Trump allegedly requests foreign election interference

[Agema]

So, just in case anyone has missed the news...

Someone in the federal government has asked for whistleblower protection following overhearing a conversation Trump had with a foreign leader involving inappropriate content.

Subsequent press investigations suggest that this conversation was with the president of Ukraine. It is alleged that Trump repeatedly requested that the Ukrainian authorities aggressively investigate Hunter Biden (son of leading Democratic Party 2020 contender Joe Biden) for corruption. Rudolph Giuliani, Trump's personal lawyer, has also been lobbying Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-trump-and-giuliani-pressured-ukraine-to-investigate-the-presidents-rivals/2019/09/20/0955801c-dbb6-11e9-a688-303693fb4b0b_story.html

 

[tstorm823]

So you'd prefer not to know if the Vice President had held foreign aid hostage to benefit his son's business?

 

[Saelune]

So you'd prefer not to know if the Vice President had held foreign aid hostage to benefit his son's business?

So you'd prefer not to know if the President had held foreign aid hostage to benefit his own business?

 

[Agema]

So you'd prefer not to know if the Vice President had held foreign aid hostage to benefit his son's business?

I'd love to - through the proper channels.

After all, proper channels exist precisely to help prevent corruption by individuals using shady back-room deals for their own benefit.

 

[Avnger]

So you'd prefer not to know if the Vice President had held foreign aid hostage to benefit his son's business?

Except we do know. And he didn't. VP Biden was only one member of an international group of our allies calling for increased anti-corruption measures.

Let me guess, you believe "Hillary personally sold uranium directly to Russia" too? And that it excuses Trump's actions with Russia?

 

[tstorm823]

Except we do know. And he didn't. VP Biden was only one member of an international group of our allies calling for increased anti-corruption measures.

Let me guess, you believe "Hillary personally sold uranium directly to Russia" too? And that it excuses Trump's actions with Russia?

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/may/07/viral-image/fact-checking-joe-biden-hunter-biden-and-ukraine/

"They were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, ... we?re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, ?You have no authority. You?re not the president.? ? I said, call him. I said, I?m telling you, you?re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you?re not getting the billion. ... I looked at them and said, ?I?m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you?re not getting the money.? Well, son of a *****. He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time."

This isn't "Hillary personally selling uranium to Russia." This is Joe Biden bragging that he personally did this. Could Biden be lying and/or delusional. Absolutely. But I don't know that. In that interview, Biden specifies that he was pushing for military aid to Ukraine for 2 years before he was out of office. He also takes credit for the push for the aid he was bragging about holding hostage. And that timeline conveniently enough lines up exactly with his son taking the position in Ukraine. I'm aware it also lines up with Russian aggression into Ukraine.

But that only makes it seem more likely Biden was acting in his son's interest. His son took a prominent position in Ukrainian fossil fuels, and almost at the same time, Russia's pressuring Ukraine with aggressive military presence, and Joe Biden starts taking a very hands on role on Ukrainian policies? It's not even really an accusation of immorality to suggest Biden may have been considering his son's interests over US interests. And when personal interests might conflict with your political duties, that's when you let someone else take charge.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Well duh. Ukraine is just a Russian proxy, so he was just asking Russia to interfere again

 

[Seanchaidh]

Well duh. Ukraine is just a Russian proxy, so he was just asking Russia to interfere again

I really hope you're not serious.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Well duh. Ukraine is just a Russian proxy, so he was just asking Russia to interfere again

I really hope you're not serious.

Its the Ukraine, an ex-Soviet puppet state invaded by the Russians a few years back. Of course they're just a Russian puppet.

 

[Hades]

Yeah that seems like something Trump would do.

Its funny. Trump fans are outraged at the accusations that Trump would conspire with other countries for electoral interference on his behalf but here we have Trump being caught red handed while trying to conspire with another country to get electoral interference on his behalf.

So we will always know that Trump is indeed open to other countries interfering with American elections if it benefits him. Somehow I don't think Trump's cult will mind. They always deny wrongdoings of the great leader and if they are proven they merely change tactics and insist its no big deal.

 

[Hades]

So you'd prefer not to know if the Vice President had held foreign aid hostage to benefit his son's business?

Wouldn't that line of thinking carry the risk of hypocrisy for Trump supporters? After all during the whole Russia thing Trump voters themselves preferred not to know about it. With a lot of corruption regarding Trump they prefer not to know it.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Well duh. Ukraine is just a Russian proxy, so he was just asking Russia to interfere again

I really hope you're not serious.

Its the Ukraine, an ex-Soviet puppet state invaded by the Russians a few years back. Of course they're just a Russian puppet.

You know that the Ukraine is a lot larger than just the Crimea, right? The government that literally fought both rebels and (apparently) Russian soldiers over the Crimea is still there. And it still claims the Crimea as its own. That's not "a puppet of Russia."

 

[tstorm823]

Wouldn't that line of thinking carry the risk of hypocrisy for Trump supporters? After all during the whole Russia thing Trump voters themselves preferred not to know about it. With a lot of corruption regarding Trump they prefer not to know it.

I don't think that's true. I don't think Trump supporters put their fingers in their ears about the Russia thing at all. I think lots of people, myself included, got exceptionally tired of news pieces claiming to have the smoking gun to get Trump impeached when they had nothing and just wanted easy clickbait money from reddit, but that's not preferring not to know about corruption. That's just being burned out on lies.

