US 2024 Presidential Election

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Silvanus

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What of their actions indicates they are protestors at all?
? The fact the car is in their way, along with the earlier section of the video in which Renee and the other woman speak to the officer ("That's fine, I'm not mad at you [...] we don't change our plates every morning, they'll be the same plates when you speak to us later"), which suggests they know the men are officers. Protest against an ICE operation in the area is the most credible conclusion.

Do you tend to assume anyone who engages with you intends to kill you, even if they make no attack?
 

Phoenixmgs

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What I'm hearing from you is that you have no examples, so in fact they did not do the same things under Obama.

I ask for specific examples and you give me an opinion piece with no evidence and no examples from a right wing news source complaining about "the radical left."
Matt Taibbi is one of the few really good reporters working. He wrote a book that details how ICE operates.
 

Hades

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“Diplomatic masterpiece and hero of Davos. Foreign media laude Rutte after Trump backtracks”. Words like these are ringing in the foreign press about former prime Minister Mark Rutte.

Still not sure it’s deserved. Maybe future histories will write Mark was all that stood between the world and the apocalypse. Could be. But the very fact things nearly escalated to war also leads to the implication Rutte sticks to a failing strategy. The bootlicking and appeasing doesn’t seem to have worked. It’s just as likely Europe promising to burn down the US economy got Trump to back off, and that Rutte got presented as the savior to prevent Trump's ego getting bruised by having to admit that.

While I'd trust few others to sit in Rutte's seat right now the very fact that things nearly escalated to open warfare between allies shows the ''daddy diplomacy'' wasn't working. If it did things would never have reached that point.
 

Phoenixmgs

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“Diplomatic masterpiece and hero of Davos. Foreign media laude Rutte after Trump backtracks”. Words like these are ringing in the foreign press about former prime Minister Mark Rutte.

Still not sure it’s deserved. Maybe future histories will write Mark was all that stood between the world and the apocalypse. Could be. But the very fact things nearly escalated to war also leads to the implication Rutte sticks to a failing strategy. The bootlicking and appeasing doesn’t seem to have worked. It’s just as likely Europe promising to burn down the US economy got Trump to back off, and that Rutte got presented as the savior to prevent Trump's ego getting bruised by having to admit that.

While I'd trust few others to sit in Rutte's seat right now the very fact that things nearly escalated to open warfare between allies shows the ''daddy diplomacy'' wasn't working. If it did things would never have reached that point.
I've been telling you guys that there is no way the US would take over Greenland (unless Greenland actually wanted to be US territory). Ya'll worry about the dumbest shit that has no chance of happening.
 

Hades

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I've been telling you guys that there is no way the US would take over Greenland (unless Greenland actually wanted to be US territory). Ya'll worry about the dumbest shit that has no chance of happening.
Pretty sure the president of the US saying he'll steal it by force like a treasonous thief is more meaningful than you saying he wouldn't. But if you were correct the whole topic would have been dropped when the population said they had no interest in losing all their rights and protections by joining the US.
 

Silvanus

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But they never actually protested, only obstructed.
Obstruction is a form of protest as I understand it. It registers objection and makes their exercise a bit more difficult.

Do you think a more credible conclusion is that if someone obstructs your (highly controversial, public-facing) work, they must be intending to murder?
 

tstorm823

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Obstruction is a form of protest as I understand it. It registers objection and makes their exercise a bit more difficult.

Do you think a more credible conclusion is that if someone obstructs your (highly controversial, public-facing) work, they must be intending to murder?
Lots of things can be a protest so long as the intention is expressed. Blocking roads, throwing paint at art, all sorts of things... But they all come with an expression of what the protestor's goal is.

The credible conclusion is that they are just obstructing law enforcement, which is a crime, for which the procedure is to arrest them, which requires getting them out of the car...
 

Phoenixmgs

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Pretty sure the president of the US saying he'll steal it by force like a treasonous thief is more meaningful than you saying he wouldn't. But if you were correct the whole topic would have been dropped when the population said they had no interest in losing all their rights and protections by joining the US.
Funny how all the things that I say will never happen, never happen. Remember when ya'll said the Supreme Court is going to overturn gay marriage and I said "why ya'll worrying about shit that won't happen?" and years later the Supreme Court didn't even hear the case let alone rule on it, let alone overturn it?
 

