UK Local Elections 2021

Silvanus

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Yeah, a party that stands for clear moral principles would be rubbish, wouldn't it?
It'd be quite nice to have, actually. But it wouldn't be brought a single step closer by said infighting.

That's not what he said; what he said was actually true.
D'you think longstanding party members facing harassment and threats would be interested in a statement from the former party leader that it weren't his fault, guv? I'd have thought if they were to believe the party took abuse allegations seriously, they'd want him to.... well, say something about that.

Say an independent report shows a town has experienced a rash of criminal activity and the police haven't investigated it properly. The mayor releases a statement in response... saying that it's all exaggerated and you can't blame him, anyway.

Even if true, how on earth is anyone supposed to have faith that he gives a shit, if that's higher on his priority list than their concerns?
 

Seanchaidh

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But it wouldn't be brought a single step closer by said infighting.
You cannot both be a friend of Israel (in the way that Labour Friends of Israel is, anyway) and for justice.

I'd have thought if they were to believe the party took abuse allegations seriously, they'd want him to.... well, say something about that.
Who are you even talking about? The most widely publicized 'concerns' were (mostly, apart from the one lady who was really insistent on associating capitalism with jewishness as I remember) ginned up nonsense about the use of tropes and how to speak more delicately about Israel, not abuse.
 

Trunkage

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Was this before or after Democrats got power lol.

As we've seen before and it's been mentioned by senators before who weren't fully in with the parties it's just about partisanship and making the others the enemy not consistent standards.
The scariest thing with the US is when the two parties agree on something. It means thousands are about to die
 

Dwarvenhobble

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You have absolutely no idea, do you?

These are people in charge of government departments. And still, the press (which is overwhelmingly right-wing in the UK) treat people like Grayling and Williamson with kid gloves. The press are their defenders.

Remember when Grayling awarded a ferry contract to a company with no ferries, which then had to be cancelled, at a cost of 50 million to the taxpayer? Yeah, the tabloids scarcely covered it. No public abuse. But Abbott got some maths wrong, which cost the taxpayer nothing, and she wasn't even in government... cue the tabloids losing their minds and months of public harassment.
You've clearly never seen some of the political cartoonists works.
The kid gloves comment entirely depends on the press and who is doing it.

Grayling was ripped apart as a fool by many of the press for that one.

The tabloids are the tabloids and far from a lot of the UK press.

The claim about UK media being right wing? Compared to what Chairman Mao?

The Guardian
The Independent
Inews
Vice UK

They're very much left wing

The BBC
Channel 4 News
The Metro
Vice News

Get accused of being leftwing quite regularly. The BBC didn't get the nickname "Blair's Broadcasting Corporation" for nothing.



OK. So, you just believe that sensitive subjects shouldn't be mandatory for classes with behavioural issues, then.

I've still not actually seen anything from Labour saying it should be mandatory across all key stages etc. Corbyn proposed it be part of the curriculum, which doesn't mean mandatory across all grades/ key stages as you appear to be assuming.
Except it already is optional and not mandatory and Labour were kicking up a fuss because they were on about it not being visible enough etc. The only way to be certain it would be covered would be making it mandatory.

Can you sort out your quotes in that post please? In its current format I can't just quote and reply.
My bad on the quotes

Here's I'll do a shorter version save using quotes as such

You: An imminent threat, necessitating a physical protective counter-protest, is only credible if there is actually anyone there to threaten it.
Me : So you don't bother locking your door?

You: Don't even need ropes or hacksaws to be a credible threat. But we're talking about literally nobody being there.
Me: Possibly because it was circulated on social media that people had turned out to protect it already

You: Right... and as has already been shown, the PM also promised it. And it wasn't in response to Labour saying anything about the proportion of female candidates.
Me: No the article points out it was a response to comments from Labour.

