Two things I don't like about Western Comics

Thandran

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They never seem to end. Or whenever a radical change happens something happens after that returns the situation to the status quo. Like when an important or popular character dies they always find a way via either technology or magic to revive him. Except Uncle Ben. :p

The other thing I dislike is the whole myriad of parallel universes with Earth Reality ranging from original to upside down, twisted out, our world, mix up and etc. I don't know if what I'm reading is canon, non - canon, fan - fiction, side story, what if scenarios and such. Because I don't strictly follow comics I get overwhelmed with all this. Then I stop reading for a bit until I get interested again. Though when I've discovered wikis it seems to fill my apetite because all of the information is presented in a mory... ?cozy? fashion.

Please don't think that I dislike Western Comics in general... heavens no. Some of the characters I actually adore like Bruce Banner and Mr. Freeze. And after reading some of the arc synopsis they seem like really good developed stories. It's just that these two things keep me from truly enjoying Western comics.

I think it's also why I prefer manga. They have a beginning, a middle and end. Of course they're riddled with their own cliches depending on the genre. And there are also some of them that don't want to end even though when they should have (Hajime No Ippo I'm looking at you - 1000+ chapters) but generally you'll find a lot to have 200 chapters and that's that. Varying quality of course.

Maybe that's my problem... I'm only really moderately versed in Marvel and DC universes because I was exposed to them as a child. I recall reading the Watchmen and quite enjoyed it. Think I'll have to find comics like it... so are there any? I've decided to make a topic to ask some of the posters who enjoy comics. :)

Thanks for your answers. :D
 

Queen Michael

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See, my view is the opposite.
First of all, superhero comics generally do their best to revive dead characters, but there certainly are lasting changes. Take a look at the latest issue of X-Men and compare it to what things were like back in, say, 1990. Things are very different. Sure, some franchises don't change as much as others, but why ruin a good setup? Superman works fine the way he is.

And when it comes to manga, well, most manga don't have a beginning and an end as much as they have a beginning and a point where the creator ran out of filler ideas and had to write some sort of conclusion. It's very hard to find a manga that's got a story that's as clear and told as straghtforwardly as a movie or a novel.At least superhero comics don't try to pretend that they're stories with a beginning and an end.

Honestly, that part about having an ending is what bothers me most. I like my superhero comics and don't want them to end. If Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Jerry Siegel, Joe Shuster and the rest of the bunch had used that approach, we wouldn't have any Superman comics today. Or Batman comics. Or Fantastic Four comics. Or Hulk comics. Or X-Men comics. Or Justice League comics. Or Wonder Woman comics. Or any others. That's the biggest problem with manga -- eventually the creators feel that they're done with their creation, and instead of handing over the reins to somebody else to give the readers a fresh and exciting new take on a series, they just decide that we the readers will never get any more adventures with the characters we love again.

It'd be one thing if manga creators actually tried to tell a sraightforward story. But instead they keep on coming up with new villains, or threats to the relationship of the main character and her boyfriend, or whatever, and the pacing of the series is ruined.
 

Genocidicles

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There's more to western comics than Marvel or DC. Half of the comics in my collection have finished, and none of them have parallel universe, what if? bullshit. Well I say comics, but I mean graphic novels... but then half of my graphic novels are just compilations of comics.
 

The Wykydtron

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I can't stand going into a story anywhere but from the start. Hence Western comics are a bit of a nightmare to me. The prevalent font style gets on my nerves too. You know the bold on every other fucking word? I hate that. Small example I came up with.

"Hey Iron Man do want a coffee? It's been ages since my last drink"

Argh, it breaks the pacing instantly, like every bold word acts as a new sentence for me, similar to When People Do This Shit It Is Annoying. I suppose the bold is for speed reading? I do have a quick reading speed but the bold serves to piledrive it into the ground for me.

I also like the way manga is black and white, it looks clean and easy to follow. Sometimes western comics are a complete clusterfuck of colours and I have no idea where to follow the panels.

