UK Retailers May Have to Buy Music Licenses for Console Demo Units

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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Talking to games retail staff they do seem very defensive about their business; they complain about Steam, they complain about HMV, they complain about CEX (specially games re-seller), even how DLC is cutting them out of the loop.

Gaming retail is not long for this world, you know the Publisher sell games to retailers at $30 per game who then sell on for $60 per game. Even then due to licensing Publishers only get $16 per game as income before even factoring development and marketing costs.

Retail stores are going to HAVE to adapt and offer a far more unique service.
 

KrazyKain

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Jun 2, 2010
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wait... so if a dvd rental shop is playing a dvd in the shop, do they need a license for every song in its soundtrack?
 

Raven's Nest

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Feb 19, 2009
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Ah PRS strikes again... Fucking jobsworths!

They have a completely bullshit "law" stating that shops aren't even allowed to put on a radio incase somebody gets to -heaven forbid- listen to some free music.... From a radio station.... Which broadcasts music....FOR FREE!!!

If the record companies had such a big problem with people hearing music for free, they wouldn't bend over backwards paying out millions of pounds to get the latest shitty ndubz single played on radio sh1te every hour.

PRS doesn't even pay the artists that get heard. It just collects a fee to pay it's own staff and record labels with no regard to who was being played and how often etc...
 

SilentHunter7

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Nov 21, 2007
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Wait, if the game maker licensed the music to be in the game, and the retailer licensed the game to demo, doesn't the retailer have a limited license to play that music as part of the game demo, ipso facto?

This is a load of bullshit, and I'd ignore any C&D's. If they sue, try to get it thrown out on bad faith.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Treblaine said:
Talking to games retail staff they do seem very defensive about their business; they complain about Steam, they complain about HMV, they complain about CEX (specially games re-seller), even how DLC is cutting them out of the loop.

Gaming retail is not long for this world, you know the Publisher sell games to retailers at $30 per game who then sell on for $60 per game. Even then due to licensing Publishers only get $16 per game as income before even factoring development and marketing costs.

Retail stores are going to HAVE to adapt and offer a far more unique service.
Well, I don't think retail stores are in that much trouble to be honest. At least not for a while. Things like "Project $10" and the like are the biggest hit to them, in general a lot of people still want physical copies of their games that aren't just "connect to steam" programs (which a lot of people are complaining about in increasing numbers). The whole digital thing benefits the companies, but not really the consumers. While they are trying to find ways of forcing the issue, I really think retail is just whining. My area (in the USA) has three Gamestops within a couple of miles, and a mall with two seperate ones in it. I just don't think game retail is in any major danger looking at that.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Raven said:
Ah PRS strikes again... Fucking jobsworths!

They have a completely bullshit "law" stating that shops aren't even allowed to put on a radio incase somebody gets to -heaven forbid- listen to some free music.... From a radio station.... Which broadcasts music....FOR FREE!!!

If the record companies had such a big problem with people hearing music for free, they wouldn't bend over backwards paying out millions of pounds to get the latest shitty ndubz single played on radio sh1te every hour.

PRS doesn't even pay the artists that get heard. It just collects a fee to pay it's own staff and record labels with no regard to who was being played and how often etc...
From the way it sounds to me, the situation is a bit less straightforward than it sounds. It seems to me that the effort here is to harass "mom and pops" stores. Bigger chains have little to worry about, but still lose business to smaller, local businesses, and those that are still around are fairly resiliant. Moves like this tend to be indirectly tracked back to the bigger companies for whom such fees are trivial. This is probably why this kind of nickel and dime stuff doesn't make sense when viewed from the perspective of someone profiting off of it directly. The situation is probably that most of the sales come from the large stores and chains to begin with, and those stores are willing to pay money or offer benefits (such as even larger bulk purchuses of product than they normally make) in exchange for the music industry and the PRS engaging in some harassment of their competition.

