir said:
Because VIDEO GAMES ARE FUN! I don't play Mario to rescue a Princess and satisfy the male power fantasy Anita would like to believe I have. I play it because I love the level design. A lot of the games that Anita rips on fall into the John Carmack school of thought...Jarimir said:
So to write the plot, a lot of game companies will hire the worst writers on the planet. There are some exceptions, but, again, most of what Anita brings up fall into the half-assed plot category. That's my problem with this video. She's picking on games that simply don't deserve to be defended. Duke Nukem Forever sucked? Sorry, but I figured that out TWO YEARS AGO...John Carmack said:
There is actually a Joan d'Arc game out there, sadly it's a jrpg where she's a damsel in distress...Halyah said:
Anyways, don't really have a view in this conflict, I can't stomach the videos since her voice is so damn boring.
Captcha: blinded by science
Really? I am? Wow
I can agree with a lot of games having lazy writing, that much is obvious. I dunno how much acting on power fantasies in games affect real life because I have no evidence either way but I think its safe to agree some better writing is needed if we are going to continue using these tropes. They can be done well given enough time and when they are fleshed out hopefully other stories can start being tol in new and creative ways.
My suspicion is that Nintendo cracking down on all their IPs on YouTube might have had something to do with this video getting smited.
That being said, thought provoking material, and a necessary insight; I had no idea just how problematic this trope can be.
That being said, however, I'ma g'head and stand up for Max Payne, because while is wife and daughter do get traded up for his vengeance motivation, their murder happens as a direct result of his wife actually investigating the production of V, an investigation that, while not formal, was nevertheless conducted independently.
So... yeah.
Preeow.
That being said, thought provoking material, and a necessary insight; I had no idea just how problematic this trope can be.
That being said, however, I'ma g'head and stand up for Max Payne, because while is wife and daughter do get traded up for his vengeance motivation, their murder happens as a direct result of his wife actually investigating the production of V, an investigation that, while not formal, was nevertheless conducted independently.
So... yeah.
Preeow.
Because there are people who care about these things.DjinnFor said:
I never said "ought". I stated the exact opposite: if you don't want to care about it, don't. If the pseudo sales pitch fails to convince you to care about the subject, that's okay.DjinnFor said:
I don't know if "lazy" is fair.Dark Knifer said:
It's straight out of folklore, is evident in every narrative driven medium and has survived precisely because it's effective. I have a feeling that we're not as complicated as we'd like to believe. We can craft more convoluted stories, but we can't make ourselves care about those stories if they don't work for us on a base level.
Example: Did you play Metal Gear? What stands out in your memory as effective in that narrative? The political waffle? Or maybe when Meryl got shot?(it's a 15 year old game, if that's a spoiler... sorry?) If it's not the latter... I don't think I trust you as a person.
Folklore excells at knowing what is important to us, on that base level... I think.
Sis, not bro, but not to worry. Anyway, I misinterpreted your reaction. Apologies. Part of the reason I saw you as being annoyed is that she's not just reading examples from a TV Tropes page, she's identifying and discussing them. It would be more akin to writing a TV Tropes page. However, given that she has plenty more videos still to come, it would again be more akin to writing a series of pages... but with the added expense of video, audio, post-processing, etc.Westaway said:
Why pay her to do it? Honestly, I had never heard of her until I saw people trolling about her on this site while the Kickstarter was running. While I did watch a few of her videos on YouTube subsequently and reckoned that work was worth supporting at a higher level, my main motivation was standing with someone who was being persecuted and showing the people who were abusing her that such actions would only make her cause stronger in the end.
It's worth pointing out that she didn't ask for that much money. She only asked for a few thousand quid to make her videos. And no one had to give her even that. It's not like she felt entitled to even the sum she asked for. She just gave it a try and this is what happened.
I'm sure this has been said before in many different ways on this exact thread, but after the first page of replies I've decided to just skip ahead a bit.
Many games use violence against specific women (loved ones) to justify mass murder done against any man (or with debatable irony, any woman) who stands in the characters way toward gaining their vengeance on the man who used the violence against the specific women (loved ones). When you look at the games through that lens... there's really nothing good to see. Yes, it's terrible that Double Dragon opens with the girlfriend being punched in the guts and kidnapped. Does that justify the violence done to hundreds(?) of guys (and some women, IIRC) in the game ok? What gives the character the right to commit mass murder in the Max Payne - the fact that most of the victims are Mafia or Mercenaries working for a corrupt corporation?
