UK Class divide.

[Danny Ocean]

I'm just listening to this news report on the radio about the ever-widening class divide between the rich and the poor in the UK.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are vast generalisations at play here, and I don't really care about someone's class if they're a good person. I did a search of 'Class Divide' and didn't find anything.

Apparently, by the age of 6, a more well-off, but less able child will overtake a poor, more able child.

So, how can we possibly fix this? We've already got the Welfare state, although it doesn't seem to be working too well. We could increase the taxes on the rich and reduce those on the poor even further, but then again that could be taken too far. Some people say it's already being taken too far. Families that earn more than a £40,000 (I think) need to pay 40% tax already, and that's only for the system, to help the poor. Is this what people mean when they say we are approaching communism?

Is this really a problem with the class divide, or is it just spinning statistics? I, as a middle-class privately educated white teenager, get a lot of stick from a lot of people. Most of that stick comes in the form of class hatred from someone of a lower class. Any rebuttals are taboo, because I'm relatively well off.

So, thoughts? How can we fix this without making it a free ride for the poor or punishing the rich for being successful?

Spoiler: rant

There was one argument that vexed me, a politician said this, "It used to be that a woman could expect to live longer than a man. However, now a wealthy man can expect to live longer than a poorer woman."
What the fuck? SO? Isn't it good that anyone is living longer? Why does it have to come back to women vs. men in everything?

 

[scarbunny]

higher taxes for higher earners, 40% of 40k makes a huge difference compaired to 40% of 200k

Scotland are looking at removing council tax and replaceing it with a 3% income tax, meaning those that can pay more will pay more.

Either that or bring back Poll tax, much fairer, why should i pay for schools when i dont have kids?

 

[Blayze]

"It used to be that a woman could expect to live longer than a man. However, now a wealthy man can expect to live longer than a poorer woman."

Of course. Simply because the wealthy man can afford to buy better food, can afford better healthcare, better living conditions... Then again, the minute a man could possibly have something over a woman, it's instant sexism ("Just add vote-begging!").

 

[Danny Ocean]

Either that or bring back Poll tax, much fairer, why should i pay for schools when i dont have kids?

What's poll tax?

After talking with my parents, they mentioned Maggie Thatcher. I thought a lot of the stuff she did was great, but apparently, all the ire about her comes from the unions not liking all the (ultimately beneficial) taxes and systems she brought in. Is that true?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Margaret Thatcher.

Let me count the ways you single handedly destroyed the country.

Removed universal free school milk (Hence Thatcher the Milk Snatcher)
Crippled Unions
Destroyed the Coal Industry so it was cheaper to import coal to coal mines.
Started the Falklands War
Dropped my College Education down to 2 days a week because of the Teacher's Strikes.
Massively increased the gap between North and South.
Closed Grammar Schools in favour of comprehensive schools.

The Russians are bent on world dominance, and they are rapidly acquiring the means to become the most powerful imperial nation the world has seen. The men in the Soviet Politburo do not have to worry about the ebb and flow of public opinion. They put guns before butter, while we put just about everything before guns.

Long Kesh
Doubled unemployment figures
One word : Privatisation
The Community Charge
P.W. Botha and South Africa
Abolished the Greater London Council

"Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay"

Greenham Common
The Gulf War
Defended General Pinochet
Being considered for a State Funeral

And from Elvis Costello

That?s when they finally put you in the ground
I?ll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down

BUT...

She was one of the team responsible for Softscoop Icecream.

 

[afrophysics]

Either that or bring back Poll tax, much fairer, why should i pay for schools when i dont have kids?

Why should we pay your healthcare when we don't get sick?

 

[TomWhitbrook]

Ultimately, higher taxation will discourage people from bothering. I mean, whats the point in bettering myself if I'm flat out worse off jumping my salary from 27 to 28 grand a year, because of the epic hike in the tax I pay? And despite the greater disparities in wealth, higher earnings across the board leads to more spending and saving which boosts the whole economy. It's not like people pile all that money up in the cellar while cackling like Scrooge.

And frankly, the state run systems in Britain are flat out broken, so we're better off reforming them severely than just raising taxes. We're pouring in money in exchange for incompetence after incompetence, ridiculous systems that are expolited by many and fail to help those they should, and a mish mash of monopolies created out of criminally self interested privatizations.

I could quite easily cross post this into that "For the better?" thread.

