Unexpected News: The Wachowski Sisters! Second Wachowski Sibling Comes Out As Trans.

[Lightknight]

Being trans is not a temporary problem. You can be thrown in jail for being trans in about half of the world. Here in the United States at least a quarter of the population doesn't think it should be legal to be trans. These assholes will not go away in any of our lifetimes and will continue to make life hell for anybody trans during this time.

Trans panic is still a legal defense in 49 US states.

Trans panic? That's weird as hell. It sounds like the defense would be like :"There I was on a bus when some dude in a dress walked in so I just started panicking and punching". Is it still a successful defense in any modern cases?

Police are less likely to investigate the deaths of trans people or violence against trans people, assuming we even feel comfortable enough going to the police in the first place.

I have always been interested about this statistic. I would be fascinated to know if this is more a correlation with transgendered people being far more likely to be living on the streets and all that entails or if even accounting for the increase in homelessness and potentially criminal lifestyles if there is still a bias against pursuing murder investigations remaining.

Not that transgendered people are more likely to be bad people by any means. They are just far more likely to have their support systems taken from them and have to make ends meet in other ways. They are also far more likely to be abused which itself carries with it a markedly higher prevalence of crime and drug use that is the same with non-trans people who were also abused.

If that's the case, I don't know who that would help but it would be nice to know the world isn't quite as anti-trans as we generally think.

 

[MrFalconfly]

snip

Well, it's good to see your point of view.

I can only say that I disagree on who's at fault. Also I don't appreciate having my point reduced to a strawman ("Being trans is not a temporary problem. You can be thrown in jail for being trans in about half of the world."). I never said "being trans is a temporary problem". I never said anything along those lines either. I said emotional problems (I feel sad, I feel attacked, I feel ...) are temporary.

Have a nice day.

 

[Something Amyss]

No, I won't. People who commit suicide aren't suffering anymore. Their families are and always will.

Assuming they even give a fuck.

Several of my friends have had their families try and injure or kill them.

And telling people to consider such people might very well do more harm than good.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Being trans is not a temporary problem. You can be thrown in jail for being trans in about half of the world. Here in the United States at least a quarter of the population doesn't think it should be legal to be trans. These assholes will not go away in any of our lifetimes and will continue to make life hell for anybody trans during this time.

Trans panic is still a legal defense in 49 US states.

Trans panic? That's weird as hell. It sounds like the defense would be like :"There I was on a bus when some dude in a dress walked in so I just started panicking and punching". Is it still a successful defense in any modern cases?

Yes, especially in reducing sentences. The defense is basically "the person was so freaked out by the trans person that they were not in their right mind." It most commonly ends up with unprovoked assault being turned into aggravated assault, or homicide reduced to manslaughter, that sort of thing. It is sometimes successful, sometimes not. We typically only ever hear about homicides involving the defense, but it was deployed in a homicide case as recently as last December, when a marine who had brought a trans woman to a motel room choked and beat the woman into unconsciousness and then shoved her face in a toilet until she drowned. His defense revolved around the idea that he was defending his honor.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

He has a point though.

We're talking about people who's in a mental state where they're considering permanent (that is irreversible) solutions for temporary problems (problems which some times can be solved by having a chat with a friend).

Being trans is not a temporary problem. You can be thrown in jail for being trans in about half of the world. Here in the United States at least a quarter of the population doesn't think it should be legal to be trans. These assholes will not go away in any of our lifetimes and will continue to make life hell for anybody trans during this time.

But I admit that I generally look down at people who commit suicide, because generally it's a selfish act, and as previously mentioned, it's an irreversible pseudo-solution to a temporary problem.

Lets stop pretending that suicide doesn't stop the problem. If you're not around anymore your misery won't continue. Suicide works. Its short-sighted for anybody who isn't suffering a terminal condition in which their death is painful and inevitible but it still does its job. It ends the misery.

As for being selfish, well, we need to be selfish to survive life and sometimes we've earned that selfishness. Like I mentioned before, I don't necessarily see the friends and family of those who commit suicide as victims. Sometimes they're the reason for the suicide and sometimes they deserve that pain, they've earned it by their own actions. Selfish actions, I should add. It isn't selflessness from friends and family that upsets people to the brink of suicide. Maybe their family wanted the suicidal person in the closet because the person being out would be inconvenient to them and they value their convenience more than the person's happiness. Maybe they simply ignored the suicidal person when they were visibly upset in favour of continuing to watch their TV show or finish their phone call, which can apply to practically anybody. Selfishness from people around them tends to be what drives LGBTQ people to the brink of suicide. When people mourn over the suicide of an LGBTQ person in their life they're usually thinking of and/or feeling how the suicide hurt them personally, not how miserable the suicidal person must have been for months, years, even decades to get to that point and how they personally contributed to that.

In my experience however, people who commit suicide forget about their friends (that is, their true friends, not the pricks who make their life hell and are mislabelled friends).

Some of us don't have real friends or family. I certainly didn't for a stretch that lasted years. There are people who think they're real friends and family to us but really aren't. Tons of times I see people who think they're friends of the person and that they did the right think but they never exercised basic empathy. People don't see how it is from the perspective of the suicidal person. They don't think about how their suicidal "friend" or "family" saw them in those suicidal moments. If they're disregarding the feelings of their alleged friends and family its probably because those friends and family are part of the problem in the first place. I've seen a lot of my friends attempt or even complete suicide over the years and every time the friends and family who mistreated them always go "I don't understand why they did this. Why couldn't come to me?" and every time I respond bluntly "because you're the problem, because you were too busy thinking about how they effected you to think about how you effected them." Maybe once in a blue moon one of them wises up to the fact that they're what drove them to that point in the first place. Thats rare, though. People are constantly thinking about how they feel because of the suicide or suicide attempt rather than how the suicidal person felt. Its a dearth of empathy, a bastion of selfishness.

