Unexpected homosexualty in plot.

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Iron Lightning

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Oct 19, 2009
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ZombieGenesis said:
[Original post omitted for length]
I personally see no issue with making him gay. In fact, it would be a nice little plot twist IMHO.

Although keep in mind that, if this is a serious work, the critics might misconstrue your story to be about some trite social issues. Of course the upside of this is that it will probably lead to you work being more critically acclaimed.

So yes, make him gay, but only as long as it doesn't mess up your artistic intentions.
 

Nico III

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Apr 16, 2008
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Why not leave it open? Suggest that he could swing either way, and let your audience decide for themselves?
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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ZombieGenesis said:
For that matter, has fictional media entered a point where this kind of matter can be touched on casually without major justification to the readership?
Well, let's put it this way: Real people rarely need a "major justificatioN" for being straight or gay, so why should fictional characters have to have one?
 

Last Bullet

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Well, from your explanation of the two characters, I'd say go for it. It's not just for the hell of having a gay character, and it explains an otherwise potentially confusing bond. The only "backlash" I can think of is the idiotic "He's gay and a bad guy, the author is trying to say something!" But... screw those people.
 

RebelRising

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Dragons In Space said:
I don't think you should make him noticeably gay for no particular reason, but that doesn't mean there should be no gay characters. Make him just so happen to be gay, but don't portray it as part of his villainous schemes. Have a scene where he's talking with his husband or boyfriend or slave-boy or whoever and it reveals it casually and it doesn't have much to do with his plots.
Go with this. In short, make it matter to him, as a character, but not to the larger plot and story. At the very least, I'm sure it would make him even more interesting.

On a related note, am I the only one who has noticed that Rowling was only brave enough to out Dumbledore after the last book in her series sold untold millions?
 

2fish

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Easy Street said:
2fish said:
In the Nightrunner series some of the characters are bi-sexual or gay, they just build up to that point aka no hot sex parties but a real relationship is formed after you get to know the characters. As long as you don't focus on or make a big deal about their sexual choices it shouldn't be a problem.
Being gay or bi isn't a choice. Did you choose to be heterosexual?

To the OP: As long as you aren't making it random and trying to pull something silly out of the ether, do whatever you want.
I suppose I should be happy that?s all the anger I have gotten so far. I am sorry you thought I mean as in choosing to be gay, I was talking about sex in general. I hate it when there are random sexual situations with no rhyme or reason in any book. Story, plot, story, random sex scene, story, plot... it just turns me off. I have quit books for that offense. So work the sex in and make it a part of the story not DLC (maybe character development?).

I sense an underlying anger, and I doubt I am the full reason for it. If you want to chat let me know I will actually look up my Skype password again if you want to talk.
 

dracowar

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I liked China Mieville's Judah character in the Iron Train, but he made it clear quite quickly that the character is gay and it affected the storyline in the same way any heterosexual relationships would have done. Presented with nonchalance and then used in the plot as something utterly normal, your bad guy's gayness could fit right into the story.