Y'know when you have to chain four arrows towards panels just to show us where to read, it's kind of bad design.
 

Queen Michael

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The Wykydtron said:
I can't stand going into a story anywhere but from the start.
Funny thing is, I'm a huge superhero comics fan, but this is the reason I don't read the news. There's always a ****load of backstory to get. Like that conflict in the Ireland, between the IRA and whoever the other blokes are. With superhero comics I like the gigantic load of backstory, though. It makes the world feel so real when, say, Spider-Man meets a bunch of heroes and villains and they all have their won backstory which actually exists and can be read by us.

Also: It's really annoying that manga translations are always in American English, There's no real reason for that, other than the publishers being American.
 

TekMoney

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So you're completely ignoring everything that isn't Marvel and DC superhero comics?
 

Grospoliner

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I tend to agree. The open ended nature of the comic books tend to produce a lot of garbage where a focused narrative can excel. However at the same time, without the open ended nature, we would lack a lot of what are considered major creative arcs in comics (Fatal Attractions, Dark Knight Returns, etc). There are some genuinely good arcs which come out of the open ended series. This is where I think what something like the Ultimate (abridged if you will) version should be like, revamped collections of only the best arcs. Make them the definitive version.

But if there was one rule that should be mandatory, is that death is permanent. No matter how popular the character or how powerful that character was. The authors should also avoid the mistake of "faking deaths" as this is no better than killing and reviving characters.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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This seems more a criticism aimed at superhero comics than "Western comics" in general. Look no further than Watchmen for a shut-tight narrative. Ignore the prequel booklets.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Full Metal Bolshevik said:
Queen Michael said:
See, my view is the opposite.
First of all, superhero comics generally do their best to revive dead characters, but there certainly are lasting changes. Take a look at the latest issue of X-Men and compare it to what things were like back in, say, 1990. Things are very different. Sure, some franchises don't change as much as others, but why ruin a good setup? Superman works fine the way he is.

And when it comes to manga, well, most manga don't have a beginning and an end as much as they have a beginning and a point where the creator ran out of filler ideas and had to write some sort of conclusion. It's very hard to find a manga that's got a story that's as clear and told as straghtforwardly as a movie or a novel.At least superhero comics don't try to pretend that they're stories with a beginning and an end.
What? unless you're refering to long running shounen series like One Piece and Naruto. But most manga are pretty straightforward, only bigger than movies, which is interesting because it gives you time to know the characters and the setting. Look at anything by Naoki Urasawa.
I actually prefer anime and TV series to movies because of this. (in a general way obviously).
Nah, I think Queen Michael is right. One of the biggest problems with anime and manga is that many of the authors are absolutely terrible at writing endings. There's a ton of good or great anime where an episode can serve as a clear and perfect ending, and then the anime just continues past that point and ends like 5 episodes later on some stupid bullshit.

Take something super popular like Death Note. It's a really good anime and manga, but it should have ended when L died. Or Bleach (actually, I hate Bleach), it should have ended when Aizen died. Or Gantz, or really, any anime that runs for more than the "standard" 26 or so episodes, and you tend to find that they often have either rushed endings, or just completely unsatisfying ones.

I mean, of course there are tons of exceptions, but for the most part I think that manga authors do have a problem with letting go of their story while it's popular, so they end up stretching the story until there's nothing interesting left, and then finally ending it when it's rather mediocre.
 

