Understanding Dark Souls difficulty

[infinity_turtles]

So you want to defend its difficulty ha ?

Explain me this: An enemy is near a wall and I am on the other side of the wall.

If the enemy attacks,his weapon glitches and passes through the wall and hurts me.

If I attack,my weapon hits the wall and I hear the "glang!" sound.


The game has smart selective glitches that always happen in favor of the enemies.
That's not fair.

That's not a glitch. Enemies weapons just don't bounce off walls, which is mostly to ensure you can't just lure every enemy that swings up against a wall and abuse the limitations of the AI. That said, that is something people complain about, but given how many enemies will freely jump off cliffs, including multiple bosses, it's a limitation I'm willing to accept to maintain the design philosophy.

 

[Windcaler]

Ive heard a lot of ideas that support not adding an easy mode at this point, many of which I agree with. However I havnt really heard any convincing arguments for the inclusion of an easy mode.

For those wanting an easy mode can you explain why from an artistic or mechanical standpoint an easy mode should be included?

Im not including the business side because I think its a fair point that making the game more accessible may create more sales and more money for the company. However this also operates on the fallacy that accessibility equals more sales, but I still think its a fair point

@Zachary Amaranth: I noticed you failed to answer my questions about the awesome fried chicken and your definitions for hand holding and easy modes. Do you not intend to answer them or did you just miss the post?

 

[RomanceIsDead]

Just cause I can't solve the 4x4 rubik's cube and I can only solve the 3x3 doesn't mean I can't appreciate your ability.

Rubik's cube is actually a pretty good example that not everything needs an easy mode. There's no "easy" mode for Rubik's cube.

You play to your limit and with guides, patience and dedication you can surpass that limit.

If there were an easy version of the cube it would not have the popularity and longevity that it has now, i can guarantee you that. It became famous because it was a somewhat complex and different thing unlike other toys in the market.

As you said, to beat the cube is something that it is easily seen in any culture and in any place as a matter of some skill. Also, there would be no point in playing with the thing if anyone could solve it in five minutes - the time and money of the toy industry would be much better spent building other toys for a broader audience.

The point of the cube is to solve the puzzle;
The point of Dark Souls is to beat the difficulty (with such a variety of tools that sometimes it is simply not difficult at all).

cheesy metaphors aside I think its worth pointing out that there is a significant number of players who play on easy mode only, and what I'm saying is--yes it would make the community bigger because the majority of gamers these days are casuals...

you do realize there is some crazy statistic where like..for any given game only 5% complete the thing...

 

[TrevHead]

you do realize there is some crazy statistic where like..for any given game only 5% complete the thing...

Yeah i've seen articles with devs moaning that only a tiny % actually finish the game, their solution seems to be make the game easier however...

Is it down to the fact that the is game isn't easy enough? Or is the game so boring and long drawn out that most ppl quit to play something else? I'm honestly unsure.

 

[Burst6]

Making the mechanics of this game easy will make the secrets useless because you don't need them.

Yes, I forgot that there are no options for Dark Souls other than cripplingly hard and cakewalk. There couldn't possibly be an "easy" mode that is only "easy" in relation to the difficulty of Dark Souls. Gamers will waltz through this game blindfolded if there is an easier option. Lo, even my grandmother will be able to beat it, because there are only too settings: LOL NOOB and pr0

The sarcasm is unnecessary.

So what do you want then? Do you want a mode where you are faster have more HP and do more damage without it being too easy? Go ahead and put all your points in VIT and END, buy some heave armor, get the darkwood grain ring + havel's ring, and get a nice lightning weapon. There, you're a fast moving tank with a weapon that can match most specialized high stat weapons. You can now tank most hits without flinching or losing too much HP and flip around like a ninja. Invest some souls into pyromancy and you got some nice ranged fire damage skills.

Or do you want it easier than that? tell me, how would you make dark souls easier without it being "LOL NOOB".

 

[Arina Love]

i didn't buy dark souls because it's didn't have easy difficulty. More varied difficulties = more people are able to enjoy it = more people will buy it. i do not wish to rethink myself as a gamer all i want is experience of a game with difficulty i find comfortable. You don't really need to "understand" it's difficulty its ether you like it or don't. Preaching about it wouldn't sway people one way or the other or at least it's didn't showed me what so good about it.
There is absolutely no reason why Easy mode shouldn't be in Dark Souls.

 

[phantasmalWordsmith]

Dark souls is one of my all time favourite games, I wouldn't change a thing about it. It's beautiful, in both visuals and as a game. Other games are fun and relaxing, but no other game is as rewarding and fulfilling as Dark Souls

 

[Windcaler]

i didn't buy dark souls because it's didn't have easy difficulty. i do not wish to rethink myself as a gamer all i want is experience of a game with difficulty i find comfortable. You don't really need to "understand" it's difficulty its ether you like it or don't. Preaching about it wouldn't sway people one way or the other or at least it's didn't showed me what so good about it.
There is absolutely no reason why Easy mode shouldn't be in Dark Souls.

If you just want to experience a game that has a difficulty you are comfortable with then Dark souls probably isnt for you. There are a ton of other games with easy modes and that have the fantasy elements such as Dragon Age or anything in the elder scrolls series. Why would you come to dark souls, knowing its high difficulty and unforgiving nature, if you know its difficulty isnt something you are comfortable with?