I say this because while this exact thing has not happened in the USA, companies like WAL*MART and Target have been caught doing equally dubious things, in the mass media it falls under the general catagory of "predatory business practices", where you have to do a lot of digging to find out the specifics in a lot of cases. In many cases what they are doing isn't illegal, even if it's dirty, and in cases where something is illegal they have a tendency to just wind up paying a fine from the petty cash drawer, the damage having been done and well worth the cost in the final equasion. Hence why those chains get such a bad rap. What's more you'll find that a lot of people in our local and state goverments will cooperate with such chains in harassing their own citizens, because these large stores are good for the economy, a Wal*Mart will typically wind up employing a lot of local people, far more than small businesses (which might be owner or family operated exclusively) do. It might not be fair, but in the end when it comes down to the choice between employing 200 or more local people in many cases, and the operation of Billy Bob's local store, which is owned by operated by, and employs only one person: Billy Bob, the choice is pretty obvious. It doesn't hurt if the big businesses also wind up lining your pockets as well. ( an intentionally simplistic example )

I'll also say that I think this is one of the problems that comes from the UK having such strict anti-gun laws. While similar things happen in the US they don't get quite so overt or obnoxious with the copyright laws, because the people just generally won't stand for it. Yes, having a lot of armed citizens around causes a lot of deaths (OMG! Noes!) but at the same time it also means the goverment tends to be fairly careful about what it does which is the point. Not so much because of a threat of any kind of wide-scale revolution, but simply because when push comes to shove it's always some cop that winds up having to walk in there and enforce that law for it to matter at all. Cops do a job that is dangerous by it's nature, but there is an element to "is it worth it" to the equasion with an armed populance. The police do harass people, but not quite as bad as in a lot of other countries, and we also avoid a lot of more obnoxious laws because an American cop always knows that there is a chance the guy he is going to unfairly harass or shake down might decide to pull a gun. Even though the police are armed, this encourages a degree of restraint. This is why you generally don't see the police being used officially as muscle for business purposes. In the UK it's probably not hard to get the general consensus to make these laws, because in the end the police have little to fear if they have to wind up coming in to do something if people push back too hard. In the US on the other hand they have to weigh whether or not it's worth potnetially getting into a gunfight over. It's not just about the risk to the police either, I mean not a whole lot of people are going to like the idea of basically killing someone who resists being shaken down. A lot of cops don't do the job because they want to be thugs, no matter how it may look to citizens at times. What's more politicians look like idiots if they pass laws that wind up failing because the police refuse to enforce them. That does happen which leads to laws being removed, or simply never enforced, leading to a lot of those stupid "there is actually a law for this" discussions, involving obscure laws that few people ever heard of because some politician thought it was a good idea and the police more or less decided that they simply were not going to enforce it. This is what leads to some of the loophole stupidity in our legal system as well, when some lawyer brings up a really obscure piece of law that might not be enforced on the street, but can't be ignored when proven to be valid in a proceeding like a trial or whatever. It's not always bad either, I remember a list back when I was in criminal justice of "stupid laws used to hold criminals" that were pulled out to do things like prevent murderers and drug dealers from walking out, garbage like "the crime of chewing tobacco more than five feet away from a designated spittoon", BS, but enough to hold so they wouldn't walk away and disappeared. Of course the examples I read were intentionally loaded because the people involved were convicted after the fact despite the stupidity. I'm sure there are cases where it wasn't quite like that.
 

Treblaine

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Therumancer said:
... in general a lot of people still want physical copies of their games that aren't just "connect to steam" programs (which a lot of people are complaining about in increasing numbers). The whole digital thing benefits the companies, but not really the consumers....
Look if the publishers are getting so hurt by the retail system that they only get $16 of a $60 game and STILL have to spend assloads of cash on advertising, that hurt is going to be passed onto the consumers with them taking less risks and being more money-grubbing.

I also find Steam directly benefits the consumer with its many generous Steam Sales, these are the BEST ways to buy games in terms of lowest price and reliability. Though at the same time I appreciate and sometimes use the "activate on steam" (Buy game in retail, use Disc Key to get a steam version).

I haven't missed physical copies and I've been gaming since the N64 era, plastic mementos are nice and all but really only one thing matters; the game. And that's just a series of 1's and 0's that can be downloaded and transferred wherever you like.
 