Angelblaze

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TekMoney said:
So you're completely ignoring everything that isn't Marvel and DC superhero comics?
Yeah that was the first thought that came to mind - especially since I'm an avid reader of comics like Unsounded, The Young Protectors and Teahouse (yes I know those last 2 are porn, at least they had me emotionally enthralled unlike the Green Lantern movie. Get off it)
 

Queen Michael

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Full Metal Bolshevik said:
What? unless you're refering to long running shounen series like One Piece and Naruto. But most manga are pretty straightforward, only bigger than movies, which is interesting because it gives you time to know the characters and the setting. Look at anything by Naoki Urasawa.
I actually prefer anime and TV series to movies because of this. (in a general way obviously).
Naoki Urasawa is a bad example, because he's better than 99% of all other manga creators (and storytelles from other meda as well, for that matter). (My source on this is having read Pluto and Monster start to finish, the first book of Billy Bat, and the first 12 books of 20th Century Boys.) Every single page he writes serves a narrative purpose, be it to reveal character or forward the plot. He's an exception, not the rule. But I suppose I should provide some examples of what I mean:

Gantz: I've been binging on this manga lately. It really gives me a feeling that the manga creator doesn't really hae any plans for where the story is going at all, adn I say that having read 16 volumes so far.

Hana-Kimi: Full of filler. And more filler.

The Wallflower: A rare positive example. The plot never moves forward, but it never pretends to, either. It makes sure not to ruin a good setup, just like a good newspaper comic strip.

Black Butler: Doesn't go anywhere with the plot for the most part. Great manga, but it really gives me that feeling of a manga creator who keeps making it up as she goes along. Like so many other series, it has a tendency to act like it's got an overarching plot but not keep the pacing of that plot in mind when the individual chapters are written.

Sgt. Frog: Yet another manga that doesn't go anywhere most of the time.
 

diligentscribbler

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I fucking love comics, my favorite medium.

But this Manga vs DC/Marvel bullshit has got to stop its a completely false dichotomy, you know what both are relatively shithouse especially judged wholly on their modern quality.



I know "art comics" aren't for every one but this Marvel/Dc vs Manga things is just so lazy, I mean it completely excludes the European masters like Herge and Tardi or the 60's american new-wave as well as the modern cartoonists like Thompson,Ware and Clowes who regularly take top honors over whatever Dc/Marvel is putting out in a given year by actually trying to make something amazing.

this all makes me very cranky.

I recommend Habibi by Craig Thomspon an entrance level comic into showing what comics can be. Its a gorgeous novel, Thompson uses both Japanese and American conventions so its easy enough to pick up.
 

Baron_BJ

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I'm a huge comic book collector and fan so I shall be your resident smug douche bag for the evening; if you've any further questions just ask. Keep in mind though, I've been awake for over 24 hours so you're going to see some crazy ramblings, so strap in.

Firstly, your comments regarding characters coming back from the Dead; This criticism applies purely to Marvel and DC superhero comics (However the "Big Two" comprise quite literally 70% of all comic books sold and are the only companies that can afford to advertise in any capacity at all, including to actual comic book readers, so when people make this assumption it's more than understandable), although this problem is about as bad as you've heard, although it applies ALMOST exclusively to the main character (or main cast in the case of a team book) and to villains. If you read something from other publishers you're not really going to run into this problem anywhere near as much (unless it was actually part of the plot, like how in a movie you'll see a character fall to death in the 2nd act and then come back to save the main character in the climax of the film).

Secondly, your complaint about having trouble discerning whether or not something is canon/non-canon/alternate universe tells me that you've not really tried to read comics outside of maybe grabbing a single book, reading it and then calling it a day (which is fine, that's how a NORMAL and SANE person would test a product). The whole continuity/alternate dimensions shenanigans is blown out of proportions a lot by comic book readers who are trying to make what is considered by many to be a niche hobby (comics are hardly niche, people may rarely buy the monthly books but TPB sales are quite large, even after the 2006/2007 comics crash, yes comics had a crash, even before the recession which only made things worse) sound really impressive, deep, complex and impressive when it really isn't. Since your statements make it clear you're essentially referring purely to "mainstream" superhero comics then I'll do a brief commentary on that:

Marvel comic book continuity makes it so that everything that's been written has happened and is in continuity. If you want to know how comic continuity works think of it like LOST, except with all the revelations making sense (well, with the rare exception). Think of it like a serialized drama that has now reached its 30th season.

