In a recent interview a Turbine exec said that they would try to get back international distribution rights for some of their games. Now they have a lawsuit with Atari who is publishing LotRO in Australia by the way. Even if this is about DDO I think there is more to this than just a license problem.
Turbine Sues Atari Over DDO: Unlimited
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
You are mistaken. The game remains exactly the same in terms of adventuring. All the same dungeons. Everyone's character's are coming to the newly named game. Even the subscription model for current subscribers remains the same (if they want it to be). There is no axing going on. It is literally exactly the same game that's been around for three years.Therumancer said:
What is changing (other than the name), is that you can now play for free. Free players can use micro-transactions to open up new areas, buy equipment, new races and classes, and so on. So you can play some of the game for free, other parts you have to purchase. Subscribers get access to the entire game as they always have. As subscribers, they also get a monthly allowance of points to buy stuff that they don't already get for free (dyes and such that cost the free players actual money).
That's the only difference.
Well, that's your opinion. To me, DDO was and remains the funnest MMOG ever made, but of course that is just my opnion
If you go in with the preconceived notion of a WoW like game, you are going to be disapointed. DDO is not that sort of game, and was never meant to be (LOTRO might be more your style).I think most people's turn off to DDO revolved around the forced grouping aspect (D&D, at its heart, is a group game, and DDO tried to mimic that, to its expense, I think). The devs (finally) realized that despite being a multiplayer game, most people like to play MMOGs solo (the two biggest MMOGs out there, WoW and LOTRO are both heavily solo oriented games). They've taken steps to make the game much more solo friendly, which I think will draw in more people (along with the FtP model, of course). They are opening up a brand new server based on the preliminary response, which is a good sign.
Yeah, that would be Atari. They've been trying to kill it since Day 1. Hence, the lawsuit. Read over the filing and you will understand exactly why this game is not bigger than it is.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/08/26/Atari.pdf
What would you have done different? D&D is about dungeon running, and DDO stays true to that. I'm not sure how else the game could have been done. I've always thought Turbine did a brilliant job translating rules that were designed for pen and paper play into a multiplayer video game format (not an easy task, as those rules were never meant to be applied in such a venue).
It is clear you dislike DDO, but at least try to understand at least the basic facts in the issue.Therumancer said:
As I posted earlier, Turbine stopped having exclusive rights to use D&D in MMOs in Jan 2006.
What would you have done different? D&D is about dungeon running, and DDO stays true to that. I'm not sure how else the game could have been done. I've always thought Turbine did a brilliant job translating rules that were designed for pen and paper play into a multiplayer video game format (not an easy task, as those rules were never meant to be applied in such a venue).[/quote]
Actually I tend to disagree about D&D being soley about "Dungeon Running" as it evolved beyond that a long time ago, and the DM's guides and stuff even go out of their way to make a point about that. Even when getting into modules and stuff there has grown to be a great variation in what you can do. Now granted, like any fantasy RPG there are still going to be "dungeons" to explore but there is a lot more than just "you are in front of a dungeon, do you want to enter?".
My problem with Stormreach started with the lack of a persistant world. Basically the entire thing was that you had a SINGLE hub from which there were a number of single-dungeon instances which you would run over and over again. Then once you got to a certain point
you'd move from one town square to another and do the same exact thing. Basically it was non stop dungeon grinding. It annoyed me substantially and I'm a guy who doesn't paticularly mind grinding.
Other MMORPGs have their dungeons and instances, but also have a world you can wander around in, explore, and do quests and such. Now granted, a lot of quests basically amount to "go there and kill 10 of these, and come back" though there are a lot of variations on that, and World Of Warcraft for example has gotten great at keeping things interesting within that formula (which is why it continues to succeed). In Stormreach you don't even have that.
Part of the fun of an MMORPG is like how in World Of Warcraft you can ride the tram between Stormwind and Ironforge so you don't have to walk. The first few times you do that it's awesome, and it's also a big deal when your on a new server or when the game was just starting out.
In Stormreach, I failed to see what really made that world Eberron. I couldn't walk around Eberron and see the stuff that should be in the regions of Eberron. I couldn't ride an elemental powered locomotive like I could the Tram in World Of Warcraft (or if I could, I never found it, and I played for a while). Things that made Eberron unique like Dragonmarks simply weren't present.
What's more part of the fun of an MMO is to both play solo and with groups, and in Stormreach I felt pigeonholed into grouping to do anything. Before you comment about me being anti-social and missing the point of an MMO, I've been an endgame raider in multiple games. I LIKE playing with other people, just not non-stop.