The reason why its so unforgiving is partly because of artistic choice. Yes Im going to start banging the games are art drum because I dont think people understand that point. They're treating Dark souls as a product that should conform to their desires instead of a piece of art which has its own artistic focuses and choices. The reason why I say the difficulty is an artistic choice is because it gives players accomplishments but to have those accomplishments there also needs to be a chance of failure. Im not talking about failure as in dying in the game, Im talking about the only true and lasting failure: To put down the game and never pick it up again (or in your case never buy it in the first place).

This brings up a question that hung around the whole mass effect 3 endings debacle. In that case gamers were promised things and no one delivered so they had every right to be mad IMO. However the question remains: Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game?

 

[Arina Love]

i didn't buy dark souls because it's didn't have easy difficulty. i do not wish to rethink myself as a gamer all i want is experience of a game with difficulty i find comfortable. You don't really need to "understand" it's difficulty its ether you like it or don't. Preaching about it wouldn't sway people one way or the other or at least it's didn't showed me what so good about it.
There is absolutely no reason why Easy mode shouldn't be in Dark Souls.

If you just want to experience a game that has a difficulty you are comfortable with then Dark souls probably isnt for you. There are a ton of other games with easy modes and that have the fantasy elements such as Dragon Age or anything in the elder scrolls series. Why would you come to dark souls, knowing its high difficulty and unforgiving nature, if you know its difficulty isnt something you are comfortable with?

The reason why its so unforgiving is partly because of artistic choice. Yes Im going to start banging the games are art drum because I dont think people understand that point. They're treating Dark souls as a product that should conform to their desires instead of a piece of art which has its own artistic focuses and choices. The reason why I say the difficulty is an artistic choice is because it gives players accomplishments but to have those accomplishments there also needs to be a chance of failure. Im not talking about failure as in dying in the game, Im talking about the only true and lasting failure: To put down the game and never pick it up again (or in your case never buy it in the first place).

This brings up a question that hung around the whole mass effect 3 endings debacle. In that case gamers were promised things and no one delivered so they had every right to be mad IMO. However the question remains: Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game?

Sorry but i just do not see how difficulty as artistic method. i get same sense of satisfaction ether way. " To put down the game and never pick it up again" it's called wasted money and wasted customers in future. Bad for business.
If company already talking abut implementing easy mode: ether there is demand for lower difficulty or they don't sell enough because of limited appeal of a game.
Easy mode will not hurt anybody, you will still have same hard experience but there will be expanded appeal of a game.

 

[Windcaler]

i didn't buy dark souls because it's didn't have easy difficulty. i do not wish to rethink myself as a gamer all i want is experience of a game with difficulty i find comfortable. You don't really need to "understand" it's difficulty its ether you like it or don't. Preaching about it wouldn't sway people one way or the other or at least it's didn't showed me what so good about it.
There is absolutely no reason why Easy mode shouldn't be in Dark Souls.

If you just want to experience a game that has a difficulty you are comfortable with then Dark souls probably isnt for you. There are a ton of other games with easy modes and that have the fantasy elements such as Dragon Age or anything in the elder scrolls series. Why would you come to dark souls, knowing its high difficulty and unforgiving nature, if you know its difficulty isnt something you are comfortable with?

The reason why its so unforgiving is partly because of artistic choice. Yes Im going to start banging the games are art drum because I dont think people understand that point. They're treating Dark souls as a product that should conform to their desires instead of a piece of art which has its own artistic focuses and choices. The reason why I say the difficulty is an artistic choice is because it gives players accomplishments but to have those accomplishments there also needs to be a chance of failure. Im not talking about failure as in dying in the game, Im talking about the only true and lasting failure: To put down the game and never pick it up again (or in your case never buy it in the first place).

This brings up a question that hung around the whole mass effect 3 endings debacle. In that case gamers were promised things and no one delivered so they had every right to be mad IMO. However the question remains: Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game?

Sorry but i just do not see how difficulty as artistic method. i get same sense of satisfaction ether way. " To put down the game and never pick it up again" it's called wasted money and wasted customers in future. Bad for business.
If company already talking abut implementing easy mode: ether there is demand for lower difficulty or they don't sell enough because of limited appeal of a game.
Easy mode will not hurt anybody, you will still have same hard experience but there will be expanded appeal of a game.

Im sorry but you are incorrect on each count. Lets talk about the company implementing the easy mode first. Hidetaka Miyazaki, the director of Dark souls, actually never said that. This was a "Mistranslation" written by Metro. After the article was published Namco/Bandai came out and said that this was not what he was saying. Metro then implied that it was what he was saying and went so far to take responsibility for changing his mind. You can see lots of misinformation like this from various news sites. Just google Dark souls 2 confirmed or Dark souls sequel confirmed. The fact is nothing has been confirmed but it generates hits, it makes people come to their news sites, and frankly its disgusting to see this kind of Journalism going on. So lets put up what Miyazaki really said "This fact [that not everyone beats dark souls] is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it."