Trunkage

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Ross was dragged by a car for 100 yards a few months back. Let's not forget a car can be used as a dangerous weapon. Acting like his response is an objectively wrong reaction that somebody shouldn't possibly have to that situation is itself ridiculous. People have very different responses to high pressure moments all the time where there's little to no time to react. There's no level of training that just makes you good at reacting when you do finally face such a situation. The vast majority of cops never fire their gun and really have no actual experience in such situations. Whether it's a high pressure situation when playing a sport or being in an actual life and death situation (something teachers, nurses, doctors rarely face), there's no way to train for it that will 100% make you react properly. If there was, then athletes would never choke in big pressure moments and athletes train and practice more than anyone else. Everyone reacts differently to rather mundane things like say how much variance when someone tosses something to someone, some people catch it easily, some cover of their face in fear of getting hit. Driving in snowy conditions, some people freeze and scream when their car slides and end up in a ditch, some calmly correct the slide and it's essentially a non-event.
Putting your arm inside a car's cabin sounds like a really good way to get dragged 100 metres. Watching him was like watching a person who has no sense of self-preservation

This is not, in any shape or form, an appropriate response to a high-pressure situation. ANY other reaction would have been appropriate. Also, putting yourself in more danger is just stupid. It was wrong AND stupid

He should never done anything he did for about a minute before the shooting. Your training is supposed to make sure you never get into those positions in the first place. We have video footage of him failing his job for at least a minute, putting himself, Good and his ICE buddies into harm's way. He should not be let near a gun if he cannot fulfil his basic duties

If this is a training issue, his superiors need to be held accountable too and the whole department reformed. If it's just him, he should never be in law enforcement again at minimum and probably in jail

Also, whenever you blame protestors for taking dangerous actions as a response to law enforcement, I will be pointing to this post. Officers should be held to a higher standard
 

Trunkage

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What I'm hearing from you is that you have no examples, so in fact they did not do the same things under Obama.

I ask for specific examples and you give me an opinion piece with no evidence and no examples from a right wing news source complaining about "the radical left."
Matt Taibbi today is also not the Matt Taibbi of 10 years ago. Now he follows the money instead of doing actual journalism

Just like ICE today is not the ICE of 10 years ago

We are not the people we were 10 years ago. This should not be hard for people
 

Agema

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I thoroughly understand that people can disagree with me, I know you disagree with me on many things... but not this. You don't believe their actions are reasonable, I know this of you for a number of reasons.
No. Stop right there. Read what I said and start thinking I meant it.

First, nothing you've ever said has suggested a general support for hooliganism.
You're right, I don't believe in hooliganism.

I do however believe in the principles of direct action, and political violence as long as it is proportionate to injustice. I also accept or tolerate political violence as a natural consequence of circumstance, policy and so on - as MLK approximately said, "A riot is the voice of the unheard". Furthermore, I think it needs to be understood that a great deal of policing is a form of political violence. Policing is often not neutral, because all too often the police reflect the vested interests of the state itself, thus (and even worse) those that run the state. Indeed, the Trump administration is useful as it is all but explicit about law and enforcement being a tool to oppress its opponents, persecute its enemies, and impose its values.

If you haven't noticed this to be my opinion on the matter, then you just haven't been paying enough attention.

But secondly, even if you did, even if you thought ICE was so terrible to be supportive of people rising up against them directly, you are reasonable enough to know that what they were doing is just counterproductive.
We could also call a protest a demonstration. People are demonstrating their beliefs and values. Democracy is not just turning up every few years to press a button or write a cross on a sheet of paper, it's wider engagement of writing letters to representatives, joining political parties, donating, etc. and, where relevant, demonstrating. That includes demonstrators letting others know they want ICE to get the fuck out of their community - where people includes neighbours, local politicians, national politicians, the media, all their countrymen and ICE agents themselves. So they stand up and make a noise and get in their way in a manner that makes clear that their view is "Get the fuck out of our community".

Now, of course, I did mention proportionality. Relevant here that the invasion of cities by ICE is intensely politicised and partisan: look no further than the way Trump talks about them. It's not just normal enforcement, it's a Republican-led federal administration deliberately targeting Democratic cities with heavy-handed, showy assaults for publicity. It's show punishment, performative thuggery, designed to aggravate and incite Trump's enemies for the pleasure of Trump's most odious supporters. That very much merits a reaction from the citizens of those cities, their clear statement of resistance.