I realize that this video series has a feminist viewpoint, but I think the magnification is a bit too high to be of any decent value; violence against women is merely one of a litany of terrible things in video games. Taking it out and displaying it on its own gives the illusion that is one of the greater issues in video games, when it might not be - mass murder, theft, rampant lawbreaking (trespassing, espionage, fraud, break-and-enter, etc.) are all far more prevalent in games and a majority of victims are male. When looking at video games under the magnification that Sarkeesian is using, these are at least as distressing as the use of women in video games.
Her argument becomes far more powerful when she focuses on the LACK of women in video games, IMO. Particularly in the role of a playable protagonist. If she were to focus on calling for more playable female protagonists - say reverse the roles of Michelle and Max Payne, where Michelle is the cop who comes to find her journalist husband and her infant daughter killed, and goes out to extract vengeance. Maybe the writers would think that wasn't a great way to start the game off with her, so they'd do something else. Move beyond the Woman in Fridge/Damsel in Distress tropes into something different. Quite possibly by focusing on simply having more playable female protagonists, she might be able to break down these tropes far more effectively than simply by pointing them out and saying how theoretically damaging these tropes are.
Many games use violence against specific women (loved ones) to justify mass murder done against any man (or with debatable irony, any woman) who stands in the characters way toward gaining their vengeance on the man who used the violence against the specific women (loved ones). When you look at the games through that lens... there's really nothing good to see. Yes, it's terrible that Double Dragon opens with the girlfriend being punched in the guts and kidnapped. Does that justify the violence done to hundreds(?) of guys (and some women, IIRC) in the game ok? What gives the character the right to commit mass murder in the Max Payne - the fact that most of the victims are Mafia or Mercenaries working for a corrupt corporation?
I realize that this video series has a feminist viewpoint, but I think the magnification is a bit too high to be of any decent value; violence against women is merely one of a litany of terrible things in video games. Taking it out and displaying it on its own gives the illusion that is one of the greater issues in video games, when it might not be - mass murder, theft, rampant lawbreaking (trespassing, espionage, fraud, break-and-enter, etc.) are all far more prevalent in games and a majority of victims are male. When looking at video games under the magnification that Sarkeesian is using, these are at least as distressing as the use of women in video games.
Her argument becomes far more powerful when she focuses on the LACK of women in video games, IMO. Particularly in the role of a playable protagonist. If she were to focus on calling for more playable female protagonists - say reverse the roles of Michelle and Max Payne, where Michelle is the cop who comes to find her journalist husband and her infant daughter killed, and goes out to extract vengeance. Maybe the writers would think that wasn't a great way to start the game off with her, so they'd do something else. Move beyond the Woman in Fridge/Damsel in Distress tropes into something different. Quite possibly by focusing on simply having more playable female protagonists, she might be able to break down these tropes far more effectively than simply by pointing them out and saying how theoretically damaging these tropes are.
Fantastic video, I think. At this point, she's going to great lengths to point out the problem... which is leading some people to say, "Well, offer some SOLUTIONS, then!"
But some of these folks don't realize just how many people actively deny there's a problem at all. She's done some pretty exhaustive work to dig up examples (old and new) of these unfortunate plot devices, how and when they happen, and why they're harmful. What's more, she's done it in a very even-handed way, considering the subject matter.
Sometimes you can't rush into advising folks on how to fix a problem. Sometimes you have to chip away, bit by bit, at the wall they put up to hide the fact that the problem exists. That's all she's working on at this point. I imagine this will continue in the next video, when she (I believe) points out just how difficult it is to find gender reversals of these tropes -- and, inevitably, the fact that the games actually play that reversal for laughs, or otherwise paint it as outlandish.
But some of these folks don't realize just how many people actively deny there's a problem at all. She's done some pretty exhaustive work to dig up examples (old and new) of these unfortunate plot devices, how and when they happen, and why they're harmful. What's more, she's done it in a very even-handed way, considering the subject matter.
Sometimes you can't rush into advising folks on how to fix a problem. Sometimes you have to chip away, bit by bit, at the wall they put up to hide the fact that the problem exists. That's all she's working on at this point. I imagine this will continue in the next video, when she (I believe) points out just how difficult it is to find gender reversals of these tropes -- and, inevitably, the fact that the games actually play that reversal for laughs, or otherwise paint it as outlandish.
Ya know for all the criticisms leveled at Anita's videos, her damsel in distress line isn't bad, and I look forward to part 3. Especially part 3 since I'm pretty well aware of the DiD trope that's irrirated me for ages, and am interested in it's reversals even though they'll likely be games I've never heard of.
I pretty much agree with her points.
There really is no right way to approach the matter is there, tough? Even though I preferred Jim Sterling's approaches on the matter as he diversified his points a bit, was briefer, and more entertaining people tear into him too.
