Understanding Dark Souls difficulty

[zinho73]

Just cause I can't solve the 4x4 rubik's cube and I can only solve the 3x3 doesn't mean I can't appreciate your ability.

Rubik's cube is actually a pretty good example that not everything needs an easy mode. There's no "easy" mode for Rubik's cube.

You play to your limit and with guides, patience and dedication you can surpass that limit.

If there were an easy version of the cube it would not have the popularity and longevity that it has now, i can guarantee you that. It became famous because it was a somewhat complex and different thing unlike other toys in the market.

As you said, to beat the cube is something that it is easily seen in any culture and in any place as a matter of some skill. Also, there would be no point in playing with the thing if anyone could solve it in five minutes - the time and money of the toy industry would be much better spent building other toys for a broader audience.

The point of the cube is to solve the puzzle;
The point of Dark Souls is to beat the difficulty (with such a variety of tools that sometimes it is simply not difficult at all).

 

[zinho73]

On the subject of combat, just my two cents:

I find that it has simple mechanisms that allows somewhat complex interactions. If you wanna to keep it simple, you can. If you take advantage of the flexibility it can offer, you will be more efficient (or at least have more fun).

 

[Thomas Holland]

"I've only played the game for 20min and not bothered to learn any of the techniques or strategies or come up with any of my own so I think this game should have an easy mode that will point me to every objective so I can sleepwalk through it like practically every other game out at the moment. Why are you all telling me I don't get it? You guys are elitist wankers who must have cheated to get through the game at all because it actually teaches you NOTHING. I swing my sword and do fuck-all damage and then my guy gets tired. This is shit. Why isn't there a tutorial?"

 

[Something Amyss]

From my perspective, I agree that an easy mode cheapens the experiences and acomplishments of the game but I also agree that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. The reason why I think its ok to ask for tips or look things up is it offers assistance in the form of knowledge but it still requires a person to rise to the challenge. In this way a mode isnt being added to the game where everyone is expected to beat it, instead each individual is better armed for the encounters. Knowledge is just another weapon in the players arsenal and they have to make use of it to win

But now you are literally holding their hands in a way an easy mode can't ever do.

 

[Windcaler]

From my perspective, I agree that an easy mode cheapens the experiences and acomplishments of the game but I also agree that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. The reason why I think its ok to ask for tips or look things up is it offers assistance in the form of knowledge but it still requires a person to rise to the challenge. In this way a mode isnt being added to the game where everyone is expected to beat it, instead each individual is better armed for the encounters. Knowledge is just another weapon in the players arsenal and they have to make use of it to win

But now you are literally holding their hands in a way an easy mode can't ever do.

An easy mode is a mode of gameplay where the difficulty is reduced so much that anyone can clear it. There is no chance of failure with it and by extension no accomplishment for beating the game. I believe it also cheapens the accomplishments of those of us who beat dark souls in its current form

However arming someone with knowledge is not holding their hands. I would be holding their hands if I took the controller from them and did it myself. As I said, arming a person with knowledge requires them to make use of it. I can tell or show someone how to beat a boss or bypass an area but it still requires them to apply that knowledge to their gameplay.

Let me try to give an example (this will not be a perfect example since following a recepie is far different from adapting to a combat system in a game). Lets say I know how to make some awesome fried chicken. I give you all the information you need to know to make my awesome fried chicken. You still have to prepare the chicken, put on the right seasonings, and cook it right. So lets say you succeed in making the awesome fried chicken, now did I make it or did you make it?

While Im thinking about it, could you give us your definition of hand holding and easy modes?

 

[infinity_turtles]

From my perspective, I agree that an easy mode cheapens the experiences and acomplishments of the game but I also agree that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. The reason why I think its ok to ask for tips or look things up is it offers assistance in the form of knowledge but it still requires a person to rise to the challenge. In this way a mode isnt being added to the game where everyone is expected to beat it, instead each individual is better armed for the encounters. Knowledge is just another weapon in the players arsenal and they have to make use of it to win

But now you are literally holding their hands in a way an easy mode can't ever do.