Innocent people who would've like nothing more than to help them, being left feeling "why didn't I see this? Why didn't I stop this? I'm at fault, it's my fault that they're dead".

And it is their fault. Partially, anyways. I don't hold them against them as long as they weren't needlessly selfish or callous towards the suicidal party. You have to be selfish in life, you have to worry about yourself, you cannot throw yourself on the spear for everybody. Thats okay. I don't blame people or get angry at them for being reasonably selfish. I get upset at them for viewing themselves as the victims. They're not. The victim is the person laying on a slab in the morgue. They don't get to be selfish about the suicide, they don't get to say "this hurts me" when the suicide was the result of their collective prior selfishness.

That's a gross oversimplification. What about people with paranoid schizophrenia hearing voices in their head and suspecting the world is made of robots plotting against them? Did that person just happen to run into a group of evil scheming robots or are they sick? Having emotional responses to what happens in your life is normal and acceptable. Murder is not.

No, its not an oversimplification. Nobody chooses to be suicidal, to be in a state of mind where suicide seems to be the best option. Murder is a choice, a selfish choice made avoid or less emotional or physical pain. Murder is an act which victimizes another person. Suicide is a method of coping with one's own personal victimization. You have to be victimized to be at the point that you're suicidal.

I don't think saying that someone who is rationalizing suicide is mentally ill is a particularly controversial stance.

Great, now tell that to my relative who is dying due to incredibly painful and terminal bone cancer as we speak. Go tell her she's mentally ill for not overcoming her suffering and not wanting to ease her pain and that she should go onto her last, incredibly painful breath.

I'm pretty sure modern medicine and the law is clear about that as well.

Not necessarily. Suicide is becoming legalized under certain circumstances. Even if they're not they still can't do more than hold you for a few days. If your pain is unrelenting that hold period won't change anything.

There's no "well maybe that the only way out for him/her."

Sometimes it is the only way out.

There was a young girl in Central America who was held for almost thirty years as a sex slave. She had, IIRC, over a dozen pregnancies and was raped daily, usually by more than one person. She underwent this for almost as old as you are now. If she was given the choice at any point during that time to end her own life to ease her suffering would you really deny her that relief from almost three decades of unrelenting agony, physical and emotional, because she has a little bit of whatever life she could scrounge for her left at the end of it?

Believe me, I want to be on your side on this issue (and trans people in general) as I'm pretty socially liberal on most things. I just want that one piece of the conversation on trans or gay people to not be given as much credence. And if it is a part of the conversation, then it be treated more seriously and not act as though it's always "everyone else's" fault that it happens or that's a logical move for a discriminated trans person to make.

You want to be on our side but you're not and it would help to listen to be people who know and deal with this specific brand of suicidal feelings rather than insisting that the solution another brand applies equally here. People on our side don't say "your feelings are invalid" like you're doing now. They don't say "think of how much suicide woudl upset all the people your life" like you did previously. Thats not how people in the community try to address suicidal feelings. Do you know how LGBTQ folks try to address suicidal feelings among the community? Its simple really.It Gets Better. [http://www.itgetsbetter.org/] It isn't "It Gets Perfect". It isn't "It Gets Better Immediately". It isn't "Assholes Stop Trying To Ruin Your Life". Is it enough for everybody? No, sadly its not. Some people are simply too far gone to help. For the rest though, its helpful. It isn't condescending to anybody for feeling that way. It doesn't shame them for feeling that way. It doesn't tell them that things really aren't that bad. It acknowledges the truth that things are terrible and that they have every right to feel that way because the people saying it have been at that point in their life. Because the program is honest and empathetic it actually succeeds in saving lives because it understands the pain of the people who are suicidal and shares that pain along with hope for the future by being an example that the message is true. It shows that there is light at the end of the tunnel rather than simplying insisting that there is while saying a bunch of others things that only makes them feel worse.

I mentioned terminal illness in a previous post, but I guess you didn't see it. At least consider that suicide is a really really bad idea in 99.99999% of cases and if a person is thinking it's a good idea, then that person is most likely wrong. I know it's hard to admit when you're wrong. I spent years repeating "I want to die, I want to die, I want to die" like a mantra. Every day was abject misery. I thought of all sort of ways to get out of it. Now I have a sense of survivor's guilt, like I got away with something and I don't deserve the life I have now. Every moment seems so precious now. I was simply wrong and I could have missed all of this. I've known a few people who killed themselves over the years and I think they were wrong, too. I may overstepping my bounds to say that suicidal trans people might also be wrong about that, but I still feel that way.

 

[Lightknight]

Being trans is not a temporary problem. You can be thrown in jail for being trans in about half of the world. Here in the United States at least a quarter of the population doesn't think it should be legal to be trans. These assholes will not go away in any of our lifetimes and will continue to make life hell for anybody trans during this time.

Trans panic is still a legal defense in 49 US states.

Trans panic? That's weird as hell. It sounds like the defense would be like :"There I was on a bus when some dude in a dress walked in so I just started panicking and punching". Is it still a successful defense in any modern cases?

Yes, especially in reducing sentences. The defense is basically "the person was so freaked out by the trans person that they were not in their right mind." It most commonly ends up with unprovoked assault being turned into aggravated assault, or homicide reduced to manslaughter, that sort of thing. It is sometimes successful, sometimes not. We typically only ever hear about homicides involving the defense, but it was deployed in a homicide case as recently as last December, when a marine who had brought a trans woman to a motel room choked and beat the woman into unconsciousness and then shoved her face in a toilet until she drowned. His defense revolved around the idea that he was defending his honor.

That's horrifying. Thanks for the information.

I suppose this is most commonly used as a crime of passion then where a person felt misled by an individual they were engaging in intimate relations with?

Can't really see how it could be used as an argument for curb stomping a random passerby but society hasn't really been impressing me lately...