When I played DDO the basic feel I got was that it was like City Of Heroes, but without the city to actually explore, and a more twitchy aiming mechanic (at least for me). The dungeons I did had some interesting gimmicks, but didn't excite me. What's more there really wasn't much in the way of inspiring lewt to keep me wanting to grind them. Half the fun of raiding in WoW or other games is that each boss is a puzzle to be solved, but once you do it there is also the element of the interesting things it can drop, and seeing/gathering the loot set from the boss at least gives you some motivation to do it. I just didn't feel motivated in DDO.
What's more is that Eberron is supposed to have a sort of "Fantasy Pulp" feel, what I saw was pretty much generic fantasy except for the inclusion of the Warforged pseudo-golem guys. I didn't see anyone sporting variations on 1920s fashion and the like (going with the elemental train system, and magic-industrial elements). In Eberron as *I* understood it from the books I had my starting mage or sorceror for example would be more likely to say wear a pinstriped suit under an overcoat (Fedora optiona) than walk around in a bloody robe with scrolls hanging off of it.
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To put things into perspective, I do not understand why for a game like that they did not use Forgotten Realms or another pure fantasy setting if they wanted the game to be like that.
Now granted, DDO has doubtlessly evolved since I played, but when I did the game I played for about two months (my freebie, and one besides) and it didn't strike me as even having enough potential to justify it. I ran enough dungeons to have a nice little pile of loot for the time, and since I knew I was never coming back I dumped it onto some new player who was just starting the same type of character that I was, and said farewell.
I guess part of the problem is that the game did not meet my expectations.
One thing I *WILL* say though is that some of the graphics were pretty good. In the beginning tavern where you did the tutorial thing for example there was this mirror right after where you walked in, and it should show a reflection of your character. Best emulation of something like that I had seen in an MMO at that point. Very, very cool. Some designers at least were trying. But in the end I just didn't like the entire product.
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To itemize what I wouild have done differantly at the end of this:
#1: I would have given the game a persistant world and quests more than just a hub surrounded by dungeons. Oh sure, I'd expect dungeons to be there, but I'd also expect to be able to go wandering the countryside.
#2: I would have paid more attention to actually developing the things that make the Eberron world unique, including the art style and social conventions. As well as doing whatever it took to put a focus on things like Dragonmarks.
#3: While not a specific thing to Eberron, I see no reason why a game today cannot have randomly generated missions along with the pre-developed dungeons, and the abillity to operate in a persistant world all at once.
Anarchy Online and City Of Heroes (the former was ironiclly better at it IMO) had a system where you could pretty much just spawn your own instance full of baddies and treasure to go run off and kill alone or with friends for some quick action, as opposed to having to head off to a more complicated pre-made dungeon, or go travelling around the countryside doing random quests. Basically I feel a proper game should have all of these things.
Fair enough. It may not be the game for you then, as essentially, running dungeons is what DDO is all about, heh. There are some other aspects to it now (what are called "adventure areas"), but the crux of the game is running "dungeons" (I use that term generically, many of the "dungeons" are actually outside areas). And yeah, while the city is large, it is in fact pretty much just a hub for dungeon (or adventure areas) entrances. There is not much else there (other than the shops and taverns, of course).Therumancer said:
Well, you do now. They addressed that with the adventure areas. Personally, I don't really like them much (I prefer the "dungeons" myself), but I understand why they are there, for those that are coming into the game for that sort of WoW experience.
Hmm, odd. Both of those things are there. Dragonmarks are in the game (maybe they weren't when you tried it out, I don't remember when they were added, but it was some time ago). Also, the airships are in several places (though they are not interactive, they just "zone" you to different places).
Yeah, see my previous comment on this upthread. And I totally agree with you. Turbine finally figured this out and took steps to make the game much more solo-friendly, which has happened over time, but most significantly with this upcoming release due out next week (with something called "Dungeon Scaling").
I don't really understand this complaint. DDO is nothing if not loot-centric. Bosses have ALWAYS dropped interesting loot, especially the raid bosses. In fact, the designers have gotten grief about too much loot floating around. The game is very definitely "Monty-Haul" in comparison to a normal D&D game.
Because they couldn't. WotC wanted to push Ebberon, and that's the license they authorized. It was not a decision made by Turbine.
That's cool. And perhaps it's not your style of game. I would suggest, however, based on your comments, that you give it another shot when it goes free. They have addressed a great number of your complaints, and mabye you will enjoy it more now that it's matured. Or perhaps not. But it doesn't cost you anything to try it out
You can now do this. There is plenty of countryside to explore. Altough it's still not really in the style of WoW (you won't wander around finding quest givers in that style you might be used to). But a lot of it is pretty amazing to see (the new beginner area has a nice explorer section to it).
I think they've done that. There are Dragonmarks in game (and yes, you can have them on your character), and you will see some NPCs with them, esepcially in the house areas (Phiarlan etc).