On the other hand, if the readers don't know he's gay from the start, they will probably already have placed the "bad guy" in one of the "bad guy" stereotypes. This will make them have certain expectations of the character throughout the story. And i don't think too many people would have "gay" as part of the stereotypes associated with the "bad guy". See where i'm going with this ... ?
Like everyone was a little ... uncomfortable with Dumbledore being gay. It's ok .... but i think a lot of people were asking themselves "couldn't you have left this one bit of information out , Mrs Rowling ?" It's ok to be gay, it's stupid to dump after the last book is out.After writing 7 damned books in which you failed to mention this in the slightest.You just made a legion of fans go back and say "aaah, so that's why Dumbledore did this or that" lying to themselves that anything in the 7 books even hinted to gayness. But suddenly the internet is full of people claiming they said he was gay after the second book, other after the first, some claiming to have known he was gay after reading the first chapter and have their personal journals as proof. But the more likely story is one of image, 17-18 yo average Susan and John's image of the gay community as a whole to be more precise. The kids who grew up reading Harry Potter are now in their late teens, and even if this doesn't look like much, as a social psychologist i can tell you this small announcement alone has made gay totally ok in the minds of many, many forming adults. Not make them want to be gay or even curious about life up the other end, it only made them truly understand that gay people are just that PEOPLE. It's a lesson no school will ever be able to teach to a kid that hears even moderate homophobic jokes in the family.But Dumbledore being gay ... it's like your grand uncle Freddy was gay, the nice uncle that always brought you the best stuff and never bothered you.
And even if this was a calculated move, for the people that loved the novels, as novels, not life-guides, it was a forced smile of acceptance. You can't say you actually didn't like him being gay (not because you have a problem with gay school headmasters who might or might not have abused you when you were in secondary school) just because it didn't fit in with the Dumbledore in YOUR mind, not in Mrs Rowling's ;) But i guess that's like the biggest taboo in western culture next to saying women should travel strictly by bus so as to free up traffic, and can only vote in two elections : the one for class president when they are in school and and the one for neighborhood president as adults and they can't run for either so they wouldn't vote with their tiny, less evolved brains (a clear example of this being the shameful 2004 US Presidential Elections, when women voted 51% for John Kerry, but the 55% of every castrated, emasculated, MAN voted for genius to run the world, good ol' doub'ya,while four years back, the elections would have been a no-brainer on the winner, women having no less then 29% more votes for the candidate who could actually spell the word spell;in fact, digging a bit deeper into gender difference data on elections, which is scares to say the least, one can clearly see the last couple of decades free of war, teaaaa'r, economical crises of such magnitude or just simple retard-ness if the Americans would have just listened to their women; if one needs more convincing into this women + politics = everyone'sahappiercamper business just write angela merkel on google and read the wiki; note that Germany dealt with this economical crisis stuff quickly and painlessly, aiding the companies to make more jobs, so they can hire the people they let go from the administration, problem solved in less then a year;i'm sure even the obama choice was the wrong one taken, again by the men, i'm very sure hillary would have had a tone more balls in washigton and things would have looked a lot better for the entire world) or something like that, you know what i mean, right?
So basically my advice to you is to read The Iron Train again, carefully noting how Mieville uses the main character's gayness as just another part in the story's structure, and yet, it fits so naturally and perfect in the storyline you wouldn't have it any other way.
Note that "Miéville is a modern Marxist; for him gay people are commonly just another part of a popular front of misfits against the powers that be. He treats Judah and Cutter and every other gay character in the book matter-of-factly, if without true understanding of was being gay is like"

If you think you can really integrate the gayness into the story, do it man. It's a sure bet to get some extra books sold on amazon and a bit more coverage. I think many people suffer from some form of suppressed guilt for gay people and in response will do stuff which has anything to do with gay.Like 70yo's going to gay parades to show support or going to see Brokeback Mountain at the cinema so they can tell every water-cooler friend that they were impressed and touched, even if it bored the crap out of them.If it's a bit of latent homophobic guilt that gets you in the hands of a big critic and shoots you to stardom, then don't hesitate to ride that train ;)

Done a bit of reading for ya, so i hope this helps,
Cheers from Romania

p.s. i blame the damned weed for any incoherences or plain dumb things and credit myself for anything attention-worthy in the stuff above. please note that i have gone from discussing epic psychosocial chances what will probably affect the western world in unknown, but likely positive ways, done with a simple announcement, to the small bit of trivia that should women would have been the only ones with the right to vote , to pointing out queerguilt - which is better just cuz is sounds more British .
das ende
 

Gralian

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Sep 24, 2008
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What genre is it? Romance? Thriller? Does it have to have any relationship or sexual content at all?

If the book itself doesn't really contain or focus on romantic or interpersonal relationships, i don't see why the decision to include homosexuality or not should matter. It's just another example of Bi The Way. Alternatively you could go the whole Metal Gear Solid 3 route and have the bad guy have some sort of... relationship with the (male?) love interest, but not make it explicitly about romance or sex. Snake's relationship with The Boss was an extremely complicated one but it was often explained that it was something beyond romantic love, or motherly love, or friend love. It was the soulmate kind of love you just can't really explain. Snake and The Boss had some sort of connection that was on a level deeper than any two people could possibly get, so much so that although EVE understood it she couldn't explain it. You could develop a sort of confused same-sex relationship in a similar fashion without having to include any form of sex or romantic affection being shown at all, but instead leave it all implied and expressed in the way the characters react and respond to each other in varying situations.
 