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Being trans is not a temporary problem. You can be thrown in jail for being trans in about half of the world. Here in the United States at least a quarter of the population doesn't think it should be legal to be trans. These assholes will not go away in any of our lifetimes and will continue to make life hell for anybody trans during this time.

Trans panic is still a legal defense in 49 US states.

Trans panic? That's weird as hell. It sounds like the defense would be like :"There I was on a bus when some dude in a dress walked in so I just started panicking and punching". Is it still a successful defense in any modern cases?

Yes, especially in reducing sentences. The defense is basically "the person was so freaked out by the trans person that they were not in their right mind." It most commonly ends up with unprovoked assault being turned into aggravated assault, or homicide reduced to manslaughter, that sort of thing. It is sometimes successful, sometimes not. We typically only ever hear about homicides involving the defense, but it was deployed in a homicide case as recently as last December, when a marine who had brought a trans woman to a motel room choked and beat the woman into unconsciousness and then shoved her face in a toilet until she drowned. His defense revolved around the idea that he was defending his honor.

That's horrifying. Thanks for the information.

I suppose this is most commonly used as a crime of passion then where a person felt misled by an individual they were engaging in intimate relations with?

Can't really see how it could be used as an argument for curb stomping a random passerby but society hasn't really been impressing me lately...

We most commonly hear about it in the case of intimate relationships, yes, but it happens elsewhere too. A variation (gay panic) was used quit a few years ago (95 I think?) where someone discovered that their coworker was gay and that they thought he was attractive. The man murdered his gay coworker, stating that he was driven to it because the thought of his coworker being attracted to him was so humiliating and distressing that he could not control himself. In this particular case the defense failed. But not because gay panic is a ridiculous reason to kill someone but because since the defendant waited more than 3 days to murder his coworker that indicated that it wasn't a panic motivated crime.

Another thing is that trans people often don't report hate crimes against them for fear of further victimization. A while back, I think 3 months or so ago, there was a thread in which we were discussing hate crime statistics and especially the problem of low reporting. If a trans person reports a hate crime in the United States they are about as likely to be subject to further abuse by police than to have the crime actually checked out. I think the statistic was about 50% of people who reported a crime reported a negative experience, with about 75% of bad cases involving things along the lines of verbal harassment and physical intimidation designed to make the trans person drop reporting the crime, and the remaining 25% are much worse. Things like sexual or physical violence, wrongful arrests, that sort of thing.

And even if the police are cooperative it doesn't mean anything is going to get worked out. So many trans people just wont report being attacked. I probably wouldn't. Unless there is a body these things rarely go to trial.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

If words still have a meaning they are still brothers - no human being can change their gender regardless of their inclination or the way they dress or behave.

The concept here is that they are not changing their gender but rather were born as a gender that did not match their physical sex. Any work they do on their outer appearance is then to just come more in line with their internal gender. Can they turn their X into a Y or their Y into an X? No, but that's not the point. The point is to look in the mirror and not feel like you're in the wrong body.

We have all kinds of disorders and strange medical conditions in the world, is it so strange to imagine that there could be a condition like that? Hell, we have a condition where you get born with the genitalia of both sexes.

As for the linguistic argument of gendered nouns having meaning, it was only somewhat recently that we've begun to distinguish between the male gender (internal) and the male sex (external). Language is just catching up. If it helps you any, they are called gendered pronouns and not sex pronouns which now does mean reference to one's gender identity.

That would be true if you could find something measurable in the body or brain that objectively define your definition of gender - I might be wrong but I don't think such a thing exists, as behavior/sexual preferences cover such a wide range that any attempt of classification would be largely subjective. Facebook's ridiculous Gender Multilist is a prime example of this.

Lots of neuorological studies have found that transgender tend women have similar brain structires to cisgender women, visa-versa for trans men. Also there is digit length where a trans person tends to have the same ratio of finger length between the ring and index finger as the gender they identify as. Then there's presentation, since you don't see the genitals of everyone you meet you can't know what they're packing, you also generally don't have access to the information gender they were assigned at birth, nor do most people know their genetic states. Also transgenderism has basically has nothing to do sexuality, and just as little to do with behavior out side gender presentation.

Finally Facebook only has 3 gender options, "Male", "Female", and "Custom" the last one doesn't even exclude the first two, it just allows you to have more specific gender information. That's not ridiculous by any stretch. Especially considering Facebook isn't any official governmental service. What is being is inclusive, something you should think of being, because right now you're not being inclusive.

I will keep using gender-based (that is, sex-based) pronouns because I'd rather use wording that describes an objective situation over one that is based on subjective and ailing choices.

Except you don't have access to most people's genitals, birth record, or genetics to make that distinction. You're not being objective here, you're not addressing an objective situation either, because again most people aren't going to let you check their genitals, birth record, and genetics just so you can gender them. What you're doing is taking private information as a means to disrespect someone and reject their identity. Which when you do that, refusing to use the preferred gender pronouns with a trans person, that's called being transphobic. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about that, it's behavior that means one is being transphobic and it's being a jerk.

For example if we met in person at an event for The Escapist, but you didn't know which forum name I used, you'd gender me as female, in spite of my being trans. If I told you my forum name, or that I'm trans and then you started misgendering me, you'd be doing a number of horrible and selfish things: 1) You'd be outing me against my will to people I hadn't told yet. 2) You'd be putting me in physical danger, because some people react violently to finding out someone is trans. 3) You'd be personally disrespecting me. 4) You'd be personally disrespecting all trans folk, especially those in ear shot. 5) You'd cause a lot of confusion doing such a thing. 6) You'd be doing something that personally hurts and if you continued to do it intentionally I might file a complaint with security of the venue, because you're the one making an issue. 7) You'd make it difficult for me to use facilities at the event, by calling my gender into question, when no one would have noticed in the first place. 8) Everyone who wasn't clinging to a biological essentialist view point would see you as a jerk for doing such a thing.

