Twilight Princess Needs a Redux

[Arnoxthe1]

I've been thinking about this for a while today. Looking back on Twilight Princess, I'm really beginning to wish they did a better job with that game as it could have been so much more. There were many points in the game where I was like, holy crap, that was awesome. And I would carry on, getting more and more excited, but sooner or later, something would bring the game back down to kiddy levels and I would get disappointed again.

Spoiler

Zant is the perfect example of this. Specifically, the cutscene right before you fight him. For a long while, Zant was built up as this dark evil silent mastermind behind the scenes. Someone you were prepping up to fight more and more. And finally... Right when you get to him, and that cutscene plays, you think you're going to receive an eloquent dark speech on his motives. Possibly filled with hate or anger or depression or something. But it's like... Someone just immediately flipped a switch and he becomes this completely stupid ****ing bouncy cartoon idiot that you just want to stab in the face. WHYYYYYYYYY?

Why would they do that? It makes literally no sense. And note that I said he was a cartoon idiot. Not insane. There's an important difference. Witch Hazel from Looney Tunes is cartoony. Vaas from Far Cry 3 is insane. See the difference?

But anyway, that's just one thing in a long list of why's that I kept asking when I was playing the game. And the game is filled with so much coolness too. So much potential here. Like the Dark Nut. Freaking love that. Excellent replacement for the Iron Gauntlets in OoT. Loved that Ice Mansion temple. I loved link turning into a wolf. I loved the ending cutscene. I loved Midna's end form. I loved the idea of

Spoiler

Zelda being possessed and being forced to fight her.

I love Link's new mature design. I love brunette Zelda. I thought she looked really good in OoT already but TP Zelda looks even better. I loved that steel wrecking ball you got and smashing the crap out of everything with it even if it was wildly unrealistic. It was just too much fun for me to care. I loved the design of the Temple of Time and how you got into it. I loved how the areas submerged in twilight were eerie shadowy nightmares of what they used to be.

I could go on and on but... It just could have been so much more than what it was. I daresay it could even have been the next OoT. But again, so many bad and weird decisions just kept bringing the game down. And it really is a shame too. Nowadays, most of the Zelda games I see are in the Wind Waker cell-shaded aesthetic. And I, personally, really really don't like that at all.

But anyway, that's my rant. LoZ: TP needs a reboot. It needs more love. It needs more maturity and more consistency.

 

[Drathnoxis]

I liked Twilight Princess well enough, but it did have problems. It's far too late right now, so I'm just going to post a really good critical analysis by Matthewmatosis:


I don't know about a Twilight Princess reboot, though. Wouldn't that actually be an Ocarina of Time reboot, since Twilight Princess was pretty much a reboot of that?

 

[Casual Shinji]

The dungeons were all pretty great and Midna was terrific for the first 2/3 or so of the game. And there's the obvious Zelda magic stll present.

The overworld sucks though, and so does riding Epona. It literally feels like I'm on a wooden horse. Most of the characters are lame, too, apart from Midna, that hefty bar lady, and that baby merchant. And the idea behind Wolf Link didn't seem to be anything more other than 'Wolves are cool'. All you ever do in wolf form is hunt bugs and follow sent trails. Whoopie!

Nintendo is working on an HD remake, so we'll see what mistakes they can iron out.

I liked Twilight Princess well enough, but it did have problems. It's far too late right now, so I'm just going to post a really good critical analysis by Matthewmatosis

Matthew is the MAN!

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Nintendo is rereleasing TP on WiiU.

Anywho, if we basically have a user of this site who made an hour and a half of video defending TP, including some points you've touched upon and I thought the analysis was good so it might be worth listening to. Their Youtube. [https://www.youtube.com/user/EmceeProphIt] I forget their username. I can't really make any points that they didn't already make intheir series.

OK, I just watched those videos and MAN are they good. Especially that fourth one. His interpretation of TP is utterly amazing and actually moved me. Thank you very much for posting that.

However...

While his interpretation of TP is indeed incredible and well thought out and truly touching... I wonder if sometimes, he's looking too much into the story. Our brains are so adept and so wired to see patterns that sometimes, we see connections that don't actually exist... Sometimes, a stick is just a stick. A wolf is just a wolf. A silly overly cartoonish boss battle is simply a silly overly cartoonish boss battle.