One's an active attempt to improve their knowledge in order to more easily find a secret or overcome a challenge. The other is wanting a secret to be accessible to everyone as opposed to only those who seek it out, and thus not a secret, or altering a challenge so it no longer requires knowledge or investment of thought or effort.

I think something a lot of people don't just get is, there's a certain satisfaction that, for some people at least, comes from doing something that requires investment of more then just time. While you might be doing the same things, the knowledge that had you taken a very clearly marked option you could've accomplished things so much more efficiently can drain, lessen, and cheapen the feeling of accomplishment you get from doing things the hard way. For people who feel like that and like games with those sorts of strict requirements, there are very few new games like that nowadays. And when people demand an easy-mode in the Souls games, they're demanding one of the last quality series of that niche to change to suit their wants.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

While I am usually for gamers having choice in how they play their games (I dislike always-online requirements, I dislike how some games like Dead Rising only support HDTVs, and I prefer good optimization for PC ports). I agree that making Dark Souls easier is not the way to go.

Dark Souls would not be memorable without the amount of time it takes to understand it. I understand there are some players who want to play the game without taking that much time, but to me adding an easy-mode is going remove more fun from the game.

 

[sonofliber]

lol, i love this, people still say "dont make easy mode" just because they want to brag,im sure people really respect you for winning dark souls, you know like people buying you drinks and girls giving you their phone numbers (oh wait they dont, they dont care, since either they dont have the skill or the time to win this game, they dont give a shait, so instead of them winning dark souls (giving the company more money to make bigger and better games) and you bragging about the difficulty and they understanding it (like one of the obove posters says), they answer is: so you have a lot of free time then)

 

[lapan]

Skyrim require a hell of a lot more thought with combat than demon souls ever did, especially with stealth, archery, or magic (melee not so much).

I only partially agree. Stealth may require some thought at the start but quickly becomes so overpowered that any strategy becomes unnecessary. Skyrims melee was inferior to Dark Souls melee. As i didnt play archery in either game i can't comment on that.

Magic on the other hand is superior in Skyrim.

lol, i love this, people still say "dont make easy mode" just because they want to brag,im sure people really respect you for winning dark souls, you know like people buying you drinks and girls giving you their phone numbers (oh wait they dont, they dont care, since either they dont have the skill or the time to win this game, they dont give a shait, so instead of them winning dark souls (giving the company more money to make bigger and better games) and you bragging about the difficulty and they understanding it (like one of the obove posters says), they answer is: so you have a lot of free time then)

The majority fears that it wouldnt be the same game anymore and people would find it boring without the challenge. Only a very small part truly cares about the bragging factor.

 

[zinho73]

lol, i love this, people still say "dont make easy mode" just because they want to brag,im sure people really respect you for winning dark souls, you know like people buying you drinks and girls giving you their phone numbers (oh wait they dont, they dont care, since either they dont have the skill or the time to win this game, they dont give a shait, so instead of them winning dark souls (giving the company more money to make bigger and better games) and you bragging about the difficulty and they understanding it (like one of the obove posters says), they answer is: so you have a lot of free time then)

The bragging rights is really not what this thread is about. It had been actually frequently mentioned by the people defending the existence of an easy mode, but most of the arguments against the easy mode are not of this nature (at least in this thread).

Yeah, the bragging do exist, but it simply has zero value for many players.

 

[zinho73]

Also, a lot of people do not seem to differentiate between someone proud and happy of beating a challenge from someone who is bragging about it.

Which leads me to believe that a lot of bitterness is actually on the other side of the equation.

 

[zinho73]

While I am usually for gamers having choice in how they play their games (I dislike always-online requirements, I dislike how some games like Dead Rising only support HDTVs, and I prefer good optimization for PC ports). I agree that making Dark Souls easier is not the way to go.

Dark Souls would not be memorable without the amount of time it takes to understand it. I understand there are some players who want to play the game without taking that much time, but to me adding an easy-mode is going remove more fun from the game.

Yeah. I guess they are both different things, though.

We really should have a say in the way we consume things: pricing, availability, marketing, quality, etc. We should see this as a right.