This one I don't agree with. While some randomization has made its way into some of the dungeons (where traps are, for instance), mostly they are hand crafted. And I personally prefer them that way. In my experience, "Random" == "Generic and Boring". Give me hand crafted dungeons every time
But that's just my opinion.Anyway, maybe check it out after the 9th. You might be pleasantly surprised.
I don't mean to be the main DDO cheerleader here, but your comments are commonly echoed by others, and many of them have been addressed by the devs long ago, so it's definitely worth another look for those that tried it and had those same complaints.
RonHiler said:Fair enough. It may not be the game for you then, as essentially, running dungeons is what DDO is all about, heh. There are some other aspects to it now (what are called "adventure areas"), but the crux of the game is running "dungeons" (I use that term generically, many of the "dungeons" are actually outside areas). And yeah, while the city is large, it is in fact pretty much just a hub for dungeon (or adventure areas) entrances. There is not much else there (other than the shops and taverns, of course).Therumancer said:
Well, you do now. They addressed that with the adventure areas. Personally, I don't really like them much (I prefer the "dungeons" myself), but I understand why they are there, for those that are coming into the game for that sort of WoW experience.
Hmm, odd. Both of those things are there. Dragonmarks are in the game (maybe they weren't when you tried it out, I don't remember when they were added, but it was some time ago). Also, the airships are in several places (though they are not interactive, they just "zone" you to different places).
Yeah, see my previous comment on this upthread. And I totally agree with you. Turbine finally figured this out and took steps to make the game much more solo-friendly, which has happened over time, but most significantly with this upcoming release due out next week (with something called "Dungeon Scaling").
I don't really understand this complaint. DDO is nothing if not loot-centric. Bosses have ALWAYS dropped interesting loot, especially the raid bosses. In fact, the designers have gotten grief about too much loot floating around. The game is very definitely "Monty-Haul" in comparison to a normal D&D game.
Because they couldn't. WotC wanted to push Ebberon, and that's the license they authorized. It was not a decision made by Turbine.
That's cool. And perhaps it's not your style of game. I would suggest, however, based on your comments, that you give it another shot when it goes free. They have addressed a great number of your complaints, and mabye you will enjoy it more now that it's matured. Or perhaps not. But it doesn't cost you anything to try it out
You can now do this. There is plenty of countryside to explore. Altough it's still not really in the style of WoW (you won't wander around finding quest givers in that style you might be used to). But a lot of it is pretty amazing to see (the new beginner area has a nice explorer section to it).
I think they've done that. There are Dragonmarks in game (and yes, you can have them on your character), and you will see some NPCs with them, esepcially in the house areas (Phiarlan etc).
This one I don't agree with. While some randomization has made its way into some of the dungeons (where traps are, for instance), mostly they are hand crafted. And I personally prefer them that way. In my experience, "Random" == "Generic and Boring". Give me hand crafted dungeons every time
Anyway, maybe check it out after the 9th. You might be pleasantly surprised.
I don't mean to be the main DDO cheerleader here, but your comments are commonly echoed by others, and many of them have been addressed by the devs long ago, so it's definitely worth another look for those that tried it and had those same complaints.
I did leave a long time ago, as I said I played two months when it first came out. Two months is enough time to have given something a fair chance I feel. If they improved it afterwards that is cool, but I've since decided to play other games. They lost my involvement when they released it in that state.
As far as the random dungeons go, what I am talking about is having that in addition to handcrafted dungeons. I do not feel you need to have either/or.
For example it's all well and good to say travel all the way to the fringes of Wrath Of The Liche King to run Ulduar, or go to a heroic dungeon of your choice, or whatever else. But to do that you need to find a balanced party, and then are basically going to be comitted to a fairly long production. Simply killing in the world is also fun, but depending on how many people are in an area (which is part of a persistant world) it may or may not be viable, and maybe you just don't want to go wandering around a zone.
Say you login, there are two people free in your guild, and all three of you are DPS. Being able to group up, head to a terminal, and then have the game randomly generate a dungeon full of stuff to kill and a set reward for clearing it, is a fine way of doing things, especially if you've only got an hour to play.
I'm not saying that all there should be are random instances, but I feel that random instance generators are a good tool that should be included as part of the package of any MMO. No randomly spawned "Nethack" type dungeon is ever going to be as good as a handcrafted one, but it can be a nice, quick time killer.
SomeBritishDude said:
Let it go already. It is getting tiring seeing every article involving Turbine having someone complain about the March Mayhem. As we have said a thousand times, the developers did nothing wrong, any readers that did were banned. Consider this a warning! The ban rules are still in effect from the event.CountFenring said:
Oh and Atari deserves being sued just for the DDO Collectors Edition Box.