ReincarnatedFTP

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Jun 13, 2009
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No.
Just repeatedly and subtly hint at it, and then never say a word on the subject. Make it seem like a plot idea that you just abandoned halfway.

Or if it seems too contrived and doesn't serve the plot, use it full force for dark comic relief. Maybe the good guy walks in on a gay sex scene and is so horrified he blacks out and gets captured or the bad guy goes to the length of brutally torturing and assassinating several intelligence agents for possessing evidence of his hidden homosexuality while he lets someone with more important intelligence get away.

But try not to make a complete mockery of the character and center it on his homosexuality as if he were kitschiest, loudest guy to live in the Castro area.
 

dracowar

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Jul 7, 2006
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Bottom line after spending two hours reading all kinds of crap for that monster of a post i just realized i wrote : DON'T
Don't use it unexpectedly. People like their gay characters gay from the start, ok ? When you sneak a gay character past them for half the book, i don't think your readers will be very pleased with your choice. to put it mildly, it's to late/early to be more frank than that, but i do hope you get the picture :)

1. Have a gay villain ! - Brings extra $ and extra attention from the critics. Art critics tend to be gay (non discriminatory remark, actual statistics showing a 8-12% gay and 18-30% bisexual in all art critics in the USA and Canada in 2007-2008 study compared to aprox 8% gay and bisexual people in the general public)

2. Have some kind of gay romantic distress - I would strongly recommend having a couple of actual gay people, better if withing the social and age group of your characters, explain to you how they would feel and act in the situations you are proposing in the book in which the gay part counts. Read a bit of gay erotica, not porn!! - hey, it takes true perseverance to succeed.

3. Treat gay people the way your universe demands it !!! - Hey, if your fantasy world is one of elf Nazis and Fascist elms, be free to use all the language your KKK treehugging elves would, if they would be talking right here, right now. Don't sugarcoat it either way. When it comes to matters of gayly-ness people like it as it is. Sugarcoating the homophobic language to make it more politically correct will get you bad points with the readers, as fantasy novel readers are not your average brainwashed cnn/fox zombies, they are smart people, who do not like their intelligence insulted, even in the slightest,most politically correct way. On the other hand, if your society is more ancient-orientated(and by ancient i mean classical Rome or Greece) when it comes to vices and such,then matters of gay love should be a normal topic of conversation and should not be even regarded as being special at all for the characters. In the end, the world you chose should be able to tell you if a gay character fits the slot :)
 

StBishop

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PureIrony said:
Shock and Awe said:
Dumbledore was homosexual? When the fuck did that happen? I read all the books and never got that!

OT: If it makes sense do it, unlike with Dumbledore, that was just random.
It was supposed be subtle, and tie in with the whole "didn't try to stop Grindelwald at first" thing.

That aside, 1)make sure the villain has plenty of character traits besides homosexuality and 2)make the gay factor either kind of irrelevant, or(this is riskier but vastly more interesting) make him/her so sexually disgusting/depraved that the homosexuality is the least unusual thing about their sexuality.
I'm sorry but if one of my mates did something bad I'd let them have a head start on their life of being a fugitive. I don't need to have any sexual or romantic feelings for them.

But I also understand that you may be speculating and if you have a source you probably only listed some of the reasons that Rowling gave.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Dumbledore being Homosexual, but I thought that it would have hit Slughorn better.

Dumbledore seemed like the asexual/celebate married to his work kind.
 

Kurokami

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Feb 23, 2009
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Shock and Awe said:
Dumbledore was homosexual? When the fuck did that happen? I read all the books and never got that!

OT: If it makes sense do it, unlike with Dumbledore, that was just random.
She either just decided it to... Pretend the books had some meaning. Or simply as a joke, not sure which. (Like you, I only heard of it)
 

RadiusXd

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Shock and Awe said:
Dumbledore was homosexual? When the fuck did that happen? I read all the books and never got that!

OT: If it makes sense do it, unlike with Dumbledore, that was just random.
just because she is the author doesn't mean she can say what she wants!
if its not in the book then you can take what you want from it, and i never even considered dumby being gay!....

although, he did get harry alone often enough.
 

Ironic Pirate

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May 21, 2009
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Don't have him be a stereotype or anything. Give it away when he, say, kisses his second in command, or something.

But try to also have a good gay guy as well, so that it doesn't sound like you're saying gay guys are evil.