Lets talk about the artistic side. Im going to start by quoting the stated goals of the game as translated from some of the developers before the game came out. "The difficulty in dark souls is a critical part of the experience. The goal of the game is to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery and the difficulty is an important tool to meet those ends." Think about that for a minute. "An important tool to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery". The thing about that statement is for those accomplishments to have any weight to them there must be the chance for failure (again failure being putting down the game and never picking it up again). Knowing the stated goals of the game can you explain to me how dark souls unforgiving difficulty is not an artistic choice?

Now finally lets talk about the fallacy that an easy mode will not effect the rest of the game. Now from my perspective, an easy mode is a reduced difficulty designed in such a way that anyone can beat the game, that anyone can win. This undermines the tool that the difficulty represents. The stated goals of the game are "to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery." but again for accomplishment to carry any weight you must have to have the chance to fail, but you cant fail in an easy mode because, by definition, everyone is supposed to be able to clear it.

On a more personal level, an easy mode even being in the game cheapens the accomplishments of the players who have beaten the game as it currently is. Dark souls is already very accessible, allowing anyone to play it. I truly believe that anyone can beat the game already if they dont give up. Eventually they will reach a point where they will adapt and overcome the challenge like I did. Eventually, as long as they dont fail, they will succeed and beat the game. At that point they can stand beside me and the rest of the souls community and say, with pride: I beat dark souls!

Now some gamers enjoy the fact that they can accomplish something that others cant. In this case their accomplishments are relative to the achievements of others so for them they care. I dont personally feel that way but its worth noting the opinion. You might not care and as a lot of people have already you may call them selfish but they obviously do care and if one could be called selfish for enjoying the fact that they could do something others cant then it could also be said that those wanting change so they can do that same thing are selfish as well. That argument is a two way street

 

[Arina Love]

i didn't buy dark souls because it's didn't have easy difficulty. i do not wish to rethink myself as a gamer all i want is experience of a game with difficulty i find comfortable. You don't really need to "understand" it's difficulty its ether you like it or don't. Preaching about it wouldn't sway people one way or the other or at least it's didn't showed me what so good about it.
There is absolutely no reason why Easy mode shouldn't be in Dark Souls.

If you just want to experience a game that has a difficulty you are comfortable with then Dark souls probably isnt for you. There are a ton of other games with easy modes and that have the fantasy elements such as Dragon Age or anything in the elder scrolls series. Why would you come to dark souls, knowing its high difficulty and unforgiving nature, if you know its difficulty isnt something you are comfortable with?

The reason why its so unforgiving is partly because of artistic choice. Yes Im going to start banging the games are art drum because I dont think people understand that point. They're treating Dark souls as a product that should conform to their desires instead of a piece of art which has its own artistic focuses and choices. The reason why I say the difficulty is an artistic choice is because it gives players accomplishments but to have those accomplishments there also needs to be a chance of failure. Im not talking about failure as in dying in the game, Im talking about the only true and lasting failure: To put down the game and never pick it up again (or in your case never buy it in the first place).

This brings up a question that hung around the whole mass effect 3 endings debacle. In that case gamers were promised things and no one delivered so they had every right to be mad IMO. However the question remains: Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game?

Sorry but i just do not see how difficulty as artistic method. i get same sense of satisfaction ether way. " To put down the game and never pick it up again" it's called wasted money and wasted customers in future. Bad for business.
If company already talking abut implementing easy mode: ether there is demand for lower difficulty or they don't sell enough because of limited appeal of a game.
Easy mode will not hurt anybody, you will still have same hard experience but there will be expanded appeal of a game.

Im sorry but you are incorrect on each count. Lets talk about the company implementing the easy mode first. Hidetaka Miyazaki, the director of Dark souls, actually never said that. This was a "Mistranslation" written by Metro. After the article was published Namco/Bandai came out and said that this was not what he was saying. Metro then implied that it was what he was saying and went so far to take responsibility for changing his mind. You can see lots of misinformation like this from various news sites. Just google Dark souls 2 confirmed or Dark souls sequel confirmed. The fact is nothing has been confirmed but it generates hits, it makes people come to their news sites, and frankly its disgusting to see this kind of Journalism going on. So lets put up what Miyazaki really said "This fact [that not everyone beats dark souls] is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it."

Lets talk about the artistic side. Im going to start by quoting the stated goals of the game as translated from some of the developers before the game came out. "The difficulty in dark souls is a critical part of the experience. The goal of the game is to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery and the difficulty is an important tool to meet those ends." Think about that for a minute. "An important tool to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery". The thing about that statement is for those accomplishments to have any weight to them there must be the chance for failure (again failure being putting down the game and never picking it up again). Knowing the stated goals of the game can you explain to me how dark souls unforgiving difficulty is not an artistic choice?

Now finally lets talk about the fallacy that an easy mode will not effect the rest of the game. Now from my perspective, an easy mode is a reduced difficulty designed in such a way that anyone can beat the game, that anyone can win. This undermines the tool that the difficulty represents. The stated goals of the game are "to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery." but again for accomplishment to carry any weight you must have to have the chance to fail, but you cant fail in an easy mode because, by definition, everyone is supposed to be able to clear it.