You: I haven't said anything inaccurate. The PM did promise half of all Tory candidates would be women. He did not promise this in response to anything Labour said about proportions of female candidates.
Me: Which would be sophistry at the end of the day

You: You, on the other hand, made various assumptions about context and content which turned out to be absolute bunkum, because you didn't bother to research the most basic details of what you were talking about.
Me: Only if you play at sophistry. In the world where words and saying have meanings and implications it's clear the context and implications behind comments and counter comments. Funny how you seem to understand that with Corbyn but not the rather deliberate set up attempts in this case against Boris

You: Give me a break, what a waste of time.
Me: Why would I give you a break when you're very much seemingly against giving me even an inch lol

In saner times, it would have been incomprehensible for an education secretary to oversee the non-stop schools debacles (especially the A-levels) and keep their job. But here's our brand new world. It's not to say that the right-wing press haven't included criticism of him, but it's distinctly at a remove: more a sort of "These people say Williamson is rubbish" rather than themselves calling "Williamson should go". They have absolutely protected him.

But the point here is that the anti-social justice mob care nothing other than that social justice is bad and that gays, women and racial minorities have it easy. All their "arguments" are nothing but rationalisations of this central mania, and aggressviely attacking people like Dianne Abbott for any and all tiny slip-up is a sport.
So what should the method have been not attempt to use system to adjust the scores at all? Not try to somehow normalise the stuff based on predictions from prior grades?


Who gives a shit? More importantly, its popular with the public. Labour should stick with it.
They should but then they'd lose the champagne socialists lol

Both Amazon and Google pay fuck-all in tax, but neither actually paid 0 in the UK to our knowledge. And their lowest proportionate taxes have been under the Tories.

Amazon did manage to pay zero corporation tax to the US for two years (under Trump), and zero corporation tax to Luxembourg, where most of its European business is declared.
I stand slightly corrected they paid so little they had to pay in the end actually £140+ Million which was both underpaid and apparently even due back tax that hadn't been collected


The scariest thing with the US is when the two parties agree on something. It means thousands are about to die
They do agree on a lot though, the funny thing is they just one to be the ones to do it lol
 

Silvanus

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You've clearly never seen some of the political cartoonists works.
The kid gloves comment entirely depends on the press and who is doing it.

Grayling was ripped apart as a fool by many of the press for that one.

The tabloids are the tabloids and far from a lot of the UK press.

The claim about UK media being right wing? Compared to what Chairman Mao?

The Guardian
The Independent
Inews
Vice UK

They're very much left wing

The BBC
Channel 4 News
The Metro
Vice News

Get accused of being leftwing quite regularly. The BBC didn't get the nickname "Blair's Broadcasting Corporation" for nothing.
...And Blair was not a left-winger by any stretch of the imagination, so I wonder why you're bringing it up. The 'I' is a sister paper to the Independent, so listing the Indie and the 'I' separately is a little like listing the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday as entirely distinct titles. The Independent also supported the Tory coalition over Labour. The Metro is London-only, and is not left-wing in the slightest.

As for the BBC... the BBC routinely lets the Tories get away with murder; why else do you think Laura Kuenssberg & Andrew Neil are probably the two most prominent political faces of the BBC for the past several years? Both of them are well-recognised as pretty obviously in the Tory camp.

The truth is that the UK has....

On the right:
The Sun
The Star
The Daily Mail
The Times
The Telegraph
The Express

And on the left:
The Guardian
The Mirror

And in the centre/ economic centre-right/ economic liberal:
BBC
The Independent/ 'I'

Except it already is optional and not mandatory and Labour were kicking up a fuss because they were on about it not being visible enough etc. The only way to be certain it would be covered would be making it mandatory.
It's not part of the national curriculum. Labour wanted to make it part of the curriculum.

No, that doesn't mean making it mandatory across all key-stages. You've quite obviously just made that assumption yourself to make it seem less reasonable.





My bad on the quotes

Here's I'll do a shorter version save using quotes as such

You: An imminent threat, necessitating a physical protective counter-protest, is only credible if there is actually anyone there to threaten it.
Me : So you don't bother locking your door?
Of course. Which isn't a physical counter-protest, but just a basic safety measure. Do you stand at your door ready to tackle intruders, regardless of whether there's anyone actually trying to break in?