More over don't use language insinuating that trans people are sick for making the choice to transition. Transition, especially hormone replacement therapy(HRT), actually improves a trans person's physical and mental health, along with improving quality of life, like by reducing stress, depression and anxiety. HRT is especially potent in this regard, because it can literally stop chronic anxiety and chronic depression in a trans person. Meaning that trans people going on the correct hormones fixes a hormonal imbalance in their brains that cause chronic depression and chronic anxiety. Also a lot of trans people I know had joint issues before they went on HRT, but when they got on HRT those joint issues went away. That means that not transitioning when one needs it is the ailing choice, not the other way around.

Of course he can dress as he want and even change his name - I just hope he won't choose to reach the point of mutilating himself simply because he dislikes the body he was born with.

Mutilating? Are you talking about Sexual Reassignment Surgery?[footnote]Also known as SRS, Gender Reassignment Surgery, GRS, Gender Confirmation Surgery, Cross-Gender Genital Reconstructive Surgery, and etc...[/footnote] Tell me do you call it mutilation when someone gets piercings, or tattoos? Do you call it mutilation when someone has failing teeth removed and gets dental implants, bridges, or dentures? Do you call it mutilation when someone gets a cancerous growth, organ, or body part removed? If someone needs surgery to correct their genitals and they aren't trans, would you call that mutilation? I bet not. So how come a medically necessary genital corrective surgery is mutilation when someone happens to be trans?

If Lilly Wachowski decides she needs to correct her genitals with surgery, then she'll do so under the advice of her doctors. She won't be getting mutilated, she'll be having a birth defect corrected. You misgendering her and calling her medical needs mutilation only shows one thing: You're amongst the people who know virtually nothing about transgender people, yet still think they're qualified to moral and medical judgments against us. That is the place where transphobia develops, people being ignorant, then using their own ignorance to make judgments about a situation they don't understand. I'm not saying you're an abject transphobe, or a horrible person, because I don't believe that's true, but you are kind of buying into transphobic arguments. I'd suggest doing three things: The first is easier, look at how you're being judgmental about people's situations which don't understand, then tell your self to stop being judgmental. Second, get educated, go around and look at real scientific sources on transgenderism, so you can start to understand. Also avoid anything like the Family Research Council, they're not scientific, they're using pseudo-science to back up bigoted biases. Third, listen to trans folk when we tell you something, we're the ones with the conditions, we're the ones science and the law tends to favor, that means when we're in conflict with you on an issue, we're almost always the ones who are correct.

If words still have a meaning they are still brothers - no human being can change their gender regardless of their inclination or the way they dress or behave.

Also don't use the linguistic argument to support transphobic ideas.

What..?

The linguistic argument "well if words still mean what they mean" is an argument used by people who default to a strict dictionary definition to back up personal bigotries and biases. Some examples of people like this are Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists(TERFs), people who believe the Earth is Flat, Young Earth Christians, and so on. People who reject science, and they do it so that they can violate the rights of other people, just because those people are different from them. Transphobia, Homophobia, Sexism, Racism, those all try to use incorrect and proven wrong pseudo-science in the place of real science, so that the people who hold those views can oppress others for being different than them. Misusing dictionary definitions is also an example of this sort of "logic". Because the strict dictionary definition as the only correct view, as with the biological essentialist view "people can't change their gender" is flat wrong, it's based on disproved ideas... It's a rejection of science. All it is is a cover that's the same thing as saying: "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic, but..." Line. It's someone trying not to sound bigoted when they're being a bigot, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Something Amyss]

And even if the police are cooperative it doesn't mean anything is going to get worked out. So many trans people just wont report being attacked. I probably wouldn't.

I haven't. In fact, I ended up surprising one of my close friends recently when he stumbled on some of my posts. He had no idea.

Unless there is a body these things rarely go to trial.

Even then, not necessarily. There have been a ton of stories where trans people have died and not been investigated. One need only look at the list of names rifled off on Trans Day of Remembrance. Hell, you can look at the "black trans lives matter" material, too. Last month reminded me that, for all the shit I have on my plate, being white is still a pretty solid privilege.

Finally Facebook only has 3 gender options, "Male", "Female", and "Custom" the last one doesn't even exclude the first two, it just allows you to have more specific gender information. That's not ridiculous by any stretch. Especially considering Facebook isn't any official governmental service. What is being is inclusive, something you should think of being, because right now you're not being inclusive.

This one's always been puzzling to me anyway. It's an additional option you don't have to use that doesn't affect you in any way, shape or form. And yet, you'd think that it was some massive rollout of gender enforcement that stigmatised anyone who didn't pick option 3.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

And even if the police are cooperative it doesn't mean anything is going to get worked out. So many trans people just wont report being attacked. I probably wouldn't. Unless there is a body these things rarely go to trial.

To expand on this I was harassed for years by a person, who eventually attempted to rape me, even after that event I couldn't get a restraining order on them, or a investigation of the attempted rape. I've never had a truly bad experience with the police either... But that failure on the law's part told me I'm not going to get help in those situations.

I mentioned terminal illness in a previous post, but I guess you didn't see it. At least consider that suicide is a really really bad idea in 99.99999% of cases and if a person is thinking it's a good idea, then that person is most likely wrong. I know it's hard to admit when you're wrong. I spent years repeating "I want to die, I want to die, I want to die" like a mantra. Every day was abject misery. I thought of all sort of ways to get out of it. Now I have a sense of survivor's guilt, like I got away with something and I don't deserve the life I have now. Every moment seems so precious now. I was simply wrong and I could have missed all of this. I've known a few people who killed themselves over the years and I think they were wrong, too. I may overstepping my bounds to say that suicidal trans people might also be wrong about that, but I still feel that way.