On a more personal level, an easy mode even being in the game cheapens the accomplishments of the players who have beaten the game as it currently is. Dark souls is already very accessible, allowing anyone to play it. I truly believe that anyone can beat the game already if they dont give up. Eventually they will reach a point where they will adapt and overcome the challenge like I did. Eventually, as long as they dont fail, they will succeed and beat the game. At that point they can stand beside me and the rest of the souls community and say, with pride: I beat dark souls!

except sense of accomplishment is subjective and same scale don't really apply to everyone. i for one get same sense of accomplishment in every game i play be it easy or hard.
Who said you can't fail on easy? You just have to have bigger tolerance for mistakes that's all.
it's called smart difficulty design.
So no it's not artistic choice it's mechanics choice to ease development of a game.

easy mode doesn't cheapens anything it's just becomes "i beat dark souls on hard." and why you even care if someone beat the game on other conditions than you? Sorry but that just reeks of elitism.

 

[Windcaler]

i didn't buy dark souls because it's didn't have easy difficulty. i do not wish to rethink myself as a gamer all i want is experience of a game with difficulty i find comfortable. You don't really need to "understand" it's difficulty its ether you like it or don't. Preaching about it wouldn't sway people one way or the other or at least it's didn't showed me what so good about it.
There is absolutely no reason why Easy mode shouldn't be in Dark Souls.

If you just want to experience a game that has a difficulty you are comfortable with then Dark souls probably isnt for you. There are a ton of other games with easy modes and that have the fantasy elements such as Dragon Age or anything in the elder scrolls series. Why would you come to dark souls, knowing its high difficulty and unforgiving nature, if you know its difficulty isnt something you are comfortable with?

The reason why its so unforgiving is partly because of artistic choice. Yes Im going to start banging the games are art drum because I dont think people understand that point. They're treating Dark souls as a product that should conform to their desires instead of a piece of art which has its own artistic focuses and choices. The reason why I say the difficulty is an artistic choice is because it gives players accomplishments but to have those accomplishments there also needs to be a chance of failure. Im not talking about failure as in dying in the game, Im talking about the only true and lasting failure: To put down the game and never pick it up again (or in your case never buy it in the first place).

This brings up a question that hung around the whole mass effect 3 endings debacle. In that case gamers were promised things and no one delivered so they had every right to be mad IMO. However the question remains: Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game?

Sorry but i just do not see how difficulty as artistic method. i get same sense of satisfaction ether way. " To put down the game and never pick it up again" it's called wasted money and wasted customers in future. Bad for business.
If company already talking abut implementing easy mode: ether there is demand for lower difficulty or they don't sell enough because of limited appeal of a game.
Easy mode will not hurt anybody, you will still have same hard experience but there will be expanded appeal of a game.

Im sorry but you are incorrect on each count. Lets talk about the company implementing the easy mode first. Hidetaka Miyazaki, the director of Dark souls, actually never said that. This was a "Mistranslation" written by Metro. After the article was published Namco/Bandai came out and said that this was not what he was saying. Metro then implied that it was what he was saying and went so far to take responsibility for changing his mind. You can see lots of misinformation like this from various news sites. Just google Dark souls 2 confirmed or Dark souls sequel confirmed. The fact is nothing has been confirmed but it generates hits, it makes people come to their news sites, and frankly its disgusting to see this kind of Journalism going on. So lets put up what Miyazaki really said "This fact [that not everyone beats dark souls] is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it."

Lets talk about the artistic side. Im going to start by quoting the stated goals of the game as translated from some of the developers before the game came out. "The difficulty in dark souls is a critical part of the experience. The goal of the game is to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery and the difficulty is an important tool to meet those ends." Think about that for a minute. "An important tool to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery". The thing about that statement is for those accomplishments to have any weight to them there must be the chance for failure (again failure being putting down the game and never picking it up again). Knowing the stated goals of the game can you explain to me how dark souls unforgiving difficulty is not an artistic choice?

Now finally lets talk about the fallacy that an easy mode will not effect the rest of the game. Now from my perspective, an easy mode is a reduced difficulty designed in such a way that anyone can beat the game, that anyone can win. This undermines the tool that the difficulty represents. The stated goals of the game are "to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery." but again for accomplishment to carry any weight you must have to have the chance to fail, but you cant fail in an easy mode because, by definition, everyone is supposed to be able to clear it.

On a more personal level, an easy mode even being in the game cheapens the accomplishments of the players who have beaten the game as it currently is. Dark souls is already very accessible, allowing anyone to play it. I truly believe that anyone can beat the game already if they dont give up. Eventually they will reach a point where they will adapt and overcome the challenge like I did. Eventually, as long as they dont fail, they will succeed and beat the game. At that point they can stand beside me and the rest of the souls community and say, with pride: I beat dark souls!

except sense of accomplishment is subjective and same scale don't really apply to everyone. i for one get same sense of accomplishment in every game i play be it easy or hard.
Who said you can't fail on easy? You just have to have bigger tolerance for mistakes that's all.
it's called smart difficulty design.
So no it's not artistic choice it's mechanics choice to ease development of a game.

easy mode doesn't cheapens anything it's just becomes "i beat dark souls on hard." and why you even care if someone beat the game on other conditions than you? Sorry but that just reeks of elitism.