You: Right... and as has already been shown, the PM also promised it. And it wasn't in response to Labour saying anything about the proportion of female candidates.
Me: No the article points out it was a response to comments from Labour.
Comments which were nothing to do with the proportion of female candidates.

You: You, on the other hand, made various assumptions about context and content which turned out to be absolute bunkum, because you didn't bother to research the most basic details of what you were talking about.
Me: Only if you play at sophistry. In the world where words and saying have meanings and implications it's clear the context and implications behind comments and counter comments. Funny how you seem to understand that with Corbyn but not the rather deliberate set up attempts in this case against Boris
"Sophistry", okay.

You made an assumption, and it turned out to be wrong. The Tories were the only ones to bring up the proportion of female candidates. You claimed otherwise, that Labour were the ones who made a big deal about the proportion of female candidates; you were mistaken. That's really all there is to it.

And now, suddenly, it's sophistry, because you don't actually care about the argument over proportion of female candidates; you only brought it up as long as you thought it was a cudgel you could bash lefties with. As soon as it turned out the right-wingers were the ones making a big deal of that topic, you don't give a shit. It's still the lefties fault. Even though they didn't bring it up.
 

Silvanus

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You cannot both be a friend of Israel (in the way that Labour Friends of Israel is, anyway) and for justice.
Bollocks. Support for the existence of Israel does not indicate support for the current ruling party/ policy in Israel. LFI support the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Who are you even talking about? The most widely publicized 'concerns' were (mostly, apart from the one lady who was really insistent on associating capitalism with jewishness as I remember) ginned up nonsense about the use of tropes and how to speak more delicately about Israel, not abuse.
This would seem to indicate you haven't really looked into it very much, then. One of the core complaints has been that certain Labour party members were directing harassment and abuse towards Jewish party members & staffers, and that the official party complaints process would result in no action for many months, if at all.
 

Seanchaidh

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Bollocks. Support for the existence of Israel does not indicate support for the current ruling party/ policy in Israel. LFI support the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Support for a two-state solution generally comes from a place of ignorance or apathy.

One of the core complaints has been that certain Labour party members were directing harassment and abuse towards Jewish party members & staffers, and that the official party complaints process would result in no action for many months, if at all.
I vaguely recall something about members of the Labour Right being in charge of that process and deliberately sabotaging it so they could generate talking points to use against Corbyn.
 
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Silvanus

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Support for a two-state solution generally comes from a place of ignorance or apathy.
I don't much care what you think about the two-state solution. The point is that support for the existence of Israel does not indicate support for their current government or policy, which is obviously true.

I vaguely recall something about members of the Labour Right being in charge of that process and deliberately sabotaging it so they could generate talking points to use against Corbyn.
Then you remember it nebulously and incorrectly. An internal report found that hostility to the leadership hampered the resolution of complaints, though it doesn't conclude this was deliberate sabotage of the complaints procedure.

But this claim doesn't counter the numerous allegations of abuse and harassment taking place. It doesn't claim that this explains the delays and backlog in general, which predate Corbyn. It doesn't go a fraction of the way to allowing us to just handwave away and ignore the frequent named complaints by longstanding Labour members & staffers of harassment and abuse.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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...And Blair was not a left-winger by any stretch of the imagination, so I wonder why you're bringing it up. The 'I' is a sister paper to the Independent, so listing the Indie and the 'I' separately is a little like listing the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday as entirely distinct titles. The Independent also supported the Tory coalition over Labour. The Metro is London-only, and is not left-wing in the slightest.

As for the BBC... the BBC routinely lets the Tories get away with murder; why else do you think Laura Kuenssberg & Andrew Neil are probably the two most prominent political faces of the BBC for the past several years? Both of them are well-recognised as pretty obviously in the Tory camp.

The truth is that the UK has....