It all depends on what the writers originally intended. If they really did intend TP to be interpreted as EmceeProphIt has said, then I say that the story was utter brilliance but was sometimes poorly executed which led to it not being understood really as much as it was intended to be. In which case, it needs to be redone somewhat. The execution needs to be worked on. If they didn't then I stand by what I said even more. That it needed a full redo. And no, a simple HD gloss will not cut it.

Spoiler

For example, EmceeProphIt says that Zant began to act like that in the end because you began to see him for what he truly was. A scared guy who didn't have his own style. Who made a deal with the devil to cover his fear. This is brilliant AND you can still show this without him bouncing around up and down the room like a retard. They need to show this subtly. They can certainly still have him break down but have it be more relatable. More subtle. This would also help in identifying more with him instead of completely alienating the player with these unrealistic unrelatable antics.

So... The whole scene there needs some serious editing. And that's just one spot.

Anyway though. No, an HD version of Twilight Princess is NOT the answer. It'll, of course, just be the same game with all of its problems it had before. Just shinier.

I liked Twilight Princess well enough, but it did have problems. It's far too late right now, so I'm just going to post a really good critical analysis by Matthewmatosis:


I don't know about a Twilight Princess reboot, though. Wouldn't that actually be an Ocarina of Time reboot, since Twilight Princess was pretty much a reboot of that?

I agree and don't with Matt. I watched a little bit of it and I don't agree at all with some of his complaints. Some of them I really do though. Also, he's reviewing the Wii version of the game. TP was actually originally built and originally intended for the GC. Nintendo kind of sprang making a Wii version of the game on the dev team at a kinda bad time.

Anyway though, a lot of people like to compare TP with OoT but in a lot of ways, they really aren't the same. Ultimately, I see TP's relationship with OoT a bit irrelevant when it comes to analyzing TP. It certainly built off of the foundation OoT set but it diverges from it in too many ways for it to really be an effective comparison.

The dungeons were all pretty great and Midna was terrific for the first 2/3 or so of the game. And there's the obvious Zelda magic stll present.

The overworld sucks though, and so does riding Epona. It literally feels like I'm on a wooden horse. Most of the characters are lame, too, apart from Midna, that hefty bar lady, and that baby merchant. And the idea behind Wolf Link didn't seem to be anything more other than 'Wolves are cool'. All you ever do in wolf form is hunt bugs and follow sent trails. Whoopie!

Nintendo is working on an HD remake, so we'll see what mistakes they can iron out.

I liked Twilight Princess well enough, but it did have problems. It's far too late right now, so I'm just going to post a really good critical analysis by Matthewmatosis

Matthew is the MAN!

Wolves ARE cool, man. But yeah, I do agree with Matt though on one thing. How it was really odd that the wolf form didn't have a standard attack to leap on and tear enemies up while they were prone. Even more weird considering that the animation and coding for it was already made. You can see it in play when you tear out those orbs from the chests of those creatures you find wandering around.

But yeah, as I said above, the HD version of the game won't fix anything. It will just make the game shinier and able to be played on a Wii U. That will be it.

 

[Casual Shinji]

But yeah, as I said above, the HD version of the game won't fix anything. It will just make the game shinier and able to be played on a Wii U. That will be it.

Wind Waker HD fixed a lot of issues, it didn't just make it shinier and call it a day. So it depends on whether Nintendo is going to put as much effort into Twilight Princess HD. They could implement the Poe soul rip into regular enemies, and give you the option to skip tutorials. They'll most likely put the inventory on the second screen for easy access.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

I was looking at some videos, and I don't think it needs an HD remake, it looks really good. I'm surprised it held up that well.

Too bad Skyward Sword didn't look as good

 

[Arnoxthe1]

But yeah, as I said above, the HD version of the game won't fix anything. It will just make the game shinier and able to be played on a Wii U. That will be it.

Wind Waker HD fixed a lot of issues, it didn't just make it shinier and call it a day. So it depends on whether Nintendo is going to put as much effort into Twilight Princess HD. They could implement the Poe soul rip into regular enemies, and give you the option to skip tutorials. They'll most likely put the inventory on the second screen for easy access.

Well, I do hope so. However, those are just gameplay changes. The story needs editing too in some places.

I was looking at some videos, and I don't think it needs an HD remake, it looks really good. I'm surprised it held up that well.