 

[scarbunny]

Either that or bring back Poll tax, much fairer, why should i pay for schools when i dont have kids?

Why should we pay your healthcare when we don't get sick?

Because you can never control if you get sick or not, however you have control over child birth and once you have children you will then pay greater tax, this would have the added benefit of stopping chavs popping out kids because the more they have the money they get with little to no negative impact.

As I never intend to have children why should I pay to support the schools when i will see no benefit from them? Same with play parks.

Also Maggie can be forgiven everything if she really did help invent soft scoop ice cream!

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Also Maggie can be forgiven everything if she really did help invent soft scoop ice cream!

Completely true :

After a brief period, she was selected as the Conservative candidate, and she subsequently moved to Dartford to stand for election as a Member of Parliament. To support herself during this period, she went to work for J. Lyons and Co., where she helped develop methods for preserving ice cream and was paid £500 per year.[14]

[14] http://www.number10.gov.uk/history-and-tour/prime-ministers-in-history/margaret-thatcher

 

[scarbunny]

Also Maggie can be forgiven everything if she really did help invent soft scoop ice cream!

Completely true :

After a brief period, she was selected as the Conservative candidate, and she subsequently moved to Dartford to stand for election as a Member of Parliament. To support herself during this period, she went to work for J. Lyons and Co., where she helped develop methods for preserving ice cream and was paid £500 per year.[14]

[14] http://www.number10.gov.uk/history-and-tour/prime-ministers-in-history/margaret-thatcher

Fantastic

F**k the coal industry we have soft scoop.

and cheaper coal from abroad win win!

 

[shakeslol]

Either that or bring back Poll tax, much fairer, why should i pay for schools when i dont have kids?

because if you have a heart attack in your winter years.. itll be that money that helped pay for the doctor's education that is trying to save your life.

 

[Akafrank]

"So, thoughts? How can we fix this without making it a free ride for the poor or punishing the rich for being successful?"

People much smarter than me have proposed answers to that very question.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/bill_strickland_makes_change_with_a_slide_show.html
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/nicholas_negroponte_on_one_laptop_per_child.html

Ted Talks are where the big brains talk about this very stuff.

 

[cianer]

As I never intend to have children why should I pay to support the schools when i will see no benefit from them?

You will see benefit from them. Who do you think is going to be running the country when you are retired? Who do you think is going to be deciding how much pension and health benefits to give pensioners? Wouldn't you rather they were educated people?

You and I and anyone else with the tiniest bit of education in Maths can see that getting more money from the government for more kids is not financially profitable because kids cost far more than the government gives you. If these chavs that you are so fond of were better educated they would realise this and *that* would stop them popping out sprogs. They would also realise that the packet of Johnnies they "can't afford" is cheaper than a kid.

Education is the solution, not the problem.

 

[scarbunny]

As I never intend to have children why should I pay to support the schools when i will see no benefit from them?

You will see benefit from them. Who do you think is going to be running the country when you are retired? Who do you think is going to be deciding how much pension and health benefits to give pensioners? Wouldn't you rather they were educated people?

You and I and anyone else with the tiniest bit of education in Maths can see that getting more money from the government for more kids is not financially profitable because kids cost far more than the government gives you. If these chavs that you are so fond of were better educated they would realise this and *that* would stop them popping out sprogs. They would also realise that the packet of Johnnies they "can't afford" is cheaper than a kid.

Education is the solution, not the problem.

If it is cheaper to not have kids and live on the state how come there are people I know that have 3 kids a nice house a nice car a nice big telly and have never worked a day. Yet I have no kids work everyday (in a good job) and can just about afford to pay the bills and buy food?

 

[TheGhostOfSin]

"So, thoughts? How can we fix this without making it a free ride for the poor or punishing the rich for being successful?

Most rich people inherited their money, they're not necessarily successful.

 

[Danny Ocean]

"So, thoughts? How can we fix this without making it a free ride for the poor or punishing the rich for being successful?

Most rich people inherited their money, they're not necessarily successful.

Okay...How can we fix this without making it a free ride for the poor or punishing the successful for being successful?

I don't think that can be true, the upper-class may inherit riches, but the middle classes have usually made it themselves, right?

 

[BigKingBob]

The short answer is that you cant make things fair for everyone, thats just how the world works, some will be richer that others, more successful etc etc and will pass that on to their descendants. But that doesn't mean anything is wrong with the things we have today.
I'm from the upper working/lower middle class, my dad is a research scientist with a phd but my mum never went to university, my parents are divorced so basically I was raised by my mum.