On the right:
The Sun
The Star
The Daily Mail
The Times
The Telegraph
The Express

And on the left:
The Guardian
The Mirror

And in the centre/ economic centre-right/ economic liberal:
BBC
The Independent/ 'I'
The Metro really is very much not London only lol

As for the most prominent political faces, maybe because they actually do grill the politician some what they have on? as for Andrew Neil specifically his show was denied a renewal.


It's not part of the national curriculum. Labour wanted to make it part of the curriculum.

No, that doesn't mean making it mandatory across all key-stages. You've quite obviously just made that assumption yourself to make it seem less reasonable.
Except it already is part of the national curriculum as an optional module teacher can choose. As I said I studied some of the stuff.






Of course. Which isn't a physical counter-protest, but just a basic safety measure. Do you stand at your door ready to tackle intruders, regardless of whether there's anyone actually trying to break in?
And in this case it too was a counter measure being done by people who felt strongly enough to need to make it visible that they would defend it should anyone try,


Comments which were nothing to do with the proportion of female candidates.
Comments which were about general attitude towards woman.


"Sophistry", okay.

You made an assumption, and it turned out to be wrong. The Tories were the only ones to bring up the proportion of female candidates. You claimed otherwise, that Labour were the ones who made a big deal about the proportion of female candidates; you were mistaken. That's really all there is to it.

And now, suddenly, it's sophistry, because you don't actually care about the argument over proportion of female candidates; you only brought it up as long as you thought it was a cudgel you could bash lefties with. As soon as it turned out the right-wingers were the ones making a big deal of that topic, you don't give a shit. It's still the lefties fault. Even though they didn't bring it up.
No Tories were criticised for treatment of women in general and chose to use female candidate numbers to present evidence to doubt the claims being made.

Had lefties not taken that round as a whole in general they wouldn't have run into that issue.
 

Seanchaidh

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I don't much care what you think about the two-state solution. The point is that support for the existence of Israel does not indicate support for their current government or policy, which is obviously true.
It doesn't have to. But then you look at https://twitter.com/_LFI and wouldn't you know it, it's hardly anything other than whinging over Hamas rockets.
 

Hawki

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Imagine calling The Guardian, The BBC or The Mirror left wing. Jesus Christ
How is the Guardian not left wing? I've never seen anything on it right of center, and most of its writers would easily fall onto the left.
 

Avnger

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It doesn't have to. But then you look at https://twitter.com/_LFI and wouldn't you know it, it's hardly anything other than whinging over Hamas rockets.
Rocket attacks that purposely target civilian centers seem like a pretty big deal to me...

I dont care if it's the US, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, or Israel who's launching them. It deserves "whinging over" regardless.
 
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Agema

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How is the Guardian not left wing? I've never seen anything on it right of center, and most of its writers would easily fall onto the left.
It is more strictly a liberal paper, by its charter. This therefore makes it generally left-wing in the context of the wider political world out there.

However, it also has a few regular columnists who are distinctly right-leaning in certain ways (albeit liberal), and it also accepts articles from other views, usually on a fairly ad hoc basis, under the principle of inviting a wider range of views to be accessible.
 

Seanchaidh

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Rocket attacks that purposely target civilian centers seem like a pretty big deal to me...

I dont care if it's the US, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, or Israel who's launching them. It deserves "whinging over" regardless.
The rockets are one of the few ways Palestinians are capable of resisting. Condemning them carries with it the implicit expectation that Palestinians should just lie down and die conveniently ignored. If someone looking at the situation in Palestine today's first concern are the relatively ineffectual rockets coming from those who are resisting and not the ethnic cleansing, apartheid, lynch mobs, starvation and poisoning under siege, or demolition of homes, it is safe to say that person has either no real interest in justice or no real understanding of the situation.
 
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Agema

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Rocket attacks that purposely target civilian centers seem like a pretty big deal to me...

I dont care if it's the US, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, or Israel who's launching them. It deserves "whinging over" regardless.
Yes, but let's put it this way: when the Palestinians do nothing much, the Israelis evict them from their territory for Jewish settlers, bulldoze their businesses, and put them under sanctions anyway. Given that, they may as well fire rockets for all the difference it makes.
 

