Yes, you horrible monster. I bet you play video games for FUN! Kids these days, gosh.bigfatcarp93 said:Oh wow... am I fucked up for laughing at that?
Hey there, people. My name is FalloutJack and I know enough about what this guy's talking about to know that HE KNOWS what he's talking about. It is clear and obvious that he understands his hardware, responsibilities, and himself to a degree more than acceptable by professionals in his field.aelreth said:Quotey
Things are improving, albeit slowly. 150 years ago, black people were considered property. Today, one is President of the United States. 100 years ago, women couldn't vote. Today, three are justices on the Supreme Court. 50 years ago, just being gay was a felony. Today, gays are allowed to serve openly in the armed forces, and several states have given them the right to marry. 100 years from now, who knows? We have a long way to go, but we're definitely making strides.Aardvaarkman said:That's fantasy. It's exactly what the hippies of the 1960s thought, before they grew up and got more greedy and corrupt. There's an old saying about how power corrupts. If anything, society has been on a rightward trajectory, with a resurgence of fundamentalist religion and right wing politics like nothing we saw in the 90s. There are new right-wing (and left-wing, for that matter) nutjobs being born every day. There's no shortage of supply.
When you're young, you have lots of energy, you're generally healthy. You spend a lot of time in school thinking about ideas. Money isn't a big issue, you can survive on very little. As you get older, you have more bills to pay. You might have a boring job that takes most of your energy away. You develop medical conditions, and pay more bills. Maybe have a family to support. You find that your idealism takes a battering from the practical realities of life. That's how it is for most people - just living a modest life and paying the bills is enough. But for the people who are wealthy and connected enough to get into positions of power, the game's completely different. For them, "just getting by" is having millions in the bank and having the power to make or break people.
You don't get into positions of power, whether political or corporate, without sacrificing some ideals. And people will always crave power and money. How many of us would turn down billions of dollars and a CEO position at a tech company, even if it meant us tolerating child labor abuses or environmental destruction in return for profit? How many of our ideals could survive when it comes to the actual practical issues of running a country with a vast military and huge economy? The military-industrial complex does not change course easily, and even if you are the President, you have to make compromises to feed the machine.
Basically, every generation of youth says "things will be better when we young people are running things." The problem is that every generation of young people turns into old people just like the last one. Not that there's anything wrong with being old... lots of good things come with age and experience, like knowing that we've seen all of this happen before.
Having a gun chambered and ready and waiting for the police are not the only options. I think it's considered acceptable behavior to verify the threat, and then go get your gun. You could say that there are situations where this is impossible, but if we're going to escalate hypothetical situations, how would you stop a professional assassin, or arson, or anyone else who made insufficient noise to wake you up, and then killed you without giving you a chance to retaliate? If we operate on terms of likelihood and statistics, I think your protocol is an overreaction, as is your defense of its sensibility and your statement that to think otherwise is absurd.aelreth said:You seem to agree that this demonstrates that guns are dangerous and I should simply wait for the police to arrive while he is free to do anything he wants to do to me and my home.
I think that's absurd.
Again, if gun safety has to be taught, then they have the potential to be unsafe. Like cars and fire and table saws and mountain climbing and skiing and anything else with the potential to cause injury to yourself or those around you.aelreth said:Gun safety is taught through physical correction if safety protocol is disobeyed where I was introduced to it.
That's very cute, making an analogy to something I'm more familiar with. Yes, I do clean the dust out from my keyboard. You see, I use my keyboard every day. In fact, it's essential to my job and education, a big part of my personal life, and to neglect it would result in immediate damage to my happiness and lifestyle. While choosing to remain ignorant of anything isn't something to be proud of, remaining (important choice of words here) ignorant through lack of necessity is certainly not something to be ashamed of either. There are some people who I would expect can speak several languages, or know a great deal about particle physics, or can build a house, but no one can fail to be ignorant of everything, and if one has no need to become familiar with firearms, you can't blame them for not being familiar with firearms. I'm an architect. I know a great deal about the structure of a house. You live in a house, right? Do you know what I know? Maybe. But I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.aelreth said:Choosing to remain forever ignorant of something isn't something to be proud of. Do you use a bottle of canned air on your computer or consoles to get the dust out? All you do is open the firearm, and clear all the dust out.
I assume you are not one of the people that causes dust build up to destroy their electronics due to neglect. Would it be that much of a leap that a mechanical device that is a firearm has the same basic need?
Temporarily, i.e., until the next time it is used.aelreth said:Dropping the magazine and opening the chamber insures no bullets are in it or can enter the weapon. We call it clearing. That makes it SAFE.
Not quite. I don't declare them unsafe, I declare them potentially unsafe. Like any weapon, or any item that has lethal capabilities.aelreth said:You also treat any weapon that hasn't been cleared as unsafe.