But we should be a little bit more conscious when trying to change what the thing actually is. In that case, I think we should put a little bit more of thought in the matter because although there is nothing inherently wrong in stating opinions in order to shape the market, we have to understand that sometimes the change we crave for is not a right but a wish.

But because the concept is subjective, sometimes those things get really mixed up, though. Mass Effect 3 endings for example were viewed as something so unbelievably bad that it crossed the line between artistic vision and flat out product quality (tied to a good measure of false advertising).

But I think that in Dark Souls the artistic merit and design vision are much more clear and way easier to defend.

 

[Ryotknife]

Skyrim require a hell of a lot more thought with combat than demon souls ever did, especially with stealth, archery, or magic (melee not so much).

I only partially agree. Stealth may require some thought at the start but quickly becomes so overpowered that any strategy becomes unnecessary. Skyrims melee was inferior to Dark Souls melee. As i didnt play archery in either game i can't comment on that.

Magic on the other hand is superior in Skyrim.

lol, i love this, people still say "dont make easy mode" just because they want to brag,im sure people really respect you for winning dark souls, you know like people buying you drinks and girls giving you their phone numbers (oh wait they dont, they dont care, since either they dont have the skill or the time to win this game, they dont give a shait, so instead of them winning dark souls (giving the company more money to make bigger and better games) and you bragging about the difficulty and they understanding it (like one of the obove posters says), they answer is: so you have a lot of free time then)

The majority fears that it wouldnt be the same game anymore and people would find it boring without the challenge. Only a very small part truly cares about the bragging factor.

I will admit...there is a large scaling problem in skyrim combat. Although typically that only takes place after you dumped a lot of hours. skyrim combat is not by any means perfect....or close to perfect.

and as a sidenote to the topic being discussed by various posters, i do not care about easy mode. Hell, i dont even mind if a soul game is released every year. I wont play them, but there are many people who enjoy them as is. I wont play horror games either because i do not see the appeal in being scared personally, doesnt mean i wanted Dead Space 3 to tone down the horror aspect (if rumors are true).

Altas has obviously created a great game series.

It just irks me when people say that the combat is complex and requires a great deal of thought.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

While I am usually for gamers having choice in how they play their games (I dislike always-online requirements, I dislike how some games like Dead Rising only support HDTVs, and I prefer good optimization for PC ports). I agree that making Dark Souls easier is not the way to go.

Dark Souls would not be memorable without the amount of time it takes to understand it. I understand there are some players who want to play the game without taking that much time, but to me adding an easy-mode is going remove more fun from the game.

Yeah. I guess they are both different things, though.

We really should have a say in the way we consume things: pricing, availability, marketing, quality, etc. We should see this as a right.

But we should be a little bit more conscious when trying to change what the thing actually is. In that case, I think we should put a little bit more of thought in the matter because although there is nothing inherently wrong in stating opinions in order to shape the market, we have to understand that sometimes the change we crave for is not a right but a wish.

But because the concept is subjective, sometimes those things get really mixed up, though. Mass Effect 3 endings for example were viewed as something so unbelievably bad that it crossed the line between artistic vision and flat out product quality (tied to a good measure of false advertising).

But I think that in Dark Souls the artistic merit and design vision are much more clear and way easier to defend.

Very well said!

They are indeed different things, one is on a more technical/economic level whilst the other is more related to the actual "game part" of the game.

But I fear that people (not including me though) will argue that an easy mode should be considered for "player optimization."



But I agree

 

[Something Amyss]

Most of the information people look up online regarding the game is acquiring a special weapon or piece of armor; Something that requires you to offer up a Boss soul.

Apart from one Boss, there's no information that will make the game easier.

Yeah, no. I'm sorry, but I already know that much is bullshit.

 

[Something Amyss]

Making the mechanics of this game easy will make the secrets useless because you don't need them.

Yes, I forgot that there are no options for Dark Souls other than cripplingly hard and cakewalk. There couldn't possibly be an "easy" mode that is only "easy" in relation to the difficulty of Dark Souls. Gamers will waltz through this game blindfolded if there is an easier option. Lo, even my grandmother will be able to beat it, because there are only too settings: LOL NOOB and pr0

 

[CAPTCHA]

I'm all for an "easy" mode if that easy mode is simply a well constructed tutorial and acts as a way to ease people into the game. I don't think the game is as hard as people like to make out anyway, so preserving that difficulty isn't all important.