To start Im not an elitist at all. I want everyone to play the game and enjoy it but I want them to rise up to my level of play instead of cheapening my accomplishments through an easy mode that goes against the very goals of the game. An elitist would simply tell you to suck it up and learn to play. They wouldnt engage you in intelligent debate as Im trying to

TrevHead actually made that point for me so Ill quote him at the very bottom so you can read what he wrote. For the record I agree with him, I am more of a purist. I want everyone to feel that sense of accomplishment and join our community. At no point have I said you shouldnt play the game but I have said things like "maybe its just not for you". More often then not I try to encourage people to raise their level of play.

Now you can call the difficulty level a mechanical choice, and it is in a way but that doesnt stop it from being an artistic choice as well. While you feel the same sense of accomplishment from an easy mode others dont, and I dont. Furthermore we do care because we feel it cheapens our own accomplishments and makes the game worse. You can say that an easy mode wouldnt matter but it does, as I said the meaning of an individuals accomplishments is relative to human achievement. You might not care, and thats fine, but you need to realize that not all players feel the same way. To answer your question, I care because if dark souls were to have an easy mode added I believe the experience would be lessened making the game objectively and subjectively worse. The stated goals of the game is to develop a feeling of accomplishment and discovery but for the third time this requires the chance of failure. An easy mode by definition is one that allows anyone to succeed and it goes against the very stated goals of the game. To feel like you accomplished something you have to have the chance to fail.

That said, I posed two questions that you have not answered thus far. Those being 1. Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game? and 2. Knowing the stated goals of the game can you explain to me how dark souls unforgiving difficulty is not an artistic choice?

and now TrevHead's quote. This has helped me come to the conclusion that we need some new terminology to talk about modern gaming.

I would say that everyone atleast watch that video because it makes the point better than any of us guys can.

The devs made this game with an artistic / gameplay focus, where every element comes together to make a near perfect game for those ppl who like this sort of thing. I would show a YT video that makes this point about Darksouls where the guy in the video mentions a German word meaning all the elements work together perfectly (i'm hoping someone else can link it).

Personally I think ppl are confusing elitism and gamers who are purists. An elitist would say that they don't want casuals stinking up the place, a purist would say yes please play this great game but within the confines of what the developer intended. The problem is that it's quite hard for purists to bring their arguments across when others automatically chalk them down as elitists. So in the end many purists just revert to saying get off my lawn rather than waste their time.

Purist or elitist whatever you feel DS gamers are, it doesn't mean that their own views and wants are any less than other gamers, and I don't see why one game which is catering to them should be watered down to suit others tastes, especially when their are plenty of other games to play.

Easy mode to many DS players is like EA wanting to put in capture the flag in Mirrors Edge 2 or co-op in Dead Space 3. PPl who like the originals react the same way, they aren't against co-op or capture the flag but don't want it in those 2 games because it goes against the original focus, to bring examples of other games which have co-op is mostly meaningless unless it's an exact clone, DS is unique to no direct comparisions can be applied.

If the Souls series hadn't been this big thing we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but the fact that it has proves that there is a sizable chunk of gamers who want this type of experience.

 

[Arina Love]

i didn't buy dark souls because it's didn't have easy difficulty. i do not wish to rethink myself as a gamer all i want is experience of a game with difficulty i find comfortable. You don't really need to "understand" it's difficulty its ether you like it or don't. Preaching about it wouldn't sway people one way or the other or at least it's didn't showed me what so good about it.
There is absolutely no reason why Easy mode shouldn't be in Dark Souls.

If you just want to experience a game that has a difficulty you are comfortable with then Dark souls probably isnt for you. There are a ton of other games with easy modes and that have the fantasy elements such as Dragon Age or anything in the elder scrolls series. Why would you come to dark souls, knowing its high difficulty and unforgiving nature, if you know its difficulty isnt something you are comfortable with?

The reason why its so unforgiving is partly because of artistic choice. Yes Im going to start banging the games are art drum because I dont think people understand that point. They're treating Dark souls as a product that should conform to their desires instead of a piece of art which has its own artistic focuses and choices. The reason why I say the difficulty is an artistic choice is because it gives players accomplishments but to have those accomplishments there also needs to be a chance of failure. Im not talking about failure as in dying in the game, Im talking about the only true and lasting failure: To put down the game and never pick it up again (or in your case never buy it in the first place).

This brings up a question that hung around the whole mass effect 3 endings debacle. In that case gamers were promised things and no one delivered so they had every right to be mad IMO. However the question remains: Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game?

Sorry but i just do not see how difficulty as artistic method. i get same sense of satisfaction ether way. " To put down the game and never pick it up again" it's called wasted money and wasted customers in future. Bad for business.
If company already talking abut implementing easy mode: ether there is demand for lower difficulty or they don't sell enough because of limited appeal of a game.
Easy mode will not hurt anybody, you will still have same hard experience but there will be expanded appeal of a game.

Im sorry but you are incorrect on each count. Lets talk about the company implementing the easy mode first. Hidetaka Miyazaki, the director of Dark souls, actually never said that. This was a "Mistranslation" written by Metro. After the article was published Namco/Bandai came out and said that this was not what he was saying. Metro then implied that it was what he was saying and went so far to take responsibility for changing his mind. You can see lots of misinformation like this from various news sites. Just google Dark souls 2 confirmed or Dark souls sequel confirmed. The fact is nothing has been confirmed but it generates hits, it makes people come to their news sites, and frankly its disgusting to see this kind of Journalism going on. So lets put up what Miyazaki really said "This fact [that not everyone beats dark souls] is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it."