So can car safety tips. And yet you still need to take a test and get a license.aelreth said:Gun safety tips can fit on a business card. So long as they are applied. People don't get hurt.
The misuse of the word "qualify" vs. "skilled" was the bulk of my point this is responding to. The lack of commas here made this sentence tough to follow, but I'll do my best. By your own admission, one would only need to go to a range twice a year to be suitably skilled. However, unless that person is deemed responsible, if even only once, by a higher power, they can't be considered qualified to use the item for safety measures, because no one has any word to go on regarding his capabilities but his own. Again, I might have a better response here if you give a better sentence.aelreth said:Yes those individuals and I could then compare service. Are you aware that most military units are only allowed to qualify those 2 times a year that would mean they get no more practice?
I fail to see your point here. Are you saying that putting on a uniform makes you immune to liability? Lawsuits have proven that to not be the case, but the aforementioned qualification discussion makes it clear that I think that those in uniform deserve a bit of trust regarding their actions, at least more so than a civilian.aelreth said:You are aware that if I as a civilian make a mistake and get someone hurt I'm completely liable while the taxpayer is liable for actions that the police do when in uniform right?
I think this is simply a fundamental difference between your opinion of what constitutes acceptable behavior and mine (and Aardvarkman's). And really, everyone I know. The fundamental problem is that, while your crime/time phrase might be reasonable regarding the criminal, it is unfair to the innocent victim. I'm not okay with someone killing me, no matter what penalty the murderer gets. Parents of murdered children are probably not willing to exchange the lives of their children for the punishments that the criminals receive.aelreth said:You do the crime, you do the time. The time (punishment) is complete. The state says, you are free to go.
See above.aelreth said:Make the price greater than one is willing to spend, after all time is money.
The final verification I need to be able to pull the trigger is when they break into my home.144 said:Having a gun chambered and ready and waiting for the police are not the only options. I think it's considered acceptable behavior to verify the threat, and then go get your gun. You could say that there are situations where this is impossible, but if we're going to escalate hypothetical situations, how would you stop a professional assassin, or arson, or anyone else who made insufficient noise to wake you up, and then killed you without giving you a chance to retaliate? If we operate on terms of likelihood and statistics, I think your protocol is an overreaction, as is your defense of its sensibility and your statement that to think otherwise is absurd.
Didn't your parents teach you how to adapt to the world? If your parents did not teach you something maybe you should learn so you can fill the gaps.144 said:Again, if gun safety has to be taught, then they have the potential to be unsafe. Like cars and fire and table saws and mountain climbing and skiing and anything else with the potential to cause injury to yourself or those around you.
Is 144 code for obfuscate? I'm trying to explain gun maintenance.aelreth said:Choosing to remain forever ignorant of something isn't something to be proud of. Do you use a bottle of canned air on your computer or consoles to get the dust out? All you do is open the firearm, and clear all the dust out.
144 said:That's very cute, making an analogy to something I'm more familiar with. Yes, I do clean the dust out from my keyboard. You see, I use my keyboard every day. In fact, it's essential to my job and education, a big part of my personal life, and to neglect it would result in immediate damage to my happiness and lifestyle. While choosing to remain ignorant of anything isn't something to be proud of, remaining (important choice of words here) ignorant through lack of necessity is certainly not something to be ashamed of either. There are some people who I would expect can speak several languages, or know a great deal about particle physics, or can build a house, but no one can fail to be ignorant of everything, and if one has no need to become familiar with firearms, you can't blame them for not being familiar with firearms. I'm an architect. I know a great deal about the structure of a house. You live in a house, right? Do you know what I know? Maybe. But I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.
Then when you are done using it you clear it. Again.144 said:Temporarily, i.e., until the next time it is used.
If it's potentially unsafe, then you take steps to minimize the risk to yourself and those around you. If I follow those three steps on the safety first signs, how would I be a danger?144 said:Not quite. I don't declare them unsafe, I declare them potentially unsafe. Like any weapon, or any item that has lethal capabilities.
You are aware that you are legally allowed to operate motorized vehicles without a license or a permit. This is the case for kids raised on the farm, where they learn early how to take care of the business. These kids are also taught firearms discipline around 7 or 8 years old.144 said:So can car safety tips. And yet you still need to take a test and get a license.
He made the statement that people can't devote that much time to maintain and train with it. I gave him the example of what is the standard for the military.144 said:The misuse of the word "qualify" vs. "skilled" was the bulk of my point this is responding to. The lack of commas here made this sentence tough to follow, but I'll do my best. By your own admission, one would only need to go to a range twice a year to be suitably skilled. However, unless that person is deemed responsible, if even only once, by a higher power, they can't be considered qualified to use the item for safety measures, because no one has any word to go on regarding his capabilities but his own. Again, I might have a better response here if you give a better sentence.
