Uh...where did yesterday go?

[Saelune]

SNIP

What's with calling things gay? That's not like you, and its not 1998 public elementary school anymore.

Gay

Please stop. It is offensive and immature and you know it.

How is it offensive? He isn't insulting anyone in the LGBT community in this proper context.

As an LGBT person who went to Highschool, yeah it is offensive.

It is not offensive though.

Explain how using the word in a way which is either inherently negative or a derogatory put down isnt offensive?

Quietly placing bets that you dont identify as it, and are going to shrug it off as 'just a thing people say, not a big deal'.

Marik wasn't using it to insult somebody, if he was wouldn't he be modded? Context matters. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
"Gay is a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual. The term was originally used to mean "carefree", "cheerful", or "bright and showy"."

If Marik was openly using it to insult someone, then I wouldn't be defending him now.

'If he did something wrong, then he would be punished' is not sound logic.



And no, 'If I am defending them, then they did nothing wrong' is also not sound logic.


Here is context for you, an LGBT person is offended by their use of the word but two non LGBT people said it is ok. Who to believe?

Refer to anything you are disgusted by as "cis white male" from now on. Obviously there's no offence to be found in that, is there? How would anyone have a problem with that?

We live in a world where Trump can say sexist things and be praised for it, but a woman calls out one of Trump's women and she is called a horrible sexist by Trump supporters. If anything, I call someone on here a cis white male, I will get banned. :/

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

What's with calling things gay? That's not like you, and its not 1998 public elementary school anymore.

Gay

Please stop. It is offensive and immature and you know it.

How is it offensive? He isn't insulting anyone in the LGBT community in this proper context.

As an LGBT person who went to Highschool, yeah it is offensive.

It is not offensive though.

Explain how using the word in a way which is either inherently negative or a derogatory put down isnt offensive?

Quietly placing bets that you dont identify as it, and are going to shrug it off as 'just a thing people say, not a big deal'.

Marik wasn't using it to insult somebody, if he was wouldn't he be modded? Context matters. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
"Gay is a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual. The term was originally used to mean "carefree", "cheerful", or "bright and showy"."

If Marik was openly using it to insult someone, then I wouldn't be defending him now.

'If he did something wrong, then he would be punished' is not sound logic.



And no, 'If I am defending them, then they did nothing wrong' is also not sound logic.


Here is context for you, an LGBT person is offended by their use of the word but two non LGBT people said it is ok. Who to believe?

People have used the word gay as a non-insult for a long time, is the majority of the population now homophobic for saying it?

Classic moving of goalposts.

And you're deflecting.

I am not letting you put me on the defensive with your fallacy. Marik was being offensive and you're defending that. And yeah! A ton of people are homophobic for using gay the way they have. Again, I was an LGBT person in highschool. I heard it all the fucking time, because so many people do not care and do not appreciate how offensive it is to use what someone is as an insult. When you do that, you are saying that being gay is an insulting thing to be.

He wasn't insulting anyone with that word.

Certainly insulted me.

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

What's with calling things gay? That's not like you, and its not 1998 public elementary school anymore.

Gay

Please stop. It is offensive and immature and you know it.

How is it offensive? He isn't insulting anyone in the LGBT community in this proper context.

As an LGBT person who went to Highschool, yeah it is offensive.

It is not offensive though.

Explain how using the word in a way which is either inherently negative or a derogatory put down isnt offensive?

Quietly placing bets that you dont identify as it, and are going to shrug it off as 'just a thing people say, not a big deal'.

Marik wasn't using it to insult somebody, if he was wouldn't he be modded? Context matters. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
"Gay is a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual. The term was originally used to mean "carefree", "cheerful", or "bright and showy"."

If Marik was openly using it to insult someone, then I wouldn't be defending him now.

'If he did something wrong, then he would be punished' is not sound logic.



And no, 'If I am defending them, then they did nothing wrong' is also not sound logic.


Here is context for you, an LGBT person is offended by their use of the word but two non LGBT people said it is ok. Who to believe?

People have used the word gay as a non-insult for a long time, is the majority of the population now homophobic for saying it?