Playing Civ on the latter difficulties is hard; playing Ninja Gaiden on Master Ninja mode is hard; playing Doom on Nightmare is hard. All of these are hard for difference reasons which require a different set of skills, but the difficulty in Dark Souls (while still more dificult than your typical AAA game) comes mainly from a lack of direction and the need to experiment to learn gameplay mechanics, move sets and item locations. Once you've had a good read of the manual/wiki to learn what does what, played the game a few time to learn where your time is best spent, as well as mastered the somewhat tricky control scheme, the game's a breeze.

As evidence, I'm playing through the game at the moment with the following challenge: no leveling up and no turning human (so no Co-op, invasion, kindling). So far I've only failed to retrieve my blood stain once and that was due to the game bugging out and getting stuck in the geometry, followed by death by camera angle when the game decided it wanted to show me the backside of a platform in blight town when I was trying to fight a giant.

 

[zinho73]

Making the mechanics of this game easy will make the secrets useless because you don't need them.

Yes, I forgot that there are no options for Dark Souls other than cripplingly hard and cakewalk. There couldn't possibly be an "easy" mode that is only "easy" in relation to the difficulty of Dark Souls. Gamers will waltz through this game blindfolded if there is an easier option. Lo, even my grandmother will be able to beat it, because there are only too settings: LOL NOOB and pr0

If you know the secrets, a large chunk of the difficulty is removed. Most of the fun in the game is just making things that were difficult easy for you (either by skill or knowledge). If you are trying to make the game easier than that, you are really aiming for a different type of game.

As I said, people are not interested in an easier experience(as the game is now, you can outlevel the content and murder everything in sight), they want a faster way to complete the same content, but this is simply not the design philosophy.

 

[TrevHead]

No handholding means, gamers who love secrets can discover new things, share ideas and talk about the game to others and build the wiki, it creates a community around the game. I'm sure most of you guys did the same at school sharing tips for 8/16bit games or Pokemon.

Having everything on the wiki or manual means someone can tailer the game to suit themselves, that includes the difficulty curve. Handholding and Difficulty curves are suited to different ppl are the biggest things that most devs tend to ignore or do right. Most just tend to go for the lowest common demoninator and put in badly thought out and balanced hard modes.

I'm all for an "easy" mode if that easy mode is simply a well constructed tutorial and acts as a way to ease people into the game. I don't think the game is as hard as people like to make out anyway, so preserving that difficulty isn't all important.

This has already been said in the video but i'll elaborate on it.

Take away the zero handholding, secrets & difficulty and whats left of the game? Easy mode players would burn through the game because it's quite short and anybody wanting an RPG like experience would feel ripped of if they bought the game for full RRP. Sure they can buy it for £10 used months later but in the end it devalues the game to something not much better off than a $1 iphone game, the AAA sinpleplayer games industry is going through hard times atm because they are making a fuck ton of content for ppl to zip through quickly.

Look at Mirrors Edge, theres actually alot of content in the game but because the player runs through it quickly most gamers feel the game isn't worth full RRP, so now EA is scratching their head because they don't know what to do with it and making everygame MP or F2P, but most gamers seem to think thats ok while oldschool games get labelled as "bad game design" or "artificial difficulty"

Shmups are exactly the same thing, someone will buy a £25 CAVE shmup which they hear are good games and then creditfeed till the end and feel ripped off because they've just payed £25 for a game they feel they only got 30minutes of enjoyment out of it. Most shmup fans would stay well away from credit feeding use only 1 or 2 credits and spend weeks, months even years munching through the content till they see the ending credits.

 

[Stavros Dimou]

So you want to defend its difficulty ha ?

Explain me this: An enemy is near a wall and I am on the other side of the wall.

If the enemy attacks,his weapon glitches and passes through the wall and hurts me.

If I attack,my weapon hits the wall and I hear the "glang!" sound.


The game has smart selective glitches that always happen in favor of the enemies.
That's not fair.