Lets talk about the artistic side. Im going to start by quoting the stated goals of the game as translated from some of the developers before the game came out. "The difficulty in dark souls is a critical part of the experience. The goal of the game is to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery and the difficulty is an important tool to meet those ends." Think about that for a minute. "An important tool to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery". The thing about that statement is for those accomplishments to have any weight to them there must be the chance for failure (again failure being putting down the game and never picking it up again). Knowing the stated goals of the game can you explain to me how dark souls unforgiving difficulty is not an artistic choice?

Now finally lets talk about the fallacy that an easy mode will not effect the rest of the game. Now from my perspective, an easy mode is a reduced difficulty designed in such a way that anyone can beat the game, that anyone can win. This undermines the tool that the difficulty represents. The stated goals of the game are "to provide a sense of accomplishment and discovery." but again for accomplishment to carry any weight you must have to have the chance to fail, but you cant fail in an easy mode because, by definition, everyone is supposed to be able to clear it.

On a more personal level, an easy mode even being in the game cheapens the accomplishments of the players who have beaten the game as it currently is. Dark souls is already very accessible, allowing anyone to play it. I truly believe that anyone can beat the game already if they dont give up. Eventually they will reach a point where they will adapt and overcome the challenge like I did. Eventually, as long as they dont fail, they will succeed and beat the game. At that point they can stand beside me and the rest of the souls community and say, with pride: I beat dark souls!

except sense of accomplishment is subjective and same scale don't really apply to everyone. i for one get same sense of accomplishment in every game i play be it easy or hard.
Who said you can't fail on easy? You just have to have bigger tolerance for mistakes that's all.
it's called smart difficulty design.
So no it's not artistic choice it's mechanics choice to ease development of a game.

easy mode doesn't cheapens anything it's just becomes "i beat dark souls on hard." and why you even care if someone beat the game on other conditions than you? Sorry but that just reeks of elitism.

To start Im not an elitist at all. I want everyone to play the game and enjoy it but I want them to rise up to my level of play instead of cheapening my accomplishments through an easy mode that goes against the very goals of the game. An elitist would simply tell you to suck it up and learn to play. They wouldnt engage you in intelligent debate as Im trying to

TrevHead actually made that point for me so Ill quote him at the very bottom so you can read what he wrote. For the record I agree with him, I am more of a purist. I want everyone to feel that sense of accomplishment and join our community. At no point have I said you shouldnt play the game but I have said things like "maybe its just not for you". More often then not I try to encourage people to raise their level of play.

Now you can call the difficulty level a mechanical choice, and it is in a way but that doesnt stop it from being an artistic choice as well. While you feel the same sense of accomplishment from an easy mode others dont, and I dont. Furthermore we do care because we feel it cheapens our own accomplishments and makes the game worse. You can say that an easy mode wouldnt matter but it does, as I said the meaning of an individuals accomplishments is relative to human achievement. You might not care, and thats fine, but you need to realize that not all players feel the same way. To answer your question, I care because if dark souls were to have an easy mode added I believe the experience would be lessened making the game objectively and subjectively worse. The stated goals of the game is to develop a feeling of accomplishment and discovery but for the third time this requires the chance of failure. An easy mode by definition is one that allows anyone to succeed and it goes against the very stated goals of the game. To feel like you accomplished something you have to have the chance to fail.

That said, I posed two questions that you have not answered thus far. Those being 1. Do gamers have the right to tell a developer to jeopardize and even change their artistic vision for a game? and 2. Knowing the stated goals of the game can you explain to me how dark souls unforgiving difficulty is not an artistic choice?

and now TrevHead's quote. This has helped me come to the conclusion that we need some new terminology to talk about modern gaming.

I would say that everyone atleast watch that video because it makes the point better than any of us guys can.

The devs made this game with an artistic / gameplay focus, where every element comes together to make a near perfect game for those ppl who like this sort of thing. I would show a YT video that makes this point about Darksouls where the guy in the video mentions a German word meaning all the elements work together perfectly (i'm hoping someone else can link it).

Personally I think ppl are confusing elitism and gamers who are purists. An elitist would say that they don't want casuals stinking up the place, a purist would say yes please play this great game but within the confines of what the developer intended. The problem is that it's quite hard for purists to bring their arguments across when others automatically chalk them down as elitists. So in the end many purists just revert to saying get off my lawn rather than waste their time.

Purist or elitist whatever you feel DS gamers are, it doesn't mean that their own views and wants are any less than other gamers, and I don't see why one game which is catering to them should be watered down to suit others tastes, especially when their are plenty of other games to play.

Easy mode to many DS players is like EA wanting to put in capture the flag in Mirrors Edge 2 or co-op in Dead Space 3. PPl who like the originals react the same way, they aren't against co-op or capture the flag but don't want it in those 2 games because it goes against the original focus, to bring examples of other games which have co-op is mostly meaningless unless it's an exact clone, DS is unique to no direct comparisions can be applied.

If the Souls series hadn't been this big thing we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but the fact that it has proves that there is a sizable chunk of gamers who want this type of experience.

well i don't want to be at you "level" i'm comfortable at my own. i don't really care about your accomplishments and what you been through to achieve them nor do i care for some sort of "steet cred" for making it to the end.
as i said before easy difficulty not equals easy win. If done right it provides interesting game play with greater margin for errors.