Silvanus

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The Metro really is very much not London only lol

As for the most prominent political faces, maybe because they actually do grill the politician some what they have on? as for Andrew Neil specifically his show was denied a renewal.
Sorry: Metro is available in a limited number of urban areas. Fact remains that it's not left-wing.

Andrew Neil worked for the BBC, as one of its highest-profile political faces, for 25 years. Kuenssberg still does, and is probably the single most recognisable political face of the BBC today. Both are obviously pretty committed Tories.


Except it already is part of the national curriculum as an optional module teacher can choose. As I said I studied some of the stuff.
Not quite. "ideas, political power, industry and empire: Britain, 1745-1901" are part of the key stage 3 curriculum, with one non-statutory example cited being the transatlantic slave trade (Source).

Corbyn's proposal was quite obviously about increasing its visibility and presence in schools, and making sure kids were more likely to learn about it. Nothing there about it being obligatory across all key stages.

And in this case it too was a counter measure being done by people who felt strongly enough to need to make it visible that they would defend it should anyone try
"Should anyone try", which they weren't. So, defending it against nobody. How very noble.

Comments which were about general attitude towards woman.
....And nothing about the proportion of female candidates.

Look, you were the one who brought up the "proportion of female candidates" line. You can't now turn around and say that part of it isn't relevant, when you find out that it was the right-wingers who started banging on about it.
 

Hawki

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However, it also has a few regular columnists who are distinctly right-leaning in certain ways (albeit liberal), and it also accepts articles from other views, usually on a fairly ad hoc basis, under the principle of inviting a wider range of views to be accessible.
If there are, I haven't seen them.

I mean, off the top of my head, the following columists who've written for the Guardian are:

-George Monbiot (self-declared on the Left)
-Owen Jones (self-declared socialist)
-Kehinde Andrews (Marxist/"Black Radical")
-Afra Hirsch
-Ash Sarkar (self-declared communist)
-Ruby Hamad

This isn't a knock against the Guardian, or inherently its writers (I have a huge amount of respect for Monbiot, even if I don't agree with him on everything), but it's plainly left-leaning.
 

Baffle

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Sorry: Metro is available in a limited number of urban areas. Fact remains that it's not left-wing.

Andrew Neil worked for the BBC, as one of its highest-profile political faces, for 25 years. Kuenssberg still does, and is probably the single most recognisable political face of the BBC today. Both are obviously pretty committed Tories.
We get the Metro in Newcastle, quite literally at the Metro (the train). Years since I've read it, but definitely not left-leaning. Owned by the Daily Mail.

Neil and Kuenssberg are just both awful, Neil in particular. Almost definitely kicks dogs when he's having a bad day.
 

Silvanus

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If there are, I haven't seen them.

I mean, off the top of my head, the following columists who've written for the Guardian are:

-George Monbiot (self-declared on the Left)
-Owen Jones (self-declared socialist)
-Kehinde Andrews (Marxist/"Black Radical")
-Afra Hirsch
-Ash Sarkar (self-declared communist)
-Ruby Hamad

This isn't a knock against the Guardian, or inherently its writers (I have a huge amount of respect for Monbiot, even if I don't agree with him on everything), but it's plainly left-leaning.
The Guardian has people from across the political spectrum as infrequent contributors (I.E., not on the payroll, not specifically affiliated). It's that category Hamad & Sarkar fall into, both of whom have written 1 column for the paper in the past 2 years, which puts them alongside people like Dominic Grieve.

The Guardian isn't really "Left-wing" from a Western-European historical perspective; it's generally a broad-umbrella liberal paper. In terms of modern British political discourse, it's generally centre-left: supports Labour (including under Corbyn), nationalisation, progressive tax, etc. But it's hardly a strongly socialist paper or anything.

I listed the Guardian and Mirror as "left" because as far as most British commentators are concerned, they support Labour & usually want to tax the rich and turf the Tories out. It was a simplification but it generally stands. We define the papers broadly by where the rest of the media sits, after all.