Yes, so long as I follow the protocol, I am not personally liable, the taxpayer pays.144 said:I fail to see your point here. Are you saying that putting on a uniform makes you immune to liability? Lawsuits have proven that to not be the case, but the aforementioned qualification discussion makes it clear that I think that those in uniform deserve a bit of trust regarding their actions, at least more so than a civilian.
In regards to heavy crimes, that's why felonies carry a mark that is very difficult to get rid of.144 said:I think this is simply a fundamental difference between your opinion of what constitutes acceptable behavior and mine (and Aardvarkman's). And really, everyone I know. The fundamental problem is that, while your crime/time phrase might be reasonable regarding the criminal, it is unfair to the innocent victim. I'm not okay with someone killing me, no matter what penalty the murderer gets. Parents of murdered children are probably not willing to exchange the lives of their children for the punishments that the criminals receive.
Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response you've listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements you've quoted with your respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.aelreth said:(1)144 said:Having a gun chambered and ready and waiting for the police are not the only options. I think it's considered acceptable behavior to verify the threat, and then go get your gun. You could say that there are situations where this is impossible, but if we're going to escalate hypothetical situations, how would you stop a professional assassin, or arson, or anyone else who made insufficient noise to wake you up, and then killed you without giving you a chance to retaliate? If we operate on terms of likelihood and statistics, I think your protocol is an overreaction, as is your defense of its sensibility and your statement that to think otherwise is absurd.
The final verification I need to be able to pull the trigger is when they break into my home.
Your opinion is that when I verify the need for the gun, then I go get it.
By that time the person is already potentially on top of me.
Utterly absurd.
(2)144 said:Again, if gun safety has to be taught, then they have the potential to be unsafe. Like cars and fire and table saws and mountain climbing and skiing and anything else with the potential to cause injury to yourself or those around you.
Didn't your parents teach you how to adapt to the world? If your parents did not teach you something maybe you should learn so you can fill the gaps.
(3)144 said:That's very cute, making an analogy to something I'm more familiar with. Yes, I do clean the dust out from my keyboard. You see, I use my keyboard every day. In fact, it's essential to my job and education, a big part of my personal life, and to neglect it would result in immediate damage to my happiness and lifestyle. While choosing to remain ignorant of anything isn't something to be proud of, remaining (important choice of words here) ignorant through lack of necessity is certainly not something to be ashamed of either. There are some people who I would expect can speak several languages, or know a great deal about particle physics, or can build a house, but no one can fail to be ignorant of everything, and if one has no need to become familiar with firearms, you can't blame them for not being familiar with firearms. I'm an architect. I know a great deal about the structure of a house. You live in a house, right? Do you know what I know? Maybe. But I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.aelreth said:Choosing to remain forever ignorant of something isn't something to be proud of. Do you use a bottle of canned air on your computer or consoles to get the dust out? All you do is open the firearm, and clear all the dust out.
Is 144 code for obfuscate? I'm trying to explain gun maintenance.
(4)144 said:Temporarily, i.e., until the next time it is used.
Then when you are done using it you clear it. Again.
Which are you worried as; A potential gun owner, the target, or as a bystander?
As a civilian I am fully liable and accountable for where I point my weapon. This is much the same as accidentally running someone over with a car, in the case of a firearm, rightfully the penalties for my negligent operation with a firearm are much harsher.
As a potential target of someone. Like that assassin you conjured earlier, it doesn't matter the gun laws, if someone has the resources and a deep enough grudge less than a thousand people have the resources to stop that in this country.
You arming yourself makes you a slightly harder target. Why should only the elite have protection?
(5)144 said:Not quite. I don't declare them unsafe, I declare them potentially unsafe. Like any weapon, or any item that has lethal capabilities.
If it's potentially unsafe, then you take steps to minimize the risk to yourself and those around you. If I follow those three steps on the safety first signs, how would I be a danger?
(6)144 said:So can car safety tips. And yet you still need to take a test and get a license.
You are aware that you are legally allowed to operate motorized vehicles without a license or a permit. This is the case for kids raised on the farm, where they learn early how to take care of the business. These kids are also taught firearms discipline around 7 or 8 years old.
If you want to discuss licensing firearms please start a thread and send me a message.
(7)144 said:The misuse of the word "qualify" vs. "skilled" was the bulk of my point this is responding to. The lack of commas here made this sentence tough to follow, but I'll do my best. By your own admission, one would only need to go to a range twice a year to be suitably skilled. However, unless that person is deemed responsible, if even only once, by a higher power, they can't be considered qualified to use the item for safety measures, because no one has any word to go on regarding his capabilities but his own. Again, I might have a better response here if you give a better sentence.
He made the statement that people can't devote that much time to maintain and train with it. I gave him the example of what is the standard for the military.
There is a gulf between qualified and skilled. Have you been to a range yet?
You can stay on the range as long as you want, you can get as skilled as you see fit. Military members are only allowed to have their weapons & ammunition for that for target practice for an extremely finite amount of time and are only issued a limited number of rounds.