 

[Shpongled]

See, the thing about Dark Souls is that, in terms of the combat itself, it's already a fairly easy game. Most trash mobs in the game can be killed in 1 or 2 hits without any risk of taking damage provided you know what their weaknesses are, and when it's safe to attack them. Pretty much the same thing can be said about the bosses too (although to a lesser extent), there are generally fairly simple procedures that can take them out, procedures that any old cack-handed player can perform easily enough provided they bother to give it a little practice.

The real difficulty in Dark Souls, the thing that separates Dark Souls from other games, is that it's very easy to die. Very easy. Just as pretty much all trash can be taken out quickly and easily if you know how, the trash also has the potential to take you out in short order too, if don't bother to work out how to prevent it. This means that when you're still learning a dungeon, meeting new types of enemies and bosses, it's pretty much an inevitability that you'll die. Not because you weren't quick enough on the trigger or failed to pull of that perfect combo you needed, but because you simply weren't prepared. This is the difficult part of the game, and it's also the part of the game that really shines. Once you've figured out how to kill an enemy or navigate your way through an area, that particular part of the game will be easy for you. You just have to figure it out.

I don't want an easy-mode in Dark Souls for the same reason i don't want Orwell or Huxley (if they were still alive) to paraphrase their books so a 12-year-old could read them. They'd just be gutting all the intricacy and depth out of their art and leaving it a hollow shell of what it once was, wasting time they could spend doing what they do well, that is, writing great novels, developing great games, using whatever tools they decide are necessary, be that complex vocabulary that makes it difficult to read for 12 year-olds, or difficulty that makes the game difficult to plow through on your first attempt without a moments thought.

Brave New World is great because of it's use of extremely clever and somewhat complicated (for want of a better word) vocabulary (amongst other reasons), Dark Souls is great because of it's use of difficulty (amongst other reasons). With the vocabulary of the average 12 year old, Brave New World would be nothing more than an average storybook, with a difficulty the average 12 year old could crack on their first run through without dying once, Dark Souls would be nothing more than an average RPG.

Not everything needs to be accessible for everyone.

Personally i'd be perfectly ok with an easy-mode, provided it comes in a completely separate game, is called something else and generally stays the fuck away from the game itself. If it comes as part of the Souls game itself, that means developers have had to account and balance the game itself for it to some extent, and that is the last thing i want.

 

[Windcaler]

sniped

well i don't want to be at you "level" i'm comfortable at my own. i don't really care about your accomplishments and what you been through to achieve them nor do i care for some sort of "steet cred" for making it to the end.
as i said before easy difficulty not equals easy win. If done right it provides interesting game play with greater margin for errors.

Its fine if you dont want to raise yourself up to be a better player and beat Dark souls. Thats your choice. I also never said you had to care about my accomplishments, I still care and thats all that really matters.

However I disagree with you on a fundemnetal level. From the early days of gaming easy modes have been in our games and they have always been the mode that anyone can complete. In 27 years of gaming I do not recall a single game where easy mode enhanced the gameplay for me but I do have to admit that is subjective at best. I think this is just a case where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

However Im still a bit confused. Why do you want to play dark souls if you already know the difficulty level is one that you're uncomfortable with?

 

[Arina Love]

sniped

well i don't want to be at you "level" i'm comfortable at my own. i don't really care about your accomplishments and what you been through to achieve them nor do i care for some sort of "steet cred" for making it to the end.
as i said before easy difficulty not equals easy win. If done right it provides interesting game play with greater margin for errors.

Its fine if you dont want to raise yourself up to be a better player and beat Dark souls. Thats your choice. I also never said you had to care about my accomplishments, I still care and thats all that really matters.

However I disagree with you on a fundemnetal level. From the early days of gaming easy modes have been in our games and they have always been the mode that anyone can complete. In 27 years of gaming I do not recall a single game where easy mode enhanced the gameplay for me but I do have to admit that is subjective at best. I think this is just a case where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

However Im still a bit confused. Why do you want to play dark souls if you already know the difficulty level is one that you're uncomfortable with?

I want to play it because i played it at my friend's for about 2 hours and it was good concept and i liked gameplay but i didn't like the difficulty. So if they gonna patch in easier mode i will buy it.
Same as Catherine i really liked concept but i was not buying it because how hard was Japanese version before patches were introduced. After patches i bought it and was able to enjoy it immensely.

 

[Windcaler]

sniped

well i don't want to be at you "level" i'm comfortable at my own. i don't really care about your accomplishments and what you been through to achieve them nor do i care for some sort of "steet cred" for making it to the end.
as i said before easy difficulty not equals easy win. If done right it provides interesting game play with greater margin for errors.

Its fine if you dont want to raise yourself up to be a better player and beat Dark souls. Thats your choice. I also never said you had to care about my accomplishments, I still care and thats all that really matters.

However I disagree with you on a fundemnetal level. From the early days of gaming easy modes have been in our games and they have always been the mode that anyone can complete. In 27 years of gaming I do not recall a single game where easy mode enhanced the gameplay for me but I do have to admit that is subjective at best. I think this is just a case where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

However Im still a bit confused. Why do you want to play dark souls if you already know the difficulty level is one that you're uncomfortable with?