Too bad Skyward Sword didn't look as good

Actually, I read up a little on that and the devs went on record to say that TP was, at the time THE BEST graphical Zelda they've ever made. I mean just LOOK:

Spoiler

Once again, I thought OoT looked good, aesthetically. But these guys just proved me wrong.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Actually, I read up a little on that and the devs went on record to say that TP was, at the time THE BEST graphical Zelda they've ever made. I mean just LOOK:

Spoiler

Once again, I thought OoT looked good, aesthetically. But these guys just proved me wrong.

That's not really fair, you didn't show an actual render of Link, just concept art. Twilight Princess Link is one of my least favorites because he always seems to have a dopey vacant expression on his face. [small](Skyward Sword Link isn't much better)[/small]

His hat always seemed odd to me too. It always seemed too full, like he stuffs it.

Spoiler: And what's with his clothes at the start of the game?

And what's with his clothes at the start of the game?

They are so over designed. Like why does he have a rug tied around his waist? It just looks dumb.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

That's not really fair, you didn't show an actual render of Link, just concept art. Twilight Princess Link is one of my least favorites because he always seems to have a dopey vacant expression on his face. [small](Skyward Sword Link isn't much better)[/small]

His hat always seemed odd to me too. It always seemed too full, like he stuffs it.

Spoiler: And what's with his clothes at the start of the game?

And what's with his clothes at the start of the game?

They are so over designed. Like why does he have a rug tied around his waist? It just looks dumb.

I don't know what you mean about his hat but I'll let it go. It's a pretty small detail to me. As to his face, I can see what you're saying. I would honestly blame the GC/Wii graphics for that. Again, I'm just looking at these games, aesthetic-wise. Not graphics-wise. And yeah, farmboy Link looked pretty silly, but then again, maybe that was the point? So you can see him evolve from a silly farmboy to the decked out TP warrior Link we know now.

And heck, we don't even have to talk about Link. Check this other guy out.

Spoiler: Dark Nut

 

[MysticSlayer]

I always thought the Zant going crazy was a decent twist to his character. You spend the whole game thinking he is a cool, calm, collected enemy with immeasurable power. But then you realize he's a sad, crazy puppet of Ganondorf who only acts collected because he believes he has incredible power. Once the illusion is shattered, he reverts back to his crazy self. It also fit very nicely with the general theme of characters having two sides to them.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

I always thought the Zant going crazy was a decent twist to his character. You spend the whole game thinking he is a cool, calm, collected enemy with immeasurable power. But then you realize he's a sad, crazy puppet of Ganondorf who only acts collected because he believes he has incredible power. Once the illusion is shattered, he reverts back to his crazy self. It also fit very nicely with the general theme of characters having two sides to them.

I agree BUT why does he have to act so stupid and cartoony about it? Why didn't they have him break down in a much more relatable way? It made no sense at all to me.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I always thought the Zant going crazy was a decent twist to his character. You spend the whole game thinking he is a cool, calm, collected enemy with immeasurable power. But then you realize he's a sad, crazy puppet of Ganondorf who only acts collected because he believes he has incredible power. Once the illusion is shattered, he reverts back to his crazy self. It also fit very nicely with the general theme of characters having two sides to them.

I agree BUT why does he have to act so stupid and cartoony about it? Why didn't they have him break down in a much more relatable way? It made no sense at all to me.

It did two things. First, it showcased just how little control he actually had. Second, it brought his dual-sided nature to the forefront, just like they did with Link and Midna.

If the game was trying to offer an interesting delve into increasing insanity (like Far Cry 3), then I could understand trying to keep him a little more relatable. But the focus wasn't on insanity, it was on hidden double natures, and his extreme reaction brought that theme to the forefront.

 

[Kae]

I don't think the issues with it can be fixed but then again it is the Zelda game I like the least out of all of the Zelda games I've played[footnote]Every game on the NES, SNES, GB, GBA, N64 and Gamecube, excluding Japan Exclusives, the CDI games and Four Sword Adventures, also I've played Phantom Hourglass on the DS.[/footnote], it's not so much that it's bad but it's just kinda grindy and does nothing that other Zelda games haven't done and everything worse than the other ones, the dark atmosphere was done better in Ocarina of Time and even better in Majora's Mask, the transformations were better in Majora's mask[footnote]In variety, difference in gameplay from the standard form and utility, plus if we count non-zelda zelda-ish games the wolf thing was done better in Okami.[/footnote], alternate version of the same map was done better by Link to The Past, Minish Cap, Ocarina of Time, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons[footnote]Even non-zelda stuff like Metroid Prime 2, Sonic CD and even Shadowman.[/footnote] and even combat which is the thing that this game has that is more fleshed out that any other Zelda game was done better in WindWaker simply because of the way Windwaker was balanced around your entire move-set and Twilight Princess wasn't which funnily enough made it even easier than WindWaker and WindWaker was pretty easy.