(8)144 said:I fail to see your point here. Are you saying that putting on a uniform makes you immune to liability? Lawsuits have proven that to not be the case, but the aforementioned qualification discussion makes it clear that I think that those in uniform deserve a bit of trust regarding their actions, at least more so than a civilian.
Yes, so long as I follow the protocol, I am not personally liable, the taxpayer pays.
(9)144 said:I think this is simply a fundamental difference between your opinion of what constitutes acceptable behavior and mine (and Aardvarkman's). And really, everyone I know. The fundamental problem is that, while your crime/time phrase might be reasonable regarding the criminal, it is unfair to the innocent victim. I'm not okay with someone killing me, no matter what penalty the murderer gets. Parents of murdered children are probably not willing to exchange the lives of their children for the punishments that the criminals receive.
In regards to heavy crimes, that's why felonies carry a mark that is very difficult to get rid of.
I'm not okay with someone killing me or you, so much that I believe that if I threaten your life or break into the sanctity of your home, you are sanctioned morally and legally to strike me down by any means necessary.
I think that you should be able to have the best tools at your disposal to defend your life. You want to cripple me in favor of my attacker.
Waiting for police is something that takes too long when our lives and property are at risk.
The police in the united states have no obligation to protect
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0
I'm afraid you're at a logical impasse. You see, you're not convincing HIM that his argument and way of life is wrong, so you repeating yourself isn't getting you anywhere. You can claim the same, but I believe - as I stated before - that he speaks with knowledge and realism. I think at this point you should either indeed shift your position to try something different or suspend entirely, agree to disagree. Because otherwise, you will go back and forth forever.144 said:Problem
The problem with me repeating myself ad nauseum, obviously, is that I think that he isn't right, and I think it's not okay. I also think he was lying when he said he chambered his gun at every unexpected noise he hears, which is a bad way to make a point. Because I am adamant, and because he has to create circumstances of increasing suspension of disbelief to make a point, and uses personal attacks to avoid having to back up what he says, I won't stop doing this, as both of us have said. You can say that you agree with him, and maybe you do on the philosophical points and fair enough, but he certainly lacks realism.FalloutJack said:I'm afraid you're at a logical impasse. You see, you're not convincing HIM that his argument and way of life is wrong, so you repeating yourself isn't getting you anywhere. You can claim the same, but I believe - as I stated before - that he speaks with knowledge and realism. I think at this point you should either indeed shift your position to try something different or suspend entirely, agree to disagree. Because otherwise, you will go back and forth forever.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
Picking up a pistol, inserting the magazine and chambering the round are 3 different steps. A pistol by itself is an inert piece of metal. Perhaps we misunderstand each other between the points of verify and assess. Verification to me is visual sight of the threat. Assessing is, what's going on? When I am assessing I am going to determine whether or not I; move the pistol closer to me, insert the magazine and finally chamber the round. At this point I may or may not be searching for where I last put my phone and/or putting myself in my first firing position.144 said:The problem with me repeating myself ad nauseum, obviously, is that I think that he isn't right, and I think it's not okay. I also think he was lying when he said he chambered his gun at every unexpected noise he hears, which is a bad way to make a point. Because I am adamant, and because he has to create circumstances of increasing suspension of disbelief to make a point, and uses personal attacks to avoid having to back up what he says, I won't stop doing this, as both of us have said. You can say that you agree with him, and maybe you do on the philosophical points and fair enough, but he certainly lacks realism.FalloutJack said:I'm afraid you're at a logical impasse. You see, you're not convincing HIM that his argument and way of life is wrong, so you repeating yourself isn't getting you anywhere. You can claim the same, but I believe - as I stated before - that he speaks with knowledge and realism. I think at this point you should either indeed shift your position to try something different or suspend entirely, agree to disagree. Because otherwise, you will go back and forth forever.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
[Again, to expect one to go through such lengths as to use peep holes or continual gun-readying, or to claim that he does it himself when it is clearly an exaggeration, is speaking without realism. Anyone who thinks that their owning a gun makes them safe, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that this is a solution that could work for anyone, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that a murder is okay if the murderer is willing to take responsibility, and that that is not a worse outcome than having fewer murders in the first place, is speaking without realism. I am not wrong.]
If more attention comes to my arguments, I could go on, so I will.