We never had alot of money but the system ensured that I had a good education, financial support when I went to uni, good healthcare when I needed it. Now I know these things weren't the best or the most efficient but thats why we have private schools and private healthcare. Those that can afford them can go there, it's their choice! We used what we needed and the government asked that we paid what taxes we could afford.

I had a lot of middle and upper class friends at uni, I didn't begrudge them their families' successes, yeah I grumbled and shook my fist but I'm from Yorkshire that's what we do.

At the end of the day it's not the governments responsibility to ensure I have the same upbringing and privileges as someone with a double barrelled last name, a horse, a holiday house in Tuscany and a trust fund worth the same as New Zealand. It's the governemnt's job to insure I am safe and secure and given a fair chance to succeed.

As for the poll tax comment, don't be stupid, that tax penilizes the poor at the convenience of the rich. You may not plan on having kids (and therefore not want to have to pay for child related expenditure) but there is no way that you can be sure of that. Anyway, you surely owe the government for all the funds that they put aside for your public education, which you then didnt use, and were therefore wasted.

And how about contributing money to help support the women who was knocked up by her boyfriend who then left her when she found out she was pregnant and therefore can't work to support them as she has to care for their child?

Or what about the OAPs who fought for your freedom in WW2 but were too poor to afford pensions?

Or the person left crippled in the aftermath of a car crash?

Please think about these things before you say them...

PS. Also, Thatcher? Thatcher?? She was the worst thing to happen to the working classes since William the Conqueror!

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Well, taxing people on their ability to earn would be a start.

Say you pay a fixed rate of 1p for every ten pounds you can earn, whether by dole, work or interest.

 

[cianer]

If it is cheaper to not have kids and live on the state how come there are people I know that have 3 kids a nice house a nice car a nice big telly and have never worked a day. Yet I have no kids work everyday (in a good job) and can just about afford to pay the bills and buy food?

Well, I'm a cynical bastard so I'd guess it is because you don't commit crime or get involved in dole fraud.

Ok I'm in Ireland and don't know the nitty gritty details of the welfare system in the UK, but I believe the two countries are broadly the same. I am open to correction on the UK system, however it is definitely not economically viable here in Ireland: ?535 a month for 3 kids - that's ?6.36 per kid per day. If you can feed a kid three meals a day on ?6.36 you're a cleverer person than I, not to mention clothing them.

Despite the simplicity of this calculation Ireland has the same situation where uneducated young girls seem to think that popping out as many sprogs as possible is the best way to increase your income and/or get a house.

What amuses me is that when you meet their mothers and grandmothers (who had the same mentality back in their day) they are always griping about how much everyone else has, and how they never have any money. Could this be because they have lots of kids and no income? Its simple fact but the lack of education blinds them from seeing it.

What the solution is I've no idea, because even if you gave them the best education in the world they come from families where education is simply not respected. That said I believe you have to try and free education is not something I personally begrudge paying for with my taxes.

 

[scarbunny]

If it is cheaper to not have kids and live on the state how come there are people I know that have 3 kids a nice house a nice car a nice big telly and have never worked a day. Yet I have no kids work everyday (in a good job) and can just about afford to pay the bills and buy food?

Well, I'm a cynical bastard so I'd guess it is because you don't commit crime or get involved in dole fraud.

Ok I'm in Ireland and don't know the nitty gritty details of the welfare system in the UK, but I believe the two countries are broadly the same. I am open to correction on the UK system, however it is definitely not economically viable here in Ireland: €535 a month for 3 kids - that's €6.36 per kid per day. If you can feed a kid three meals a day on €6.36 you're a cleverer person than I, not to mention clothing them.

Despite the simplicity of this calculation Ireland has the same situation where uneducated young girls seem to think that popping out as many sprogs as possible is the best way to increase your income and/or get a house.

What amuses me is that when you meet their mothers and grandmothers (who had the same mentality back in their day) they are always griping about how much everyone else has, and how they never have any money. Could this be because they have lots of kids and no income? Its simple fact but the lack of education blinds them from seeing it.

What the solution is I've no idea, because even if you gave them the best education in the world they come from families where education is simply not respected. That said I believe you have to try and free education is not something I personally begrudge paying for with my taxes.

Communism thats the answer, if done correctly and not run by a corrupt self serving tyrant.