Other than having some cool dungeons the game has nothing going for it, don't get me wrong, it's a good game, it's not terrible but having played all those games before it I was so underwhelmed and bored with it, it's funny the Zelda franchise often gets accused of being stagnant and repetitive and Twilight Princess is the only game where I felt that criticism was entirely fair, that being said at least I remember it, I couldn't tell you shit about Phantom Hourglass because I just don't remember it.

 

[Hairless Mammoth]

TP doesn't really need a remake any time soon. Except for the overworld and the horribly long intro/forced tutorial, TP is an excellent addition to the series as it is. There was an actual attempt at giving a handful of characters depth. (Whether or not that was a success is debatable.)

Of the 3D games, TP's dungeons were probably the most varied and original. Even though it follows the typical Zelda themes of forest, fire, water, desert ruins, ice, generic ruins, and wind, most of the dungeons get new twists, and the others are, if nothing else, well crafted and visually pleasing. (fire - mine with big industrial electromagnets throughout, ice - run down mansion in the mountains, wind - floating ruins in the sky where wind gusts are actually expected, generic ruins - major puzzle is getting to a guiding a huge statue from the top floor to the bottom with your new magic statue controlling staff) At least TP didn't give you 2 straight fire dungeons *cough*Skyward Sword*cough*.

Now if they did do a full remake, I could see some changes needing to be done. Zant's thing below, the overworld, and the drawn out tutorial are some things that do need tweaking. At least the HD release will have button and may offer Wii version's motion controls. Maybe the HD port will also address small things like the lack of a way to wait for/change to night (to get Poes and find bugs more easily) and give you a way to call Epona much earlier.

Spoiler: Zant

Though, I agree Zant's meltdown could have been handled better. Does him being a nutjob work? Yes, but the scene lost its weight when he threw a tantrum like a manchild. It's not even really provoked like you would expect, such as after defeating him in a battle. If he didn't jump around, but started talking like a madman (babbling, partially incoherent speach, spouting threats at everyone and everything, etc) then drew his blades and attacked, it would have established the same desired effect as the original scene without ruining the mood.

Spoiler: Other remakes

I'd rather see a full-on remake (as in fully designed from the ground up) of Wind Waker. It is a great game, but the every time I play it, I see how the cut dungeons hurt the pacing and length of the game. It also feels just like Majora's Mask in that the meat of the game is in the sidequests. That isn't necessarily bad, but again MM was designed around few dungeons where WW was not. The HD version puts the remake idea on the back burner, though.

But really, if there are Zelda games in need of a redux they are Link's Awakening, the Oracle Games and the DS games. Link's Awakening and the two Oracle games need one just for updated graphics and the chance at making the originally planned third Oracle game. The two DS games need complete overhauls because the nasty touchscreen-only controls almost seemed out for my/Link's blood and the multi-trip central dungeons sucked, even in Spirit Tracks. SP also need some alternate way around those flute duets the player needs to perform. Breath control is not a skill everyone possesses.

That's not really fair, you didn't show an actual render of Link, just concept art. Twilight Princess Link is one of my least favorites because he always seems to have a dopey vacant expression on his face.

Gah! I forget how derpy he looks sometimes. I'm glad the new title got rid of the unnatural trapezoid/parallelogram eyes that TP Link and Skyward Sword Link have. It made some of their expressions really awkward.

And what's with his clothes at the start of the game? They are so over designed. Like why does he have a rug tied around his waist? It just looks dumb.

I believe the rug tied around his waist is a traditional Japanese fashion (haramaki?). I've see it a lot in Japanese media, worn by swordsman characters. Zoro from One Piece also wears one. (Still, I agree Link's default outfit is way too busy for a ranch hand and looks dumb as hell.)