Baresark

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SilentHunter7 said:
Wait, if the game maker licensed the music to be in the game, and the retailer licensed the game to demo, doesn't the retailer have a limited license to play that music as part of the game demo, ipso facto?

This is a load of bullshit, and I'd ignore any C&D's. If they sue, try to get it thrown out on bad faith.
You can take it even further and say that they need to make sure everyone in the store doesn't own a copy of that song, otherwise the consumers shopping there already own the right to listen to the music and the store therefore does not have to pay because people are hearing a song they already paid to be able to listen to.

OT: Just another way IP licensing is ruining the world. They bully the store because consumers themselves would laugh in their face. Also, who is to say these people represent the things they say they represent. It sounds to me that they can only say that about music that is in games and also on the radio, so if they demo games that aren't music and rhythm games with licensed music, would there be a problem with that (i.e. The Gears of War Soundtrack)? The upside seems to be is they caught up with that particular genre of game on the back end, since the popularity of those games are way down.

This is very similar to getting permits to improve your home. The state comes in and says you need permits for X,Y, and Z. You get them, pay exorbitant fees to get them, and the inspector comes along and either passes you or fails you. The kicker is, these guys don't know shit about shit and wouldn't know the first thing about home improvement, so they pass you or fail you what is a whim.
 

Medgeth

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Mar 30, 2009
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Yeah these PRS people suck, my mother runs a crafts stall, not a shop, a stall, in a market, and they wanted her to get a license to play the radio, but hadn't gone to any other stall owners. Needless to say she told them to go jam it, and they haven't been heard from for months now.
If these people were school bullies they wouldn't get very far, just walk up to you and ask for your lunch money, politely, and then leave without incident when you tell them to bugger off.
 

Smooth Operator

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Oct 5, 2010
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This shows how retarded these license laws are, so showing a demo with all it's content is ok yet somehow music has a devine seal that makes it exempt?!
The publisher already payed you for that music and it's distribution now you want to charge again?

How long before we haveto pay an extra fee for games with licensed music....
 

sosolidshoe

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May 17, 2010
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Daemascus said:
Shouldnt the music be covered by the license fee from the game makers? And what about arcade versons of the games?
PRS are a bunch of thugs using interpretations of law which were made decades or even a century ago in order to extort money from anyone and everyone they can. Listen to a radio in your shop? PUBLIC PERFORMANCE OF MUSIC! Play some tunes out of your phone on the bus? PUBLIC PERFORMANCE OF MUSIC! Put in a demo unit playing games with music? PUBLIC PERFORMANCE OF MUSIC!

They're fucking parasites who make their money by finding the smallest businesses they can, so said businesses can't afford to fight PRS's interpretation in court, and then descend on them demanding a yearly fee.
 

comadorcrack

The Master of Speilingz
Mar 19, 2009
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Unkillable Cat said:
The PRS is notorious for this. They will chase any and every business to try and sqeeze money out. I used to run a clothing boutique and had repeated arguments with them. The worst thing is, no matter how often they threatened they would never come down and check. Instead they would do random calls in the off-chance you had music on when they answered:
Ho ho. Yeah. My dad worked for the PRS when he was still working. I went out with him a few times, they're always trying to catch you off guard. ALWAYS!
 

pillinjer

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Feb 12, 2010
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strangeotron said:
But why aren't the shops' existing licenses enough to cover music from consoles as well?
Actually they are as the PRS statement says. The problem lies with those stores that dont have music playing normally. So HMV, GAME etc are fine, but the smaller stores that have no music wouldnt normally need to buy a licence. PRS are now pointing out to the shopowners that they do.

As I worked for a while at an independant record label as the accounts guy, Im slightly for PRS on this one. It means that songwriters and publishers get paid for people playing their songs, and if cafes have to pay to play the music why should game stores which use the music for advertising (admittedly the game they are selling) get away with it. As they pointed out you can mute the console, as a storeowner you wouldnt want to because half the point is the music.