Classic moving of goalposts.

And you're deflecting.

I am not letting you put me on the defensive with your fallacy. Marik was being offensive and you're defending that. And yeah! A ton of people are homophobic for using gay the way they have. Again, I was an LGBT person in highschool. I heard it all the fucking time, because so many people do not care and do not appreciate how offensive it is to use what someone is as an insult. When you do that, you are saying that being gay is an insulting thing to be.

He wasn't insulting anyone with that word.

Certainly insulted me.

Was it directed at you? No, and if he was he would be modded and we wouldn't be debating this.

I asked nicely for Marik to stop and they instead doubled down.


And again 'They were not punished, must be innocent' is FAULTY LOGIC.

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

What's with calling things gay? That's not like you, and its not 1998 public elementary school anymore.

Gay

It is offensive and immature and you know it.

Which is why I keep doing it. I also like to use the word retard a lot.

This is Marik admitting it is offensive.

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

What's with calling things gay? That's not like you, and its not 1998 public elementary school anymore.

Gay

It is offensive and immature and you know it.

Which is why I keep doing it. I also like to use the word retard a lot.

This is Marik admitting it is offensive.

But in the context that he used it in his posts, he wasn't being offensive.

So you don't believe the LGBT person NOR the person you are defending?

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

What's with calling things gay? That's not like you, and its not 1998 public elementary school anymore.

Gay

It is offensive and immature and you know it.

Which is why I keep doing it. I also like to use the word retard a lot.

This is Marik admitting it is offensive.

But in the context that he used it in his posts, he wasn't being offensive.

So you don't believe the LGBT person NOR the person you are defending?

I do believe it yes, but again when he said gay he wasn't insulting anyone.

We are officially at the 'talking in circles' part of the argument.


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1055714-Uh-where-did-yesterday-go?page=2#24254467

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

What's with calling things gay? That's not like you, and its not 1998 public elementary school anymore.

Gay

It is offensive and immature and you know it.

Which is why I keep doing it. I also like to use the word retard a lot.

This is Marik admitting it is offensive.

But in the context that he used it in his posts, he wasn't being offensive.

So you don't believe the LGBT person NOR the person you are defending?

I do believe it yes, but again when he said gay he wasn't insulting anyone.

We are officially at the 'talking in circles' part of the argument.


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1055714-Uh-where-did-yesterday-go?page=2#24254467

Indeed, but I take back what I said, since again he never insulted anyone.

So basically you do not care about how LGBT people feel?

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Question.

Who gets to decide if offense should be taken?

 

[Avnger]

Question.

Who gets to decide if offense should be taken?

When both the person who took the action say it's offensive and a person who is impacted by the action says it'ss offensive, clearly the answer is the 3rd party with no stake other than not wanting to be inconvenienced by having to notice the interaction.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Question.

Who gets to decide if offense should be taken?

When both the person who took the action say it's offensive and a person who is impacted by the action says it'ss offensive, clearly the answer is the 3rd party with no stake other than not wanting to be inconvenienced by having to notice the interaction.

Your math checks out.

But I'm serious, though. I remember back in middle school, I was at the house of my mother's co-worker doing homework. Her father was there and was watching me doing my math work. He immigrated here with his family from... Poland or something. I don't think I ever knew for sure, but he still had his accent.

Anyway, when he saw me doing this stuff in my head and how I did it so fast, he was honestly impressed by me. And my mom, who checked my homework after she was done with whatever take home work they needed to do together. And he expressed it.

By saying that he rarely saw a colored kid be so bright, and a colored mother be so involved. And how we were the future of it.

So, as a middle school kid, I knew that my skin color was an issue. My mother was barely concealed fury. And her co-worker was aghast. But I could see on her father's face that he was honestly praising my mother and myself. It just so happened to be in the most backhanded way possible.

I remember gathering up our stuff as soon as possible, her co-worker's father upset that my mom took offense and his daughter apologizing for the situation, and little other than that.