 

[iller3]

Aesthetics > Graphics

If it actually comes down to a Narrative/World problem or combination of replayability incentives then the bad news there is that there's never been a remake in the history of consoles explicitly only redo those things only. (FF14 kinda rebuilt those things but it wasn't a total reboot into a new game)

 

[Drathnoxis]

I don't know what you mean about his hat but I'll let it go.

Well it's so round, it looks like it's full of something. If his hat was just cloth it would sit a lot flatter. It might fill out a bit and trail behind him when he runs, but when he stops it should flatten out.

As it is it makes me think of a big leech stuck to the back of his head.

It's a pretty small detail to me. As to his face, I can see what you're saying. I would honestly blame the GC/Wii graphics for that.Again, I'm just looking at these games, aesthetic-wise.

You can't really blame the hardware for Link's derpy expressions. I mean, the Gamecube was the same system that gave us Windwaker, that game's Link had the most wonderfully expressive face that hasn't been matched before or since.

Not graphics-wise. And yeah, farmboy Link looked pretty silly, but then again, maybe that was the point? So you can see him evolve from a silly farmboy to the decked out TP warrior Link we know now.

And heck, we don't even have to talk about Link. Check this other guy out.

Spoiler: Dark Nut

Well I won't deny that there are some well designed enemies in the game, actually the enemy designs are probably the best designs in the game. The designs of the other characters range from middling to really freaking weird!

Spoiler: Like this guy.

Like this guy.

Spoiler: And this... thing.

And this... thing.

I don't like the other farm characters on the basis that they all have that dumb square of cloth tied around their middle. I don't get why Nintendo seems to think it looks so awesome, because they carried that style onto Skyward Sword too.

Back on the subject of weird cutscenes, I've always found this one to be utterly bizarre and out of place.
I just don't get how anything that is happening is related to what's being said. Like, what reason is there for Link to be tripping out like that about Ilia while the spirit is rambling about gods and ancient evils. Also 2:53 is another good example of one of Link's derpy faces. I honestly can't tell whether he is supposed to be horrified, or really into seeing all the Ilias.

Really though, judging by Skyward Sword, I wouldn't trust Nintendo to be able to remake Twilight Princess and actually improve it. Twilight Princess contained the start of a lot of minor issues that would later go on to be major issues that severely impacted my enjoyment of Skyward Sword.

I believe the rug tied around his waist is a traditional Japanese fashion (haramaki?). I've see it a lot in Japanese media, worn by swordsman characters. Zoro from One Piece also wears one. (Still, I agree Link's default outfit is way too busy for a ranch hand and looks dumb as hell.)

Looking at images on google, I don't see any haramiki that look as terrible as the ones they wear in Twilight Princess. Like all the haramiki I see actually look like articles of clothing and not like the wearer has just decided to begin strapping random bits of cloth to themselves. Link's 'haramiki' is barely even held up by the other yellow cloth he has wrapped around him, and not only that but I would think it would be very uncomfortable to have that yellow belt thing digging digging into his stomach all day.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Well I won't deny that there are some well designed enemies in the game, actually the enemy designs are probably the best designs in the game. The designs of the other characters range from middling to really freaking weird!

Spoiler: Like this guy.

Like this guy.

Spoiler: And this... thing.

And this... thing.

I don't like the other farm characters on the basis that they all have that dumb square of cloth tied around their middle. I don't get why Nintendo seems to think it looks so awesome, because they carried that style onto Skyward Sword too.

Back on the subject of weird cutscenes, I've always found this one to be utterly bizarre and out of place.
I just don't get how anything that is happening is related to what's being said. Like, what reason is there for Link to be tripping out like that about Ilia while the spirit is rambling about gods and ancient evils. Also 2:53 is another good example of one of Link's derpy faces. I honestly can't tell whether he is supposed to be horrified, or really into seeing all the Ilias.

Oh yeah, that guy. And those... Things. Yeah, totally forgot about them. Again, you're absolutely right. They looking effing stupid. No argument from me there.

As to the video, if you watch it without understanding just what the spirit's trying to communicate then yeah, it looks incredibly disturbing and dark. First time, I saw that, I was like, WTF was that? I did squee though when I saw Dark Link. Darn it, Nintendo, why can't we fight Dark Link again in just one more game FFS? But anyway, once EmceeProphIt explained it all in his video, it made a whole lot more sense and is actually less disturbing once you know just what it's actually portraying. Again though, the game does a bad job of execution in some of its parts, so most players were left disturbed and confused when they saw it, me included.