That quote, the one you responded to, isn't the one in which I address those issues. The quip below was:aelreth said:Picking up a pistol, inserting the magazine and chambering the round are 3 different steps. A pistol by itself is an inert piece of metal. Perhaps we misunderstand each other between the points of verify and assess. Verification to me is visual sight of the threat. Assessing is, what's going on? When I am assessing I am going to determine whether or not I; move the pistol closer to me, insert the magazine and finally chamber the round. At this point I may or may not be searching for where I last put my phone and/or putting myself in my first firing position.144 said:The problem with me repeating myself ad nauseum, obviously, is that I think that he isn't right, and I think it's not okay. I also think he was lying when he said he chambered his gun at every unexpected noise he hears, which is a bad way to make a point. Because I am adamant, and because he has to create circumstances of increasing suspension of disbelief to make a point, and uses personal attacks to avoid having to back up what he says, I won't stop doing this, as both of us have said. You can say that you agree with him, and maybe you do on the philosophical points and fair enough, but he certainly lacks realism.FalloutJack said:I'm afraid you're at a logical impasse. You see, you're not convincing HIM that his argument and way of life is wrong, so you repeating yourself isn't getting you anywhere. You can claim the same, but I believe - as I stated before - that he speaks with knowledge and realism. I think at this point you should either indeed shift your position to try something different or suspend entirely, agree to disagree. Because otherwise, you will go back and forth forever.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
[Again, to expect one to go through such lengths as to use peep holes or continual gun-readying, or to claim that he does it himself when it is clearly an exaggeration, is speaking without realism. Anyone who thinks that their owning a gun makes them safe, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that this is a solution that could work for anyone, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that a murder is okay if the murderer is willing to take responsibility, and that that is not a worse outcome than having fewer murders in the first place, is speaking without realism. I am not wrong.]
If more attention comes to my arguments, I could go on, so I will.
Being unarmed does not make you safe. It just makes you a sheep. An expectation of less violence simply because you are unarmed means that any enemy can take far more than what was initially expected. Not fighting back also encourages the perp to do this again, in time they will explore new avenues. According to a report by the United States Department of Justice, 38% of assaults and 60% of rapes occur in the home during an invasion. You could also live in an illusion until the time you find yourself in a situation where it would be preferable that you had a gun. If you want to roll the dice, that's on you.
So if a murderer takes responsibility and is executed for his crimes in accordance with the law, that isn't ok? Neither doing that or throwing him in jail for the rest of their life can bring the victim back. If you think that is BS that is a price you pay for living within a society of laws. However if you try to enact your own justice the state takes great issue with that.
after that quote was a list of individual responses to yours. Did you read any of it? Because it wasn't much to read.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
[and more]
Let's talk about basic gun mechanics.144 said:That quote, the one you responded to, isn't the one in which I address those issues. The quip below was:aelreth said:Picking up a pistol, inserting the magazine and chambering the round are 3 different steps. A pistol by itself is an inert piece of metal. Perhaps we misunderstand each other between the points of verify and assess. Verification to me is visual sight of the threat. Assessing is, what's going on? When I am assessing I am going to determine whether or not I; move the pistol closer to me, insert the magazine and finally chamber the round. At this point I may or may not be searching for where I last put my phone and/or putting myself in my first firing position.144 said:The problem with me repeating myself ad nauseum, obviously, is that I think that he isn't right, and I think it's not okay. I also think he was lying when he said he chambered his gun at every unexpected noise he hears, which is a bad way to make a point. Because I am adamant, and because he has to create circumstances of increasing suspension of disbelief to make a point, and uses personal attacks to avoid having to back up what he says, I won't stop doing this, as both of us have said. You can say that you agree with him, and maybe you do on the philosophical points and fair enough, but he certainly lacks realism.FalloutJack said:I'm afraid you're at a logical impasse. You see, you're not convincing HIM that his argument and way of life is wrong, so you repeating yourself isn't getting you anywhere. You can claim the same, but I believe - as I stated before - that he speaks with knowledge and realism. I think at this point you should either indeed shift your position to try something different or suspend entirely, agree to disagree. Because otherwise, you will go back and forth forever.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
[Again, to expect one to go through such lengths as to use peep holes or continual gun-readying, or to claim that he does it himself when it is clearly an exaggeration, is speaking without realism. Anyone who thinks that their owning a gun makes them safe, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that this is a solution that could work for anyone, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that a murder is okay if the murderer is willing to take responsibility, and that that is not a worse outcome than having fewer murders in the first place, is speaking without realism. I am not wrong.]
If more attention comes to my arguments, I could go on, so I will.
Being unarmed does not make you safe. It just makes you a sheep. An expectation of less violence simply because you are unarmed means that any enemy can take far more than what was initially expected. Not fighting back also encourages the perp to do this again, in time they will explore new avenues. According to a report by the United States Department of Justice, 38% of assaults and 60% of rapes occur in the home during an invasion. You could also live in an illusion until the time you find yourself in a situation where it would be preferable that you had a gun. If you want to roll the dice, that's on you.
So if a murderer takes responsibility and is executed for his crimes in accordance with the law, that isn't ok? Neither doing that or throwing him in jail for the rest of their life can bring the victim back. If you think that is BS that is a price you pay for living within a society of laws. However if you try to enact your own justice the state takes great issue with that.
after that quote was a list of individual responses to yours. Did you read any of it? Because it wasn't much to read.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
[and more]
You keep telling me how safe the chambering process makes guns, but knowing how to use something safely doesn't make the item in question inherently safe. If it did, then nothing, by that logic, is unsafe, because for every item there is a person who knows how to operate it. A scientist could tell you all about how carefully they quarantine strains of viruses in the lab, to ensure that nobody gets infected. They handle it safely. But we both know that a virus can be and often is an inherently dangerous thing.