Well to put it simply, it's not about it being the "correct" answer, it's about the situation that causes the feelings. When you're denied your true self by your friends and family, when you have no options, ability, or tools to seek the help you need. The picture starts to look pretty bleak. Then a lot of families will have their trans children shipped off to conversion "therapy" camps, where said offspring gets abused and demoralized for not being "normal". Generally by saying said children, even if they're adults at that point, are an abomination against god and the like. Mix that with families who just throw their trans relatives out, disown them, homelessness and poverty numbers in the trans community... Just so many factors that can make a person feel isolated, hated, and out of options.

I'm not saying they're in the right if they commit suicide, but I don't blame them for their actions either. It's a foolish, shortsighted, and ultimately wrong choice to make, but it's still the choice many do make. Rather than focus on the person who was driven to such an extreme reaction, I'm of the mind that we have to address the issues that lead to the reaction. We're not helping at all by condemning those who committed suicide, who are currently looking at it as an option. What would help is making available resources and protections for trans folk who are currently being driven to extreme measures.

Finally Facebook only has 3 gender options, "Male", "Female", and "Custom" the last one doesn't even exclude the first two, it just allows you to have more specific gender information. That's not ridiculous by any stretch. Especially considering Facebook isn't any official governmental service. What is being is inclusive, something you should think of being, because right now you're not being inclusive.

This one's always been puzzling to me anyway. It's an additional option you don't have to use that doesn't affect you in any way, shape or form. And yet, you'd think that it was some massive rollout of gender enforcement that stigmatised anyone who didn't pick option 3.

That's because a lot of people have this paranoia that being cisgender is somehow a bad thing... When it's not. A lot of them are so paranoid that they actually think cisgender gender identities could be banned by law, especially cisgender male identities, just because of trans activism...

A funny side note. I once changed my gender to "Nachos" because I was messing around with my FB profile when I was sick of the gender binary and hungry at the same time.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

And even if the police are cooperative it doesn't mean anything is going to get worked out. So many trans people just wont report being attacked. I probably wouldn't. Unless there is a body these things rarely go to trial.

To expand on this I was harassed for years by a person, who eventually attempted to rape me, even after that event I couldn't get a restraining order on them, or a investigation of the attempted rape. I've never had a truly bad experience with the police either... But that failure on the law's part told me I'm not going to get help in those situations.

A martial art that emphasizes simple, often improvised weaponry is a good place to start, like Escrima. Sure, you won't learn how to use a sword or a spear, or kick three pots in one jump. You will learn how to beat the life out of someone with a couple of sticks though (and use knives if you want to). I know that a lot of people, especially Americans favor guns, but they're overrated for most people, in most situations. They're great for murdering someone from ambush, and they feel big and heavy and impressive, but unless you're actually trained in the use of it to the point of keeping a calm head in a crisis, it's just a scary lottery with lethal consequences. Sticks are easy. Sticks are everywhere. Sticks can fuck you up. Sticks are also legal everywhere, and finally, if you need training anyway to be effective in a crisis, why not train with something you can use anywhere and anytime?

Any likely self defense situation you can't get out of with Escrima and some sticks, or a knife, you probably weren't going to get out of anyway.

Eh what I already know works well enough for self defense, which is why I avoided being raped, throwing someone whose attempting to grab you head first into pavement does that. The problem is I couldn't get any defense from the law. Killing the person in self defense wouldn't help anyways, because it's pretty easy to prejudice jurors into convicting innocent people, if said innocent people are social undesirables.

 

[moose7]

Yeah being trans is terrifying. I only started hormones a few months ago and so far the effects have been pretty amazing. All kinds of emotional problems are going away but I've already been disowned by my dad and I'm terrified of coming out at work and losing my job. I'm not out yet so I haven't had to deal with any harassment or skip using the bathroom out of fear yet like a lot of other trans folk. The worst part is that all these issues are being caused because people think that whats between my legs is some how more important then whats between my ears. I have a female brain, the effects of the hormone treatment proves that. So if you must have an objective truth to tie your pronouns too then use my brain because that determines who I am far more then my body does.

Also KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime I love your Pokemon based trans flag avatar.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Yeah being trans is terrifying. I only started hormones a few months ago and so far the effects have been pretty amazing. All kinds of emotional problems are going away but I've already been disowned by my dad and I'm terrified of coming out at work and losing my job. I'm not out yet so I haven't had to deal with any harassment or skip using the bathroom out of fear yet like a lot of other trans folk. The worst part is that all these issues are being caused because people think that whats between my legs is some how more important then whats between my ears. I have a female brain, the effects of the hormone treatment proves that. So if you must have an objective truth to tie your pronouns too then use my brain because that determines who I am far more then my body does.

This is an excellent way to put it, most people get all tied up in genitals, which honestly is something that they will never see, nor have to interact with. Really people seem to get all weird about trans folk, because really society puts all these sexual stigmas on everyone, especially when the person in question isn't straight, or cis.

I'm sorry that you were disowned by your dad, it really sucks when family gets so caught up in their own biases to the point where the abandon a loved one. Especially when that loved one is in such a sensitive place. As for your work... Well do you work with anyone else who is LGBTQ+? If they do they might have some insight into what to expect when you should expect when you come out.

Also KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime I love your Pokemon based trans flag avatar.

Aww! Thanks, that made my night! I was torn between Sylveon and Milotic, but Sylveon has become my favorite pokemon and not just because it's trans pride colors. Though I went into it with the idea to use a trans pride flag and Sylveon. I got tired of making avatars with just a trans pride filter and I think this looks a lot better.

Edit! Ack I almost forgot, I got distracted while writing my post. Congrats on getting HRT!!!

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

And even if the police are cooperative it doesn't mean anything is going to get worked out. So many trans people just wont report being attacked. I probably wouldn't. Unless there is a body these things rarely go to trial.

To expand on this I was harassed for years by a person, who eventually attempted to rape me, even after that event I couldn't get a restraining order on them, or a investigation of the attempted rape. I've never had a truly bad experience with the police either... But that failure on the law's part told me I'm not going to get help in those situations.