DC continuity is essentially the same although on very rare occasion (years, even decades apart) they'll write a story where reality is re-written or something which changes the past or something like that. If they don't tell you in the story what has changed then you're not meant to know for a while and it will play out in future stories and you're meant to witness for yourself the differences.

Even under these circumstances that means you might just want to read a character that hasn't been around for 30+ years and if you do it all depends on the character and/or series, some series will go on for years/decades and never have any continuity problems that require something crazy to happen.

Thirdly, there's no real way to get alternate universes confused. There's rarely stories told in alternate universes and the few that are told get mini-series (between 4 to 12 issues in length, have a beginning, middle and end, they're not open ended) and these series will more often than not say in a blurb at the start of the story that they're an alternate universe story (and on the back cover if you're reading the TPB/collected edition). They also get special names, like "Superman: Red Son" and if there's an actual sequel (a sequel to this sort of story is rare to the point of hilarity) it will have a naming convention so that potential readers know its a sequel (as well as info on the back/inside saying that it's a sequel), like Marvel's Earth X Trilogy (Earth X, Universe X and Paradise X respectively). DC even puts a giant logo on their alternate universe books to tell readers that they're set in an alternate universe in addition to the blurbs/names.

Have alternate Universes ever had their own continuity with multiple books? Yeah, but they would become part of an "imprint" and they're set apart and named specifically to avoid this sort of confusion, I'll give some real examples:
Marvel 2099 - All the books were set in the year 2099 and every title related to the imprint had 2099 in the title and a giant logo in the corner that said "2099", like "Spider-Man 2099"
Ultimate Marvel - All books had "Ultimate" in the title (eg. Ultimate Spider-Man) until a relaunch where all books had "Ultimate Comics" in the title (eg. Ultimate Comics Spider-Man). Yes, this was a really stupid name change.
MC2 (Marvel) - Set 15 years in the future from a specific point, all books had a giant logo on them that said "MC2".
DC - Has a current ongoing series set in an alternate universe on an alternate Earth, the Book is called Earth 2, it's in the fucking name.

I know people find this daunting despite really being interested and liking the characters (like the OP), but there's no reason to be, it's just been built up by readers to try and make it all seem more impressive.

Finally, comparing most manga and superhero comics doesn't work at all, most manga isn't never ending nor is it intended to be, superhero comics are intended to be that way and have been going on for longer than most current ongoing manga. Comparing non-ongoing manga to non-ongoing, stand alone comic series however is reasonable enough though. There is one section where manga ongoings win hands down though, they don't fuck with the numbering because they're not fucking idiots. You hear me Yankie comic companies? Cut it the fuck out.

The Wykydtron said:
I can't stand going into a story anywhere but from the start. Hence Western comics are a bit of a nightmare to me. The prevalent font style gets on my nerves too. You know the bold on every other fucking word? I hate that. Small example I came up with.

"Hey Iron Man do want a coffee? It's been ages since my last drink"

Argh, it breaks the pacing instantly, like every bold word acts as a new sentence for me, similar to When People Do This Shit It Is Annoying. I suppose the bold is for speed reading? I do have a quick reading speed but the bold serves to piledrive it into the ground for me.

I also like the way manga is black and white, it looks clean and easy to follow. Sometimes western comics are a complete clusterfuck of colours and I have no idea where to follow the panels.

Y'know when you have to chain four arrows towards panels just to show us where to read, it's kind of bad design.
The font complaint. This. This is so god damn mother fucking true.
If the colors are making it hard to see then that just means you've got a gibbering retard for a colorist and even then you shouldn't notice that unless something truly insane is happening on the page or they only got the job by diddling the boss. When color is used effectively though I'd say that it's completely superior. I'd also say that terrible panel layout is hardly unique to comics, god knows I've read enough manga with this problem, although colors only make this problem more confusing.
 

likalaruku

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I read both manga & comics, so I have my gripes about both.