You keep running me through your hypothetical crime scenario, and keep ignoring me when I point out that a hypothetical scenario such as this is easy to conjure up to prove either side. Imagine, as I brought up before (and which you ignored) that instead of you was a paraplegic, or an old couple, one of whom is hard of hearing and the other of whom is deaf, or someone who is bedridden with the flu, or someone who broke their leg or shoulder, or a child who's parents are out, or many, many more examples that would tear your hypothetical walkthrough to pieces?
Being unarmed doesn't make you safe? No shit Sherlock. But let's go over some basic mathematical logic:
If (if A, then B) is true, then that doesn't mean that (if -A, then -B) is true.
( if [unarmed], then [unsafe]) does not mean that (if [not unarmed], then [not unsafe]).
Also,
Being unarmed is what it takes to be a sheep? Really? That's the benchmark?
And what report, exactly, did you read to get those statistics? Please link to it so I can explain thoroughly why it doesn't apply. It certainly wasn't easily found anywhere on the department of justice website. I also think that an illusory world is one where you ignore pieces of what the other guy says and quote bullshit statistics, when there are better, more prevalent ones to be found through the aid of Wikipedia. I also think that an illusory world is one in which you pretend something is safe when it has the potential to kill people. Recently, there was an article where a guy killed himself to prove that guns were safe. I'm sure you have a lot to say about that as well, but if anyone who was present at that incident had then said, "oh, guns are totally safe," they'd be living in an illusory world as well. However, thinking that someone who posts hypothetical situations and declares them as evidence to a point might be making an error in his judgment doesn't put one in an illusionary world at all.
Also, regarding the law thing, I think I'll try again, because more and more you are showing your lack of willingness to read. I think that criminals should be punished. I think that what that isn't called is "law compliance," it's "punished for law noncompliance." Because the victim can't be brought from death to life, the crime can't change from "noncompliant" to "compliant." You implied that it is ok to break the law of you also get punished for it. I'm disputing that. What I'm not disputing is that the punishments of said crimes should be carried out.
Let's return to logic: for this example, C = [justice brought to criminal], V = [justice brought to victim], O = ["it's okay."]
If (C & V), then O.
If (-C & V), then O.
If (C & -V), then -O.
If (-C & -V), the -O.
i.e., V must be true for O to be true as well.
Example 1 represents a case, such as a robbery, where the criminal serves jail time and the victim receives satisfactory compensation for valuables lost and time spent. This only happens if said valuables are replaceable, so damage to one-of-a-kind items, or body parts, will always prevent [V] from being true. This could also represent something like getting a parking ticket for parking in front of a fire hydrant, even though there was no fire.
Example 2 represents a case where a crime was committed, but no harm done, i.e., illegal parking and no ticket issues, but nothing was inconvenienced.
Example 3 is the situation we are discussing, breaking and entering and killing/raping/hurting, and the criminal receiving punishment for it. The criminal got what he deserved, but the victim did not. You say that this is "compliance with the law," I say that this is "a situation we should strive to prevent," even though it's not as bad as...
Example 4, which represents a criminal getting away with a heinous crime. You accuse me of being okay with this, while I say that being not okay with situation 3 doesn't mean that I am okay with situation 4.
Was this clear enough for you? Did you read the whole thing?
I'll take your non-response to the punishment section as conceding.aelreth said:Let's talk about basic gun mechanics.144 said:That quote, the one you responded to, isn't the one in which I address those issues. The quip below was:aelreth said:Picking up a pistol, inserting the magazine and chambering the round are 3 different steps. A pistol by itself is an inert piece of metal. Perhaps we misunderstand each other between the points of verify and assess. Verification to me is visual sight of the threat. Assessing is, what's going on? When I am assessing I am going to determine whether or not I; move the pistol closer to me, insert the magazine and finally chamber the round. At this point I may or may not be searching for where I last put my phone and/or putting myself in my first firing position.144 said:The problem with me repeating myself ad nauseum, obviously, is that I think that he isn't right, and I think it's not okay. I also think he was lying when he said he chambered his gun at every unexpected noise he hears, which is a bad way to make a point. Because I am adamant, and because he has to create circumstances of increasing suspension of disbelief to make a point, and uses personal attacks to avoid having to back up what he says, I won't stop doing this, as both of us have said. You can say that you agree with him, and maybe you do on the philosophical points and fair enough, but he certainly lacks realism.FalloutJack said:I'm afraid you're at a logical impasse. You see, you're not convincing HIM that his argument and way of life is wrong, so you repeating yourself isn't getting you anywhere. You can claim the same, but I believe - as I stated before - that he speaks with knowledge and realism. I think at this point you should either indeed shift your position to try something different or suspend entirely, agree to disagree. Because otherwise, you will go back and forth forever.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
[Again, to expect one to go through such lengths as to use peep holes or continual gun-readying, or to claim that he does it himself when it is clearly an exaggeration, is speaking without realism. Anyone who thinks that their owning a gun makes them safe, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that this is a solution that could work for anyone, is speaking without realism. Anyone who states that a murder is okay if the murderer is willing to take responsibility, and that that is not a worse outcome than having fewer murders in the first place, is speaking without realism. I am not wrong.]