I want to play it because i played it at my friend's for about 2 hours and it was good concept and i liked gameplay but i didn't like the difficulty. So if they gonna patch in easier mode i will buy it.
Same as Catherine i really liked concept but i was not buying it because how hard was Japanese version before patches were introduced. After patches i bought it and was able to enjoy it immensely.

Thats actually pretty common. A lot of people I know used to hate dark souls because it was so hard but most of them kept trying till they succeeded and now they love the game. I dont think easy mode is the answer for you, I think you just need to play it again and stick with it. Whether you do that or not is up to you though

 

[zinho73]

Just cause I can't solve the 4x4 rubik's cube and I can only solve the 3x3 doesn't mean I can't appreciate your ability.

Rubik's cube is actually a pretty good example that not everything needs an easy mode. There's no "easy" mode for Rubik's cube.

You play to your limit and with guides, patience and dedication you can surpass that limit.

If there were an easy version of the cube it would not have the popularity and longevity that it has now, i can guarantee you that. It became famous because it was a somewhat complex and different thing unlike other toys in the market.

As you said, to beat the cube is something that it is easily seen in any culture and in any place as a matter of some skill. Also, there would be no point in playing with the thing if anyone could solve it in five minutes - the time and money of the toy industry would be much better spent building other toys for a broader audience.

The point of the cube is to solve the puzzle;
The point of Dark Souls is to beat the difficulty (with such a variety of tools that sometimes it is simply not difficult at all).

cheesy metaphors aside I think its worth pointing out that there is a significant number of players who play on easy mode only, and what I'm saying is--yes it would make the community bigger because the majority of gamers these days are casuals...

you do realize there is some crazy statistic where like..for any given game only 5% complete the thing...

I agree. I'm one of them, always go for easy - although I must confess that after playing Dark Souls I'm feeling more adventurous and trying games on higher difficult settings.

But the problem is that Dark Souls is a different game in which to enjoy you must have an specific mindset, an easy or hard mode has nothing to do with it. To me asking for an easy mode for dark Souls sounds like someone asking for a mode in Diablo in which you get no loot. You are just removing one of the core concepts of the game which is integrate its difficulty with ingame elements and not confine easy or hard to a button.

And I obviously don't have the numbers, but I would risk to say that Dark Souls has a much higher level of completion. Once again, I don't finish most of my games (I actually dropped kingdoms of Amalur because I found it too safe, too by the numbers and boring), but I'm on my fourth complete run through Dark Souls.

What is important to understand is that we are talking about a game that it is everything but standard, you can't apply the same tired notions to everything in the market. If no game pushes the limits of our zone of comfort we will be actually promoting the lack of creativity and boldness.

 

[zinho73]

Easy mode will not hurt anybody, you will still have same hard experience but there will be expanded appeal of a game.

I guess we should really put things in perspective here. Nobody is getting hurt. If the game gets an easy mode or if the game continues to be as it is, life goes on.

You want the developer to put time and effort developing a mode for you. And believe me, a close to worthwhile easy mode to Dark Souls would require time and effort. That's selfish.

I want from soft to focus all their guns in improving what they already have. That's also selfish.

So we are tied here. Now let's see if you can come up with the other ten or so arguments that are also against an easy mode so we can match the discussion again.

As a matter a fact, forget that, let´s suppose that we remain tied in arguments, I would still stay on the side of the "no easy mode", simply because there's already a plethora of easy games on the market and just one Souls series. I will have to stick with the innovative, bold and uncompromising artistic view of Dark Souls.

Dark Souls being successful as it is is good for gaming in general. It might not be your cup of tea, but it proves that a game can be successful without having to complete the marketing check boxes.

 

[zinho73]

Time for a recap!

Most people that favor an easy mode have the following arguments:
1. I don't like elitists gamers. I want an easy mode to aggravate them;
2. It won't change the game experience for people that want it tough;
3. It will expand the appeal of the game.

My take on the issues:
1. This is actually quite an honest reaction. Also, very personal. I have nothing to add here but I would like to remind that not everyone that plays the game is a snob elitist gamer.

2. This is a little maybe. Multiplayer would have to be separated and unless From changes the dynamics of the gameplay a little this could go backwards, with a lot of people simply hating the game, simply because there won't be a reason to do a lot of stuff in the game (secrets that are there to make the game easier). It will also divert resources and the end result as a whole could suffer.

3. It will broader the appeal of the game... Well, I don't know. If something go wrong and things can easily go wrong when you are out of your element (see Dark Souls PC port), From risks not gaining new fans AND losing the ones they already have. Specially because I think there is a twisted expectation of what this "easy mode " would be, because people defending the easy mode are actually just wanting to go through the content faster, since the game already provides numerous "easy routes".

Let me be pretty blunt here: there are not many things that are as easy as to defeat the gargoyles with two NPCs and an upgraded sword covered with resin.

Or summon a certain knight and a certain which and seat while they kill the bosses for you. Nothing is more easy than doing nothing.

Yes, some very few boss fights might be tricky, but by the time you get there you are already hopeless hooked.

I find all this discussion actually surreal because Dark Souls is simply not that difficult. I'm on easy mode on the new Tekken game and I cannot clear Arcade mode - that's how bad ass gamer I am.