Turtles in RTS. Best tactic?

[Bato]

I like turtling, mostly in multiplayer games, it drags the game on instead of having it done within minutes.

Personally, I prefer to play defensively until my opponent runs out of resources.
Though in Kane's Wrath, I prefer to get a bunch of Purifying Flame units and steamroll.
Scorching everything in my path.

 

[Blind Sight]

I like turtling, mostly in multiplayer games, it drags the game on instead of having it done within minutes.

Personally, I prefer to play defensively until my opponent runs out of resources.
Though in Kane's Wrath, I prefer to get a bunch of Purifying Flame units and steamroll.
Scorching everything in my path.

I've used that too, but against ZOCOM it's a suicide tactic I find, all you have to do is spam orcas to butcher an entire army quickly.

 

[ploppytheman]

I feel kind of obliged after everyone saw my other turtle thread yesterday but I've been thinking. In most RTS game I play I almost always play my style of turtle. And most of the time it works really well as long as you dont screw up. Why is it people are almost always opt for the rushing tactic? Its easily defeated as long as were not talking those little zergling things in Starcraft as they were a bit imbalanced.

Some games you cant turtle effectively like Company of Heroes. I swear to god the American infantry commander was designed to stop turtling. Anytime you try to build up a good defence, block off routes etc they just build a 105 howitzer and smash them to bits rom across the map.

The real point of this thread though is to find out what your views are on the tactic. Is being a turtle the best tactic or simply the least douchebag one. (im looking at you scorpion rush). Also if anyone has played the LOTRO Battle for middle earth what do you think about that tactic where the guy plays as men and builds streaks of walls across the map?

"zerglings are imba" /facepalm

This is how RTS should work. You have tech, economy, army, and defense. When you focus on one you lose on the others. If you sit on one base and defend your enemy takes the entire map and gains tech/army/economy. If you try to tech you lose army/defense and possibly economy. If you go army you lose the other three.

Its like you only have 100 beans and you gotta decide where to place your beans. Defense usually sucks as a human opponent can negate it easy. If you are playing vs computers then, well don't, it teaches you bad tactics that only work vs idiot machines lol.

No where did I say turtling involved sitting in the area you started. Most times I build small defenses then capture resources then defend those then capture some more. Once Ive got enough layer up the defences. I disagree that it only works Vs computers. Many times Ive used it effectively in matches against players because theyve either tried to rush me and got destroyed or tried to steamroll me but by the time their force was great enough my defences were very strong

Ok then I'll explain it. You take a node and built defenses. I take a node and get army for map control or possibly tech. You take another node and built defense. I take two more nodes, more army and maybe more tech. I am winning. Because you sat back and tried to build defenses if I scout it, which I should, then I am free to expand more with less army because I know you spent resources/time on defenses so I don't need as big of an army to maintain my bases. Army doubles as defense and is mobile. Defenses are only defenses and are almost always immobile.

Most games tech beats defenses at a certain level, or you can amass a large enough army to beat them. Defenses in good RTS, like SC, are there to support, deter, or delay enemy attacks and spending on defense is almost always a bad thing.

 

[Snork Maiden]

Turtling will almost always lose out to a boom, though. Having all the walls in the world doesn't really help if you're opponent is collecting resources from every drop spot on the map.

The real point of this thread though is to find out what your views are on the tactic. Is being a turtle the best tactic or simply the least douchebag one. (im looking at you scorpion rush). Also if anyone has played the LOTRO Battle for middle earth what do you think about that tactic where the guy plays as men and builds streaks of walls across the map?

I only really play RTSes over network, and to be honest turtling is much less a douche strategy then than rushing is. Making the battle protracted if you're all sat in the same room and looking for a fun afternoon is no bad thing.

 

[Legion IV]

I feel kind of obliged after everyone saw my other turtle thread yesterday but I've been thinking. In most RTS game I play I almost always play my style of turtle. And most of the time it works really well as long as you dont screw up. Why is it people are almost always opt for the rushing tactic? Its easily defeated as long as were not talking those little zergling things in Starcraft as they were a bit imbalanced.

Some games you cant turtle effectively like Company of Heroes. I swear to god the American infantry commander was designed to stop turtling. Anytime you try to build up a good defence, block off routes etc they just build a 105 howitzer and smash them to bits rom across the map.

The real point of this thread though is to find out what your views are on the tactic. Is being a turtle the best tactic or simply the least douchebag one. (im looking at you scorpion rush). Also if anyone has played the LOTRO Battle for middle earth what do you think about that tactic where the guy plays as men and builds streaks of walls across the map?