If more attention comes to my arguments, I could go on, so I will.
Being unarmed does not make you safe. It just makes you a sheep. An expectation of less violence simply because you are unarmed means that any enemy can take far more than what was initially expected. Not fighting back also encourages the perp to do this again, in time they will explore new avenues. According to a report by the United States Department of Justice, 38% of assaults and 60% of rapes occur in the home during an invasion. You could also live in an illusion until the time you find yourself in a situation where it would be preferable that you had a gun. If you want to roll the dice, that's on you.
So if a murderer takes responsibility and is executed for his crimes in accordance with the law, that isn't ok? Neither doing that or throwing him in jail for the rest of their life can bring the victim back. If you think that is BS that is a price you pay for living within a society of laws. However if you try to enact your own justice the state takes great issue with that.
after that quote was a list of individual responses to yours. Did you read any of it? Because it wasn't much to read.144 said:Amazingly, I feel that the best argument against virtually every single response [he's] listed here is to say "read the above." I could, with little adjustment, flip the statements [he's] quoted with [his] respective replies to them, and third parties would likely not notice anything strange.
[and more]
You keep telling me how safe the chambering process makes guns, but knowing how to use something safely doesn't make the item in question inherently safe. If it did, then nothing, by that logic, is unsafe, because for every item there is a person who knows how to operate it. A scientist could tell you all about how carefully they quarantine strains of viruses in the lab, to ensure that nobody gets infected. They handle it safely. But we both know that a virus can be and often is an inherently dangerous thing.
You keep running me through your hypothetical crime scenario, and keep ignoring me when I point out that a hypothetical scenario such as this is easy to conjure up to prove either side. Imagine, as I brought up before (and which you ignored) that instead of you was a paraplegic, or an old couple, one of whom is hard of hearing and the other of whom is deaf, or someone who is bedridden with the flu, or someone who broke their leg or shoulder, or a child who's parents are out, or many, many more examples that would tear your hypothetical walkthrough to pieces?
Being unarmed doesn't make you safe? No shit Sherlock. But let's go over some basic mathematical logic:
If (if A, then B) is true, then that doesn't mean that (if -A, then -B) is true.
( if [unarmed], then [unsafe]) does not mean that (if [not unarmed], then [not unsafe]).
Also,
Being unarmed is what it takes to be a sheep? Really? That's the benchmark?
And what report, exactly, did you read to get those statistics? Please link to it so I can explain thoroughly why it doesn't apply. It certainly wasn't easily found anywhere on the department of justice website. I also think that an illusory world is one where you ignore pieces of what the other guy says and quote bullshit statistics, when there are better, more prevalent ones to be found through the aid of Wikipedia. I also think that an illusory world is one in which you pretend something is safe when it has the potential to kill people. Recently, there was an article where a guy killed himself to prove that guns were safe. I'm sure you have a lot to say about that as well, but if anyone who was present at that incident had then said, "oh, guns are totally safe," they'd be living in an illusory world as well. However, thinking that someone who posts hypothetical situations and declares them as evidence to a point might be making an error in his judgment doesn't put one in an illusionary world at all.
Also, regarding the law thing, I think I'll try again, because more and more you are showing your lack of willingness to read. I think that criminals should be punished. I think that what that isn't called is "law compliance," it's "punished for law noncompliance." Because the victim can't be brought from death to life, the crime can't change from "noncompliant" to "compliant." You implied that it is ok to break the law of you also get punished for it. I'm disputing that. What I'm not disputing is that the punishments of said crimes should be carried out.
Let's return to logic: for this example, C = [justice brought to criminal], V = [justice brought to victim], O = ["it's okay."]
If (C & V), then O.
If (-C & V), then O.
If (C & -V), then -O.
If (-C & -V), the -O.
i.e., V must be true for O to be true as well.
Example 1 represents a case, such as a robbery, where the criminal serves jail time and the victim receives satisfactory compensation for valuables lost and time spent. This only happens if said valuables are replaceable, so damage to one-of-a-kind items, or body parts, will always prevent [V] from being true. This could also represent something like getting a parking ticket for parking in front of a fire hydrant, even though there was no fire.