I read a lot of Marvel & Image & Archie as a kid, then gave up on them for manga. Then as an adult I got into DC, then they give me this massing "f**k you" by rebooting the whole thing when it was, for me, getting better & better & I had a strong grasp of personality canon & continuity. I haven't touched a DC comic since. I also keep hearing about all the unsavory changes that happened to X-Men characters since the 90s. I've also always hated inter IP crossovers, moreso with Marvel than with Batman. Sometimes the art is shit, sometimes the inking is shit, sometimes the authors don't keep up with eachother & make huge plotholes that either get retconned or are swept under the rug. & not that it's super important, but 98% of comic book men are hideous. The only things I had to oogle as a teen girl were Gambit, Nightcrawler & Mr. Sinister....then they went & gave him a f**king sex change. Mystique was also the only women I thought was hot.

But I like western comic fanboys more than manga readers, probably because I'm in my 30s & have no patience for teenagers that make up the bulk of otaku these days. Comic fanboys are more inclined to talk about canon things & have serious discussions while manga readers talk about crack pairings & focus on the romance in nonromantic series. Women are also better in western comics. Ever since the 2000s, women in manga have been getting more moe, girly-girly, ditzy, childish, helpless, even the ones that can kick ass are still oblivious & naive with low self esteem.....makes me sick. Lastly, mangas are WAY too short. Luckily I managed to find a few that are still going since the 70s.
 

Squilookle

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The main thing I can't stand about western comics is that it seems like 98% of them are about goddamned superheroes all the time.

I mean come on, change the freakin' record already!
 

likalaruku

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Squilookle said:
The main thing I can't stand about western comics is that it seems like 98% of them are about goddamned superheroes all the time.

I mean come on, change the freakin' record already!
Pretty much. Unless it's from some dinky little 3ed party indie comic publisher, the only western comics out of the norm I can think of are "Sam & Max," "Wonderland" (SLG), "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac," & "Return to Wonderland."

The closest thing to american comics I've read in manga are "Tiger & Bunny" & "GetBackers," whch was a fantastic series with the worst ending this side of Final Fantasy Unlimited.
 

Queen Michael

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diligentscribbler said:
I fucking love comics, my favorite medium.

But this Manga vs DC/Marvel bullshit has got to stop its a completely false dichotomy, you know what both are relatively shithouse especially judged wholly on their modern quality.



I know "art comics" aren't for every one but this Marvel/Dc vs Manga things is just so lazy, I mean it completely excludes the European masters like Herge and Tardi or the 60's american new-wave as well as the modern cartoonists like Thompson,Ware and Clowes who regularly take top honors over whatever Dc/Marvel is putting out in a given year by actually trying to make something amazing.

this all makes me very cranky.

I recommend Habibi by Craig Thomspon an entrance level comic into showing what comics can be. Its a gorgeous novel, Thompson uses both Japanese and American conventions so its easy enough to pick up.
These comics are great. But it's not that manga's shithouse, it's that almost all of the US manga publishers focus on the mainstream stuff. The arty stuff and the original stuff is very rarely translated. That's why I like Vertical; they're the one publisher who focus on publishing manga with artistic value and not just spewing out yet another series about a young boy shoting "I'm going to be the best in the world!" or coocie-cutter high school romance.
 

Queen Michael

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Squilookle said:
The main thing I can't stand about western comics is that it seems like 98% of them are about goddamned superheroes all the time.

I mean come on, change the freakin' record already!
Even if we exclude the alternative stuff, there are lots of non-suoerhero comics. Just take a look at DC's Vertigo line.
Y: The last man; Preacher; Why I Hate Saturn; Transmetropolitan; The Invisibles...

In short, there are lots of non-superhero stuff for anyone who wants it.

And if we don't exclude the alternative stuff, there's enough to satisfy anyone.