A martial art that emphasizes simple, often improvised weaponry is a good place to start, like Escrima. Sure, you won't learn how to use a sword or a spear, or kick three pots in one jump. You will learn how to beat the life out of someone with a couple of sticks though (and use knives if you want to). I know that a lot of people, especially Americans favor guns, but they're overrated for most people, in most situations. They're great for murdering someone from ambush, and they feel big and heavy and impressive, but unless you're actually trained in the use of it to the point of keeping a calm head in a crisis, it's just a scary lottery with lethal consequences. Sticks are easy. Sticks are everywhere. Sticks can fuck you up. Sticks are also legal everywhere, and finally, if you need training anyway to be effective in a crisis, why not train with something you can use anywhere and anytime?

Any likely self defense situation you can't get out of with Escrima and some sticks, or a knife, you probably weren't going to get out of anyway.

Fascinating art, Escrima. I did Jiujitsu for a long time and I feel what I learned would be equally applicable to your point. Never did weapon work though, our school wasn't really equipped for it.


OT: I gotta ask; I skimmed the article but I don't feel I came away knowing arguably the most important part of this story. Are they happy?

 

[Syzygy23]

Why is it plural? Isn't only one of them trans?

 

[elvor0]

Doesn't this article kind of...add to the over all problem of sensationalizing her outing? I mean I know the article doesn't really talk about her outing so much as the fact that she was forced to do so and the OP has no malicious or offensive intent what so ever, but I feel like the thread title could've been worded more along the lines of "Second Wachowski sibling forced to out herself".

I dunno, I just feel like making a big thing out of all this makes transitioning to a state where no one cares harder because its always a song and dance. Obviously it is difficult to come out, even more so as trans I imagine, but making a huge media frenzy every time someone comes out is bad enough, but then everyone else joins in, whether your intentions are good or not, I think sensationalizing the matter is making it harder us to get to a point where noone cares if you're trans. If people just went "oh right", like most decent people do with gay people (just as an example, because that's not as interesting a scoop anymore because noone cares), I think it would hurry along trans people to be as boringly normal as the rest of us.

 

[elvor0]

The linguistic argument "well if words still mean what they mean" is an argument used by people who default to a strict dictionary definition to back up personal bigotries and biases. It's someone trying not to sound bigoted when they're being a bigot, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't think this is a healthy attitude to take. He's not wrong, they are still genetically brothers. He didn't say anything hostile, just a cold, hard scientific fact. That doesn't innately mean he's bigoted or anti trans. Obviously I should imagine it's immensely frustrating to have your gender questioned as a trans person, but that doesn't change what your chromosomes are.

Now, I don't give a rats arse about your chromosomes from any social point of view(Lilly Wachowski is now Lilly Wachowski, good for her on finding herself) and for 99% of intents and purposes they don't matter, but they do still exist. The bigot label gets thrown around A LOT, when discussing gender politics and it frankly, bugs the shit out of me. Its a word that shuts down discussion, even if the person being accused clearly or hasn't actually done anything hostile. Rather than calling the fellow bigoted, perhaps explain why it is impolite? Otherwise you breed more hostility, I know I get pissed as fuck if someone calls me bigoted when I'm trying to have a discussion when I know damn well I'm not.

We are talking about linguistics here, and you can generally infer what people mean by the context in which they say it. If someone has a problem with X group, they will generally let you fucking know it, they don't dance around the issue. Some people don't even know they're being offensive or "bigoted" and it's much better to educate them so they don't make the same mistake in the future rather than demonize them for something they may not even know they're doing wrong.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

OT: I gotta ask; I skimmed the article but I don't feel I came away knowing arguably the most important part of this story. Are they happy?

I think it's safe to infer that Lana and Lilly are happier now, than when they were living as the wrong gender. Though I doubt that Lilly is very pleased with the situation that forced to out herself to the general public.

Why is it plural? Isn't only one of them trans?

Not trying to be mean here, but it'd help if you read the article, searched "The Wachowski Siblings" on Google, or read the thread up to the point where you posted. Still I can understand that this is a trans interest subject, so one who isn't trans might not have all the information. I can also understand that because there are four Wachowski siblings; two who were assigned female at birth, while the other two were assigned male at birth, why this might be confusing. So I'll save you the trouble and confusion and just answer your question as clearly as I can:

It's plural because the second "brother" has come out as trans, Lilly Wachowski came out as trans just like her sister Lana has. Laura and Julie Wachowski though, as far as I know are cisgender women. Meaning that Laura, and Julie were assigned female at birth and their gender identities are also female. Lilly and Lana were assigned male at birth but have come out as trans women. I hope that clears your confusion up.

Doesn't this article kind of...add to the over all problem of sensationalizing her outing? I mean I know the article doesn't really talk about her outing so much as the fact that she was forced to do so and the OP has no malicious or offensive intent what so ever, but I feel like the thread title could've been worded more along the lines of "Second Wachowski sibling forced to out herself".

Well unfortunately it would have been a lot worse if the Daily Fail Mail had been able to print it's "exclusive story" on Lilly being trans. Because said article would have been a mean spirited hit piece against Lilly. So Lilly gave the story to another publication first, thus preventing the Daily Mail tabloid to smear her. It's not fair she had to out herself this way, but the alternative is a lot worse.

I dunno, I just feel like making a big thing out of all this makes transitioning to a state where no one cares harder because its always a song and dance. Obviously it is difficult to come out, even more so as trans I imagine, but making a huge media frenzy every time someone comes out is bad enough, but then everyone else joins in, whether your intentions are good or not, I think sensationalizing the matter is making it harder us to get to a point where noone cares if you're trans. If people just went "oh right", like most decent people do with gay people (just as an example, because that's not as interesting a scoop anymore because noone cares), I think it would hurry along trans people to be as boringly normal as the rest of us.