You lose all credibility for saying Starcraft is imbalanced. Starcraft is the most balanced RTS ever made it has outlasted every RTS and is still played on a huge competitive level.

 

[TriggerHappyAngel]

i always use the turtle strategy first (while i secretly build an army) and then i launch a sudden sneak assault from a remote corner of the map ... pretty good tactic if i say so myself :]

 

[ploppytheman]

Also there is no best strategy for RTS, RTS is about reacting to your opponent and being a few steps ahead of them. If I see a one base zerg with 12+ zerglings I assume bling bust and put a pylon in my choke and possibly get cannons. If I see the zerg has expanded I can either expand or go phoenix to overlord harass, aka using my army/tech to stop his economy. If I am playing protoss vs protoss and I see my opponent go 2gate I block my choke with a pylon and go cyber > blink stalkers. If I'm fighting a terran I kill his SCV's building his barracks and stand where he wants to build his tech lab/reactor and keep my probe alive to see what he makes.

RTS is about strategy, countering, and just out-thinking/outplaying people. Turtling may be good in very small amounts like waiting for a critical tech aka timing push, or walling off a base at the start for a very short amount of time.

 

[tetron]

I wouldn't say there is a "best" tactic in an rts. There is always a "best way" to do a tactic which can mean all the difference. Like in the case of turtling, sitting around in your base feeling safe is fine but even then you have to understand that if you're going to win you gotta take a risk, risk = reward amirite ? But what people do to much of when turtling is to build stationary defenses, such as turrets, cannons, and the like. If you're really set on turtling I would recommend building only a few stationary defenses for a "backbone" and then comprising most of your defense out of mobile units like infantry and aircraft. Then once you build that up you can strike out with a scouting party of units and still have your stationary defenses around to hold off the enemy if things get hairy, at least long enough to get some support.

 

[ploppytheman]

i always use the turtle strategy first (while i secretly build an army) and then i launch a sudden sneak assault from a remote corner of the map ... pretty good tactic if i say so myself :]

...if you are sitting in your base you have LESS resources and you spent MORE on defense. Its not a secret you are making an army...

 

[naab]

Turtling in my opinion is very effective and not just simply in RTS's. However it is even effective if not more effective in more fast paced games.

To clarify turtling is a way to built a near impenetrable defense and watch your opponent dedicate 60-90% of their efforts, resources, and commitment to one all out to attack to hopefully wipe the turtle. However when they have exhausted all of their abilities is where the counter-attack takes place. Now someone above said something along the lines of "Where's the I win part?" But that was answered as well.

Turtling slows down the tempo o the game, and that is when Turtling is at most effective. People who play RTS's casually normally don't enjoy spending a lot of time against one opponent, in fact they would much rather obliterate their opponents in the most speediest, aggressive, and easiest way. So when a turtle comes along and puts them in their tracks its becomes a scenario where the 'rush tactic' fails, then they must built up their forces and try again, then build up their forces and try again until they can find a weak spot.

Someone who is an expert on turtling should be able to nullify any and all different attacks from multiple different angles and even cover their defenses. This then leads the opposing player into something I like to call, "The Impatient Zone." Happens in Poker too, and any game where someone can survive by dedicating the least amount of effort, or resources against an opposing player. This is the turtler's goal to lead their opponent into this zone so they launch an all-out-attack in an attempt to break the turtler's defenses.

Once the turtler defeats this offensive rush, is when the turtler has no exhausted his/her opponent's resources enough for a decent enough counter-attack, and win. Simply because in a battle of attrition, the one who needs less water and food will win.

(This does not apply to Starcraft/Age of Empires)

 

[Georgie_Leech]

Against a computer, sure. I find that Human opponents need a bit more flexible of a defence, preferable something creative that they can do jack squat about. See, the thing about turtles is that they basically form a wall, which is embarassingly obselete in anygame with flying units.

Recipe for success:

1. Build large airforce.

2. Ignore the enemies impressive fortress and fly directly past it.

3. Assualt the inner base, crippling prodction and resource gathering.

4. Gloat to taste.

I have yet to see a single game with air units where this didn't work.

...Except for Civ, but that's more of a board game than tactics.

 

[Liberaliter]

I think turtling is a valid tactic and can work very well in some games. Eventually you made need more resources but if you have been sitting in a base building up a strong army then you should have no trouble using hit and run tactics to take resources around the map. But like all tactics it can be countered if the enemy can wear your defences down.

 

[Liberaliter]

Against a computer, sure. I find that Human opponents need a bit more flexible of a defence, preferable something creative that they can do jack squat about. See, the thing about turtles is that they basically form a wall, which is embarassingly obselete in anygame with flying units.