While I have enjoyed the play style of DDO and I think some of the things being added to DDO: Unlimited make it very good. I think Wizards requires a bit of the blame on how DDO turned out. Why on earth did they force the game into Eberron. Eberron is boring. Forgotten Realms would have been a muck more attractive setting.TechNoFear said:
This news really explains the last year and I think you'll see a lot of DDO fans who were upset with Turbine this past while come to some realization that it is not always Turbine's fault DDO is not growing the way they would like.
Good to see Turbine standing up for their game.
Good to see Turbine standing up for their game.
What's actually changing between Stormreach and whatever they're calling it now is that the free trial. DDO, like pretty much every other MMO, has always had a free trial. The only difference is that now you can just keep playing past ten days and never pay if that's what you'd like. You'll be more level locked and if you want to try a new dungeon you'll have to pay for it separately. Subscribers get access to everything included in the subscription.
You're basing who should win a lawsuit based on some March Mayham voting scheme setup by The Escapist? You would potentially put peoples jobs on the line just for that? What's wrong with you?CountFenring said:
Oh, but I did. I bought a full month after playing the week of trial.runtheplacered said:
But I think that the sloooow leveling, grinding exp quests and very hard battles for bards pushed me away. Even though I love DnD.
Also, they managed to do something better than Fallout Earth - make a MMO seem empty and shallow.
Either way someone might lose jobs, if Turbine wins more people at Atari will probably lose their jobs than the losses at Turbine if Atari won. Unless something has changed, I don't believe Atari has launched a counter-suit, Atari winning would only cost Turbine in court fees. If Turbine wins, Atari will be forced to pay a large amount of money, which I suspect they don't have, meaning they would probably have to go into bankruptcy of some kind and lay off many more employees than Turbine would have to if they lost.runtheplacered said:
Wow, thanks to all the posters here. I recently remembered about the ddo becoming free to play and decided to check it out. So i find this thread very interesting and informative. I tried ddo not long after it first came out and decided it just wasnt for me. (honestly i have tried and discarded many MMOs, including WOW). Now with the FTP option I have decided to give it another shot. And several of the concerns i had have been addressed already. I am now cautiously optimistic giving it another chance.
As far as the lawsuit: I am quite unhappy that turbine and atari didnt just work things out on their own and put the effort into making the gaming experience better. no matter which company wronged the other, its the gamers that suffer.
best of luck to both Atari and Turbine in this. I sincerely hope that they both continue to make games and support the ones they already have.
As far as the lawsuit: I am quite unhappy that turbine and atari didnt just work things out on their own and put the effort into making the gaming experience better. no matter which company wronged the other, its the gamers that suffer.
best of luck to both Atari and Turbine in this. I sincerely hope that they both continue to make games and support the ones they already have.
If D&D:Online was based in the Forgotten Realms then I would have played it forever. It looked great and the gameplay was great too. But the setting is what killed it IMHO. Ebberon blows dead dog. They should have made it just one huge world like WOW but based in the Forgotten Realms. That would have been pure WIN. But alas, it is now pure LOSE.
I have to agree in large with axia777. A huge Forgotten Realms world to explore (ala: WOW or EQ2) would have made a world of difference, no pun intended. I love the mechanics of DDO, the combat engine is awesome! Even the quests are very enjoyable... initially there were far too few quests, but that has changed somewhat. But it's the setting that kills it for me, and the races. D&D to me has never been a world full of Drow, in mass, grouping with goodly races, or Warforged running around at all. Many of the lands don't have an epic feeling to me, and many just feel burnt or wasteland'ish. It's just not familiar enough, and doesn't work for me. It's easier to stretch my idea of a fantasy world into games like WOW or EQ2. At least the player races are more familiar.
As far as job losses go, I would have to think Atari runs the risk of the biggest layoffs in all of this too.
And as for gamers? Well we all lose. There are so, so many people out there that have dreamed of a Forgotten Realms MMO for ages. It's shocking it hasn't happened already. And I understand many gamers don't like FR, but for the majority I think, it's where we got our beginnings. Who cares if it's going to become a MMO? Why do some posters dis that so badly? If they don't like, just don't buy/play it... There will always be other games. And nobody has stated that there will never be another RPG of NWN. People get too worked up.
I for one would just like to see what a FR-MMO would look like.
Aesleal
As far as job losses go, I would have to think Atari runs the risk of the biggest layoffs in all of this too.
And as for gamers? Well we all lose. There are so, so many people out there that have dreamed of a Forgotten Realms MMO for ages. It's shocking it hasn't happened already. And I understand many gamers don't like FR, but for the majority I think, it's where we got our beginnings. Who cares if it's going to become a MMO? Why do some posters dis that so badly? If they don't like, just don't buy/play it... There will always be other games. And nobody has stated that there will never be another RPG of NWN. People get too worked up.
I for one would just like to see what a FR-MMO would look like.
Aesleal