The problem is that being trans is controversial, even though it shouldn't be, a lot of people will sensationalize a celebrity being trans just because it's not "normal". Along with that there are a lot of people on both sides of the left/right wing political divide who want to invalidate our identities. That means they have a vested interest in sensationalizing any trans person they can, especially one who's already famous. Honestly the current level of sensationalism around trans folk puts us in the spot light, because this gives us visibility though, it does help with the normalization process. Once people get used to the idea that trans folk exist, only then can the exposure be seen as; "meh so what?" Before we can get to that point though, we need visibility, which means sensationalizing trans people when we're exposed. The same thing happened to the gay community already, so it's not unprecedented, because the growing visibility is sensational, but eventually it stops being so shocking. Pretty typical of the normalization process actually.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

The linguistic argument "well if words still mean what they mean" is an argument used by people who default to a strict dictionary definition to back up personal bigotries and biases. It's someone trying not to sound bigoted when they're being a bigot, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't think this is a healthy attitude to take. He's not wrong, they are still genetically brothers. He didn't say anything hostile, just a cold, hard scientific fact. That doesn't innately mean he's bigoted or anti trans. Obviously I should imagine it's immensely frustrating to have your gender questioned as a trans person, but that doesn't change what your chromosomes are.[

Now, I don't give a rats arse about your chromosomes from any social point of view(Lilly Wachowski is now Lilly Wachowski, good for her on finding herself) and for 99% of intents and purposes they don't matter, but they do still exist. The bigot label gets thrown around A LOT, when discussing gender politics and it frankly, bugs the shit out of me. Its a word that shuts down discussion, even if the person being accused clearly or hasn't actually done anything hostile. Rather than calling the fellow bigoted, perhaps explain why it is impolite? Otherwise you breed more hostility, I know I get pissed as fuck if someone calls me bigoted when I'm trying to have a discussion when I know damn well I'm not.

We are talking about linguistics here, and you can generally infer what people mean by the context in which they say it. If someone has a problem with X group, they will generally let you fucking know it, they don't dance around the issue. Some people don't even know they're being offensive or "bigoted" and it's much better to educate them so they don't make the same mistake in the future rather than demonize them for something they may not even know they're doing wrong.

Unfortunately while that all sounds reasonable, the only reason people ever misgender trans folk is to invalidate our identities. It's never not that intent when it comes to intentionally misgendering transgender people. The fact that several people tried to reasonably explain why he was wrong, but he stuck to his guns on the argument anyways, kind of speaks to that. I didn't call him bigoted, I tried to make that clear. What I tried to say was that he's using a bigoted argument, not that he is a bigot. Also did you know quite a lot of cisgender women have XY chromosomes, many undiagnosed because it doesn't impair them medically. There are also a lot of people born physically male who have XX chromosomes, again this goes undiagnosed if it doesn't cause a medical issue, or said person in either group doesn't have a karyotype genetic test. For example I have XX chromosomes despite having been born physically male. Then you have people with XXY, XXXY, XYY, and etc genetic states.

As for just explaining why something is impolite? Well there a number of reasons, but it all boils down to the fact that it tends not to work. We already tried our best to explain why it's impolite, but the disagreement still continued with said person sticking to their statement, even after they admitted they don't know the scientific consensus on this. Basically saying they're going to disrespect people in spite of not knowing the medical, or scientific situation. That is really heavily biased to say the least and that doesn't make it any less insulting either.

The problem is, using dictionary definitions, or misunderstood science are classic tactics for people to sound polite when they're being racist, sexist, homophobic, and/or transphobic. I see these sorts of arguments used far too often for me to just dismiss the argument as not being bigoted. Mind you I say the argument is a bigoted one, what I'm not saying is that the person making the argument is a bigot. Really though the excuse of; "they might not even know what they're doing is wrong", kind of doesn't hold water, especially when the tactic is one commonly used in racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia. A lot of people who are indeed racist, sexist, homophobic, or/and transphobic, will dance around the subject, especially in environments where they know open hate speech isn't tolerated. Again I'm not saying Emanuele is a bigot, just that the reasoning they're using is one used to justify bigotry.

 

[elvor0]

I didn't call him bigoted, I tried to make that clear, not that he is a bigot.

You said "the linguistic argument is used to back up personal bigotries". That doesn't sound like you're separating the statement from the person to me, BUT if that's what you meant to do, that's cool.

The linguistic argument "well if words still mean what they mean" is an argument used by people who default to a strict dictionary definition to back up personal bigotries and biases. It's someone trying not to sound bigoted when they're being a bigot, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't think this is a healthy attitude to take. He's not wrong, they are still genetically brothers. He didn't say anything hostile, just a cold, hard scientific fact. That doesn't innately mean he's bigoted or anti trans. Obviously I should imagine it's immensely frustrating to have your gender questioned as a trans person, but that doesn't change what your chromosomes are.[

Now, I don't give a rats arse about your chromosomes from any social point of view(Lilly Wachowski is now Lilly Wachowski, good for her on finding herself) and for 99% of intents and purposes they don't matter, but they do still exist. The bigot label gets thrown around A LOT, when discussing gender politics and it frankly, bugs the shit out of me. Its a word that shuts down discussion, even if the person being accused clearly or hasn't actually done anything hostile. Rather than calling the fellow bigoted, perhaps explain why it is impolite? Otherwise you breed more hostility, I know I get pissed as fuck if someone calls me bigoted when I'm trying to have a discussion when I know damn well I'm not.

We are talking about linguistics here, and you can generally infer what people mean by the context in which they say it. If someone has a problem with X group, they will generally let you fucking know it, they don't dance around the issue. Some people don't even know they're being offensive or "bigoted" and it's much better to educate them so they don't make the same mistake in the future rather than demonize them for something they may not even know they're doing wrong.