Recipe for success:

1. Build large airforce.

2. Ignore the enemies impressive fortress and fly directly past it.

3. Assualt the inner base, crippling prodction and resource gathering.

4. Gloat to taste.

I have yet to see a single game with air units where this didn't work.

...Except for Civ, but that's more of a board game than tactics.

What about Anti Air units?

 

[TriggerHappyAngel]

i always use the turtle strategy first (while i secretly build an army) and then i launch a sudden sneak assault from a remote corner of the map ... pretty good tactic if i say so myself :]

...if you are sitting in your base you have LESS resources and you spent MORE on defense. Its not a secret you are making an army...

i never make that "secret" army in my base, i always build it in a remote area ... the army in my base is used as a decoy

 

[not_the_dm]

On Supreme Commander you basicaly have to turtle for a while so that you cand build enough to kill their ACU. I tend to sit there for an hour or so and then just use blitzkreig style tactics, ie. 30 strategic bombers or 3 Galactic Colossi and 5 flying fortresses. If it's a naval map I go for the 2 battleships, 6 destroyers, 6 cruisers, 18 frigits and 24 attack subs (24 attack boats if I'm the Aeon). If I get to that point I win.

No, seriously. I've never lost from being in that position, even when they launched a nuke just before I launched my assult.

 

[minimacker]

I used to be an Elder Turtle. But many of the newer RTSes has simply dropped that sort of resource system. So I had to force myself over two sweating years to abandon that strategy.

It was so hard too, I can't even look at myself in the mirror any more... *Breaks into tears*

 

[ploppytheman]

Turtling in my opinion is very effective and not just simply in RTS's. However it is even effective if not more effective in more fast paced games.

To clarify turtling is a way to built a near impenetrable defense and watch your opponent dedicate 60-90% of their efforts, resources, and commitment to one all out to attack to hopefully wipe the turtle. However when they have exhausted all of their abilities is where the counter-attack takes place. Now someone above said something along the lines of "Where's the I win part?" But that was answered as well.

Turtling slows down the tempo o the game, and that is when Turtling is at most effective. People who play RTS's casually normally don't enjoy spending a lot of time against one opponent, in fact they would much rather obliterate their opponents in the most speediest, aggressive, and easiest way. So when a turtle comes along and puts them in their tracks its becomes a scenario where the 'rush tactic' fails, then they must built up their forces and try again, then build up their forces and try again until they can find a weak spot.

Someone who is an expert on turtling should be able to nullify any and all different attacks from multiple different angles and even cover their defenses. This then leads the opposing player into something I like to call, "The Impatient Zone." Happens in Poker too, and any game where someone can survive by dedicating the least amount of effort, or resources against an opposing player. This is the turtler's goal to lead their opponent into this zone so they launch an all-out-attack in an attempt to break the turtler's defenses.

Once the turtler defeats this offensive rush, is when the turtler has no exhausted his/her opponent's resources enough for a decent enough counter-attack, and win. Simply because in a battle of attrition, the one who needs less water and food will win.

(This does not apply to Starcraft/Age of Empires)

What? I always turtled when I was a casual RTS user and most people did that too so they could see huge battles with the big units. In fact if you play starcraft all the noobs have NR 20min which means you don't attack for 20 minutes and they play on MONEY MAPS so they don't have to expand and can turtle. Rushing a dedicated turtle is bad play unless you found a hole. You expand and macro when they turtle.

There is no offensive rush. Any decent player takes map control and resources and swoops out of the sky like a badass, grabs the turtle out of the water flies high as it can and drops the turtles on rocks and swoops down and eats its guts NOM NOM NOM.

 

[ploppytheman]

i always use the turtle strategy first (while i secretly build an army) and then i launch a sudden sneak assault from a remote corner of the map ... pretty good tactic if i say so myself :]

...if you are sitting in your base you have LESS resources and you spent MORE on defense. Its not a secret you are making an army...

i never make that "secret" army in my base, i always build it in a remote area ... the army in my base is used as a decoy

Then you are turtling, spread out, and have less resources. Thats actually worse. And scouting includes scouting everywhere, I doubt you can hide your buildings from me which tell me what you are building.

 

[FightThePower]

Depends on the game really. Trying it in C&C3 would be a terrible idea, but I've seen it used very effectively in games like AOE2.

I think it depends mainly on the strengths of the base defenses relative to the units, the effectiveness of artillery and the player you go against. AI will happily throw unit after unit at your wall of death, human players tend to be much smarter.

And really, turtling is the rock of RTS strategies. Beats rushing (scissors) but loses out to economy boom/rapid expansion (paper).