Whenever a situation like this occurs (Gay being said 'not in offense'), I always think back to that night. Even though no offense was meant, how it was said and the meaning behind it was offensive. To my knowledge, I don't think he actually conversed and dealt with many different cultures since moving here, so how does he honestly know what happens in the houses of millions of people other than sound bytes on the news?

Anyway, if someone tell me the magical formula to have everyone get on board with how to suss the "No Offensive/Offensive way of Saying Something", that would be great...

 

[Elijin]

This whole argument is so WolvDragon.

 

[Elijin]

Question.

Who gets to decide if offense should be taken?

Saelune decided to be offended at a remark not directed to them. When the word gay has been used in non offensive ways in the past, I even pointed out as such. Some on the left are getting outraged at the most inoffensive things, we're just giving the right more ammo that were a bunch of snowflakes.

I like how it's been pointed out the person who said it, went on to say they said it because it was offensive. But dont let that get in your way?

The entire concept is that something being 'gay' is a negative thing. It's been 'non-offensive' in the past because people who usually arent gay, have decided that using part of someone's identity as a slang for negativity isnt offensive. Sadly, because society isnt great about things, some have decided it was used enough that hey, no, it's just a joke. This one thing based entirely on the concept that being gay is inherently bad, isnt offensive because we said so!

 

[Elijin]

I've never understood the "the word was in use for decades with a different meaning" argument. The meanings so severely clash with each other that there is rarely doubt over the intended use.

Always seemed like a massive cop out to me. May as well say ****** is perfectly fine because it used to mean a bundle of sticks. Doesn't stop anyone from seeing how it was intended.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Question.

Who gets to decide if offense should be taken?

Saelune decided to be offended at a remark not directed to them. When the word gay has been used in non offensive ways in the past, I even pointed out as such. Some on the left are getting outraged at the most inoffensive things, we're just giving the right more ammo that were a bunch of snowflakes.

But we do need to take current climate and society into context. We can not hold things in a vaccuum and ignore the rest.


Attacks against the gays [https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/youths-who-choked-student-until-he-apologised-for-being-gay-walk-free-from-court-a3839026.html] aren't a thing of the distant past, they are a thing of the past few weeks [https://www.thelocal.de/20180517/string-of-homophobic-attacks-in-berlins-neuklln-worries-lgbt-community].

And I mean the past few weeks [https://www.outsports.com/2018/6/14/17464374/gay-world-cup-russia-attack]. I could list things for days if I wanted [https://jacksonheightspost.com/homophobic-attack-mars-otherwise-jubilant-queens-pride-parade]. But this sort of stuff depresses me [https://jacksonheightspost.com/homophobic-attack-mars-otherwise-jubilant-queens-pride-parade] because human beings are being targeted and almost hunted for things [https://www.thelocal.fr/20180516/france-sees-jump-in-homophobia-related-physical-attacks] that no one can control.

All I see is my brothers and sisters who happen to love brothers and sisters (respectively) are still being harassed for things that no one should be ashamed for. Saelune isn't "deciding" to be offended. When someone's life is different than yours, there aren't 'decisions' as you put it. If Joe Blow average white guy gets angry at a cop, he can get into their face. If I get angry at a cop, I need to be apologetic or make my peace with what happens next... and then have people from all over the world saying "Well, he got belligerent, what was the cop supposed to do?!".

As if just being belligerent is enough to forfeit your life. Those who think that, there are still a few summer friday nights left in New York City. Watch these drunk white girls get into cops' faces and try to slap them and then tell me they forfeited their lives.

Saelune is speaking up. Which everyone should do when something wrong happens. It's 'just a word' when it doesn't affect you. To someone who is LGBT, it's an alarm to see what might come next.

But this exchange was good. This led me to the answer of who gets to decide offense: The one who has more to lose. It isn't like I didn't know it was wrong to just say 'gay'. I was hoping more of a thought exercise would come out of it. But I'm just going to put that answer out there and hopefully it will stick in some minds.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

This thread has de-railed, so it is getting closed. For future reference, any words that might reference a persons sexuality, ethnicity or impediments are probably insults if they are used to describe how something else is bad, inferior or stupid.