Unfortunately while that all sounds reasonable, the only reason people ever misgender trans folk is to invalidate our identities. It's never not that intent when it comes to intentionally misgendering transgender people. The fact that several people tried to reasonably explain why he was wrong, but he stuck to his guns on the argument anyways, kind of speaks to that. I didn't call him bigoted, I tried to make that clear. What I tried to say was that he's using a bigoted argument, not that he is a bigot. Also did you know quite a lot of cisgender women have XY chromosomes, many undiagnosed because it doesn't impair them medically. There are also a lot of people born physically male who have XX chromosomes, again this goes undiagnosed if it doesn't cause a medical issue, or said person in either group doesn't have a karyotype genetic test. For example I have XX chromosomes despite having been born physically male. Then you have people with XXY, XXXY, XYY, and etc genetic states.

I...did not. But from what I could gleam from google, XY Female Syndrome prevents you from experiencing puberty. Could you link a source for those that go undiagnosed due to no conditions? Because I assume you'd notice. I couldn't find anything myself. XX Male syndrome could certainly go unnoticed given the only symptoms are stated to be a small penis and infertility and "varying degrees of breast growth" going by wikipedia.

The closest I've been to this issue is "Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome" from an episode of House, and I'm not entirely sure how accurate that was. The hard thing is though....that's not normal in the slightest. They're mutations, anomalies. Most people are only aware of Male is XY, Female is XX. Crazy combinations screw with peoples heads because its not even something they can vaguely relate to or comprehend. Genetically XXMales and XYFemale people are actually the opposite sex, they just appear male or female. Which of course screws with peoples heads, 50 years of subconscious pattern recognition are very difficult to break. People talk in very general terms of what is normal and familiar, matey with XXXY genes doesn't come into their heads when discussing the matter, because they likely don't even know he exists, nor is he really part of the discussion because he's so anomalous it shouldn't effect the discussion.

Obviously there are people that use it to cut down trans people, many many people. But some don't do it out of spite, they do it because it fucks with their headspace. To those people, its like trying to explain colour to a blind person. John is now Jane makes no sense to them, because from their POV, John is still visually John, only John now has a dress on. It's part of the reason the changing room debate has been going on for so long. /Especially/ when you have people who haven't physically transitioned. Jane being in the changing room with her visually male body swinging his dick about is obviously very difficult to swallow for a lot of people. And of course it is, again 50 years of subconscious pattern recognition is difficult to break.

As for just explaining why something is impolite? Well there a number of reasons, but it all boils down to the fact that it tends not to work. We already tried our best to explain why it's impolite, but the disagreement still continued with said person sticking to their statement, even after they admitted they don't know the scientific consensus on this. Basically saying they're going to disrespect people in spite of not knowing the medical, or scientific situation. That is really heavily biased to say the least and that doesn't make it any less insulting either.

Yeah you're right, 95% of the time, it isn't going to work. But engaging in debate, no matter how frustrating when the other person stonewalls you (truth be told I am on the opposite side of the fence to you), you will get through to one person, one day and it will be marvelous. Always stick to your guns.

Really though the excuse of; "they might not even know what they're doing is wrong", kind of doesn't hold water, especially when the tactic is one commonly used in racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia. A lot of people who are indeed racist, sexist, homophobic, or/and transphobic, will dance around the subject, especially in environments where they know open hate speech isn't tolerated. Again I'm not saying Emanuele is a bigot, just that the reasoning they're using is one used to justify bigotry.

People do use those tactics for sure, but I like to be optimistic that most people are just ignorant. Not that I'm saying you feel this way or that I'm getting those vibes from you(in fact, I may have bitten off more than I can chew here for discussion, hoo boy), but assuming everyone actively hates you just breeds paranoia and hostility. Obviously the below doesn't apply to genes specifically so much as the issue in general.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/meredithtalusan/cissexist-bullshit-translator#.ldbDWNEj2

Now, this link is....quite hyperbolic but it is genuine. It's basically the extremist version of what we're discussing but that is what I fear happens quite a bit. I have been attacked quite a bit in the past for trying to educate myself or for saying things I didnt even know were offensive. Now, it doesn't happen that much but I believe shit like this actually harms the trans cause. I mean those comics fuck me off. They genuinely make me angry at the toss pot who wrote them. Now it's possible that the author could just have been worn down by the world, but I think not, barring some areas, the western world isn't actually that hostile to transpeople. The last two especially do not help. Clearly neither of the people in those 2 strips are bigots or even vaguely offensive, but the author just decides the best way to respond to any interaction to do with trans...ism(?, word?) is to be a passive aggressive twat and assume everyone hates him. Of course if that is how he actually behaves, of course everyone hates him...because he's a passive aggressive twat, and some use that as ammunition to demonstrate that people are bigots.

Essentially this is the extreme demonstration of why I originally said your attitude was unhealthy to begin with. Obviously your post makes it abundantly clear I was in the wrong with that description but there you go.

Doesn't this article kind of...add to the over all problem of sensationalizing her outing? I mean I know the article doesn't really talk about her outing so much as the fact that she was forced to do so and the OP has no malicious or offensive intent what so ever, but I feel like the thread title could've been worded more along the lines of "Second Wachowski sibling forced to out herself".

Well unfortunately it would have been a lot worse if the Daily Fail Mail had been able to print it's "exclusive story" on Lilly being trans. Because said article would have been a mean spirited hit piece against Lilly. So Lilly gave the story to another publication first, thus preventing the Daily Mail tabloid to smear her. It's not fair she had to out herself this way, but the alternative is a lot worse.

Oh definitely, her outing her self was probablly the best reaction to the scenario, I'm just saying I think it would be better to headline the stuff around the outing rather than the actual outing, if you catch my drift. That way you bang on the daily mail for being dickbags as the main talking point rather than adding to the sensation-ism

Blimy, we're going to have fun formatting this from here on out aren't we?