Even if you don't agree on the presentation, as Jim said, even if it's through gritted teeth, can we at least agree there's a problem?
I guess there'll always be dudebros defending the status quo. Or people who're bored and will argue just to argue.
I pretty much agree with her points.
There really is no right way to approach the matter is there, tough? Even though I preferred Jim Sterling's approaches on the matter as he diversified his points a bit, was briefer, and more entertaining people tear into him too.
Even if you don't agree on the presentation, as Jim said, even if it's through gritted teeth, can we at least agree there's a problem?
I guess there'll always be dudebros defending the status quo. Or people who're bored and will argue just to argue.
She did a kickstarter and raised 150k and so people are critical of the content. It is really quite lazy and the supposed credentials of her are why people give a shit. Basically she has pull in reaching a lot of people and seems to be the media's darling.Aethren said:
Honestly with 150k i could survive for 13 years without doing a thing. So to pay that much for the development of a video series, this seems fairly basic and can be accomplished by reading tv tropes.
My opinion. This program as a kickstarter was a waste of money/time. could do alot with 150k, but was that necessary for the good of a script, a camera, and some editing. Nope. Anyways looks she again went with blatant examples, over emphasizes the place of video games in society like it's actually something to be taken seriously, as well as using non recent games, because recent ones have advanced in her favor. Acting basically like a historical documentary if you think about it.
And finally, she's pulling on the strings of "anti-feminism" throughout games and criticizing them, even though every other thing like movies and shows, use the exact same story plots, such as the revenge for [insert dead loved one of the protagonist] to attempt to get the audience engaged. It's the same old shitt, and you can't expect it to change because you want it to. Might be because the stories for games use these unoriginal plots to support the actual cause for the gameplay.
Which is what most people come for anyways. Though it wouldn't hurt for good story every now and then.
And finally, she's pulling on the strings of "anti-feminism" throughout games and criticizing them, even though every other thing like movies and shows, use the exact same story plots, such as the revenge for [insert dead loved one of the protagonist] to attempt to get the audience engaged. It's the same old shitt, and you can't expect it to change because you want it to. Might be because the stories for games use these unoriginal plots to support the actual cause for the gameplay.
Which is what most people come for anyways. Though it wouldn't hurt for good story every now and then.
Some of what she wants to present as novel, such as her self-coined "damsel in the refrigerator" can be traced back, in a fashion, to something as ancient as Orpheus and Euydice. And that's a powerful story. Now, I will give her immense credit and say that she's specific and adds the general qualification that she's talking about women who are abused or explicitly assaulted in an excessively violent manner and that makes things more clear. The issue is the notion of helplessness but the greater danger is violence towards women.
But if you look at individual elements, a larger question becomes execution in some regards. Hence the above reference to Orpheus. Hades has Eurydice's soul. He is one a quest to bring her back. On a surface level, that's the damsel trope. But if you asked if that was a problem, I doubt she'd say it was. Except, perhaps, insofar as it idealizes patriarchal values (and that'd be a fair argument point). Where does the difference rest? Well, Orpheus doesn't head down to the Underworld and cut a swath through demons and beat Hades. He played some music. And even then, he loses her.
Now, this is not said to dismiss what she's saying. The main point stands: the issue of violence towards women and the notion that are expendable/helpless but when it comes to a story, be it games, movies, oral tradition, literature, or anything else...the sum of the whole is worth more consideration than the pieces, I feel. Or, rather, the relative worth of the individual pieces is to be judged on the merit of how well they served the whole.
This is why I can deal with Zelda getting captured near the end of Ocarina of Time while getting pissed off at how women are treated, overall, in God of War.
But if you look at individual elements, a larger question becomes execution in some regards. Hence the above reference to Orpheus. Hades has Eurydice's soul. He is one a quest to bring her back. On a surface level, that's the damsel trope. But if you asked if that was a problem, I doubt she'd say it was. Except, perhaps, insofar as it idealizes patriarchal values (and that'd be a fair argument point). Where does the difference rest? Well, Orpheus doesn't head down to the Underworld and cut a swath through demons and beat Hades. He played some music. And even then, he loses her.
Now, this is not said to dismiss what she's saying. The main point stands: the issue of violence towards women and the notion that are expendable/helpless but when it comes to a story, be it games, movies, oral tradition, literature, or anything else...the sum of the whole is worth more consideration than the pieces, I feel. Or, rather, the relative worth of the individual pieces is to be judged on the merit of how well they served the whole.
This is why I can deal with Zelda getting captured near the end of Ocarina of Time while getting pissed off at how women are treated, overall, in God of War.