 

[Hades]

Wouldn't that line of thinking carry the risk of hypocrisy for Trump supporters? After all during the whole Russia thing Trump voters themselves preferred not to know about it. With a lot of corruption regarding Trump they prefer not to know it.

I don't think that's true. I don't think Trump supporters put their fingers in their ears about the Russia thing at all. I think lots of people, myself included, got exceptionally tired of news pieces claiming to have the smoking gun to get Trump impeached when they had nothing and just wanted easy clickbait money from reddit, but that's not preferring not to know about corruption. That's just being burned out on lies.

I don't quite think that its. I don't get the impression a lot of people were getting exhausted. The impression I got was a knee jerk reaction about the president who openly cuddled up to Putin, Who's security chief got fired within days for having Russian contacts, who's sons met up with a Russian envoy and who fired an FBI boss for not sabotaging the investigation got investigated about possible ties to Russia.

It very much struck me as putting their fingers in their ears because all those actions combined at least warranted the question if something suspicious was going on but that very question angered people from the start.

 

[tstorm823]

I don't quite think that its. I don't get the impression a lot of people were getting exhausted. The impression I got was a knee jerk reaction about the president who openly cuddled up to Putin, Who's security chief got fired within days for having Russian contacts, who's sons met up with a Russian envoy and who fired an FBI boss for not sabotaging the investigation got investigated about possible ties to Russia.

It very much struck me as putting their fingers in their ears because all those actions combined at least warranted the question if something suspicious was going on but that very question angered people from the start.

Did it? Did it anger people from the start? Let's do some google searching with custom timeframes. Timeline [https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/us/2016-presidential-election-investigation-fast-facts/index.html]. The question of Russian collusion was being investigated already in 2016 before the public knew anything about it. Worth noting, you do get some kneejerk dismissal about Trump paying Russian hookers to urinate on Obama's hotel bed, because of course you do, that's incredibly stupid. Anyways, the investigation was fully public knowledge in like January 2017. At that point, evil mastermind Fox News itself was asking questions about Trump and Russia. In February, you had exchanges like this one [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-fox-news-shep-smith-defence-russia-press-conference-video-watch-a7585041.html]. Then in May, as Mueller is getting appointed special counsel, you start to see some pushback, until you finally get serious backlash to the Russia investigation in October 2017 [https://www.vox.com/2017/10/31/16571350/fox-news-mueller-credibility]. That's 5 months into the Mueller probe, and 15 months since the FBI started looking into connections between Trump and Russia. And that probe continued for another year and a half. That's not a kneejerk defense of Trump. That's skepticism only after months of not tying Trump to Russian collusion, followed by years of "just give it a rest, Jesus Christ."

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Well duh. Ukraine is just a Russian proxy, so he was just asking Russia to interfere again

I really hope you're not serious.

Its the Ukraine, an ex-Soviet puppet state invaded by the Russians a few years back. Of course they're just a Russian puppet.

You know that the Ukraine is a lot larger than just the Crimea, right? The government that literally fought both rebels and (apparently) Russian soldiers over the Crimea is still there. And it still claims the Crimea as its own. That's not "a puppet of Russia."

Oh yeah for sure, but I have no faith that Trump honestly thinks the Ukraine is who he really wants to ask. Why would the Ukraine want him reelected if he was elected with the help of the Russians? Yeah, he's not asking the Ukraine for help, he's asking their naughty neighbor.

 

[Agema]

Its the Ukraine, an ex-Soviet puppet state invaded by the Russians a few years back. Of course they're just a Russian puppet.

Russia invaded Ukraine precisely because it was slipping from Russia's grasp as a puppet.

Ukraine has become split between traditional Russian influence, and wanting to move towards the EU. Russia invaded Crimea because a pro-EU party won elections to run the country and started redirecting foreign policy. Crimea contains Russia's key naval base for the Black Sea (leased from Ukraine) in Sevastopol, so the threat to having its base removed was deemed a major geopolitical threat. (And to be fair, about 70% of the population of Crimea identifies as Russian: it was administratively gifted to Ukraine from Russia in the 1950s under the USSR, the USSR of course not expecting to break up.)

Russia then also kicked off the rebellion / quasi-invasion in eastern Ukraine as another attempt to destabilise the pro-EU forces controlling the country. Ironically, of course, stripping the more pro-Russian elements of Ukraine from Kiev's control reinforces the pro-EU dominance of the country. But anyway...

 

[Agema]

Impeachment discussions ahoy!

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

So you'd prefer not to know if the Vice President had held foreign aid hostage to benefit his son's business?

What if I told you that the Ukrainian prosecutor in question was fired because he was *not doing enough* to investigate Hunter Biden's former boss, who was credibly accused of corruption, money laundering and other crimes?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-anticorruption-effort-in-ukraine-overlapped-with-sons-work-in-country-11569189782

 

[tstorm823]

What if I told you that the Ukrainian prosecutor in question was fired because he was *not doing enough* to investigate Hunter Biden's former boss, who was credibly accused of corruption, money laundering and other crimes?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-anticorruption-effort-in-ukraine-overlapped-with-sons-work-in-country-11569189782

I still think it's perfectly worth questioning Joe Biden's role in Ukraine. The conflict of interest in Joe Biden personally spearheading US policy in Ukraine while his son took a lucrative position in that country doesn't disappear. I certainly agree that makes the narrative of "Joe Biden gets rid of prosecutor to keep his son out of jail" pretty unlikely, but you can ask the question of Biden's motives without that specific conclusion.