Example 2 represents a case where a crime was committed, but no harm done, i.e., illegal parking and no ticket issues, but nothing was inconvenienced.
Example 3 is the situation we are discussing, breaking and entering and killing/raping/hurting, and the criminal receiving punishment for it. The criminal got what he deserved, but the victim did not. You say that this is "compliance with the law," I say that this is "a situation we should strive to prevent," even though it's not as bad as...
Example 4, which represents a criminal getting away with a heinous crime. You accuse me of being okay with this, while I say that being not okay with situation 3 doesn't mean that I am okay with situation 4.
Was this clear enough for you? Did you read the whole thing?
Explain to me how an empty gun is dangerous.
Explain to me how & when a loaded gun becomes dangerous.
Also I have yet to find those home invasion statistics, they come from home insurance & home security sites.
Yet you were never the person that brought up the point with punishment. The entire basis of your argument is moot.144 said:I'll take your non-response to the punishment section as conceding.
An empty gun is as dangerous as an empty car. In other words, safe for the time being, but not to be used carelessly.
"How and when a loaded gun becomes dangerous?" Gee, I wonder. A loaded gun is in a position that, if treated carelessly, will kill people. Ignoring this makes reference to that illusory world you brought up earlier. A loaded gun is a dangerous weapon. That's the whole point of the gun. Giving someone the power to shoot and kill someone else.
If you can't link to statistics, you shouldn't bring this up. The wonderful thing about internet debates is that the opponent can check everything you say, and has enough time to do so at his leisure.
Earlier, I implied that you might not be reading the entirety of those posts that you respond to. Once again, this is shown, because you speak in extremes, taking any point I make as an item you want to hear, and not what I actually said. Also, the point about punishment was something you brought up. I responded to it. For no reason does that make any argument moot. This is you backing away from part of an argument you've lost, showing you'd rather not have the argument anymore than defend a position, the opposite of which has too much strength against it.aelreth said:Yet you were never the person that brought up the point with punishment. The entire basis of your argument is moot.144 said:I'll take your non-response to the punishment section as conceding.
An empty gun is as dangerous as an empty car. In other words, safe for the time being, but not to be used carelessly.
"How and when a loaded gun becomes dangerous?" Gee, I wonder. A loaded gun is in a position that, if treated carelessly, will kill people. Ignoring this makes reference to that illusory world you brought up earlier. A loaded gun is a dangerous weapon. That's the whole point of the gun. Giving someone the power to shoot and kill someone else.
If you can't link to statistics, you shouldn't bring this up. The wonderful thing about internet debates is that the opponent can check everything you say, and has enough time to do so at his leisure.
So is shooting someone a careless action and therefore unsafe under every circumstance?
How does one make it so you can shoot safely?
Can there ever be a case where not shooting someone would be also unsafe?
There was a time not very long ago when we taught firearms safety in American schools prior to sex-ed. They also had high school rifle teams. Teaching basic firearms safety would reduce the number of deaths from negligent discharges there are in the United States. Even the Dick Cheney had one, non-fatal though. These deaths result from complacency and ignorance, which is at the end of the day the cause of most accidents fatal or not.144 said:Earlier, I implied that you might not be reading the entirety of those posts that you respond to. Once again, this is shown, because you speak in extremes, taking any point I make as an item you want to hear, and not what I actually said. Also, the point about punishment was something you brought up. I responded to it. For no reason does that make any argument moot. This is you backing away from part of an argument you've lost, showing you'd rather not have the argument anymore than defend a position, the opposite of which has too much strength against it.aelreth said:Yet you were never the person that brought up the point with punishment. The entire basis of your argument is moot.144 said:I'll take your non-response to the punishment section as conceding.
An empty gun is as dangerous as an empty car. In other words, safe for the time being, but not to be used carelessly.
"How and when a loaded gun becomes dangerous?" Gee, I wonder. A loaded gun is in a position that, if treated carelessly, will kill people. Ignoring this makes reference to that illusory world you brought up earlier. A loaded gun is a dangerous weapon. That's the whole point of the gun. Giving someone the power to shoot and kill someone else.
If you can't link to statistics, you shouldn't bring this up. The wonderful thing about internet debates is that the opponent can check everything you say, and has enough time to do so at his leisure.
So is shooting someone a careless action and therefore unsafe under every circumstance?
How does one make it so you can shoot safely?
Can there ever be a case where not shooting someone would be also unsafe?
Shooting carefully isn't careless. Shooting carelessly is careless. Careless handling of firearms is dangerous. The ownership of a gun by an insane individual is dangerous. There are too many examples in favor of this statement to deny it. I don't see why this is so difficult to get across. I'm trying to dumb it down as much as I can, but you seem to be reading something that isn't written.
So, before responding this time, go back and reread the posts before a few times, let my intentions (hopefully made clearer in the context of this post) sink in, and try to react like a mature individual instead of the radical stereotype I see you as approaching.