But thirdly and most directly, it's a contradiction of your position on this issue.
Following your logic there, the more violently the state and its agents behave, the more the public should acquiesce to the state. This is exactly the opposite of both what I believe, and what is healthy for a democratic society.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Putting your arm inside a car's cabin sounds like a really good way to get dragged 100 metres. Watching him was like watching a person who has no sense of self-preservation

This is not, in any shape or form, an appropriate response to a high-pressure situation. ANY other reaction would have been appropriate. Also, putting yourself in more danger is just stupid. It was wrong AND stupid

He should never done anything he did for about a minute before the shooting. Your training is supposed to make sure you never get into those positions in the first place. We have video footage of him failing his job for at least a minute, putting himself, Good and his ICE buddies into harm's way. He should not be let near a gun if he cannot fulfil his basic duties

If this is a training issue, his superiors need to be held accountable too and the whole department reformed. If it's just him, he should never be in law enforcement again at minimum and probably in jail

Also, whenever you blame protestors for taking dangerous actions as a response to law enforcement, I will be pointing to this post. Officers should be held to a higher standard
The very most that this could be is manslaughter, everyone is saying it's murder doesn't know what the word means (so many people don't understand what words mean today). I don't find it an appropriate action to take on his part but you also shouldn't drive at anyone either. This is another of the very many things where people won't use a single iota of nuance, there is no way it is 100% his fault, perhaps 70/30, perhaps 40/60, depending on your point of view, but the way every incident like this is discussed is a complete failure human discussion.

Nobody puts themselves in the shoes of law enforcement is the problem. Just a basic traffic stop can turn into a life or death situation in less than a second, that's why you keep your hands in view, don't quickly reach for something and all that. You're expecting the other human being to not be on edge in such even mundane situations let alone even higher pressure situations? Being a basic cop isn't an easy job in the least. You all will talk about mental health and all that for others but not say law enforcement officers that have more trauma and stress than pretty much anyone else.

Matt Taibbi today is also not the Matt Taibbi of 10 years ago. Now he follows the money instead of doing actual journalism

Just like ICE today is not the ICE of 10 years ago

We are not the people we were 10 years ago. This should not be hard for people
The journalism I was referring to Matt did over 10 years ago so what's the issue?
 

Agema

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You all need to consider what a protest actually is. What of their actions actually indicates that they are peaceful protesters? How would you distinguish them from cop killers?
Sure. And likewise, how do the police know that a hippy waving a peace sign doesn't actually have an Uzi in his hemp bag that he plans to whip out and lay waste?

You know how the police can be sure? Go in guns aimed and cocked and start shooting people in the head the moment they feel uneasy.
 

tstorm823

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This is exactly the opposite of both what I believe, and what is healthy for a democratic society.
So if a cop in your town was being particularly violent and thuggish, what you would do (and believe would be healthy for your Democracy) is to pursue direct confrontation with them in the streets?

I don't think so. You file complaints, or bring a lawsuit against them, or petition your lawmakers for redress. I am certainly not saying that authorities becoming violent is reason to step aside, but you have to address it in the proper arena, and street ambush is not the place where you accomplish anything.

Mind you, the thing that they want is wrong, and they aren't going to succeed in any arena, but at least they'd be attempting something with a chance not to hurt their cause. When your position falls short in a Democracy, you don't get to just declare yourself the resistance and stop the enforcement. Imagine Republicans barricading the IRS headquarters, you would laugh at the attempt.

With regard to you saying they are targeting Democratic cities, those are specifically the places that have declared themselves sanctuaries (or whatever equivalent thing they want to name noncompliance with federal immigration laws). It is not in any way unexpected that there would be more immigration crimes to pursue in those circumstances. Nothing that is happening is particularly different than what you would expect from good-faith execution of the nation's laws as passed. Deportations are happening from red areas just the same, but without the fanfare or protests or the need for additional staff due to the resistance of the local governments. There have been some mistakes assuredly, and some edge cases where the law is uncertain, but the idea that this is punishment for not voting for Trump or something like that is silly, this was always going to be the inevitable end of a city declaring certain federal laws invalid inside itself. Cities don't get to just decide that federal law doesn't apply in them.
 

Silvanus

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Lots of things can be a protest so long as the intention is expressed. Blocking roads, throwing paint at art, all sorts of things... But they all come with an expression of what the protestor's goal is.
Yep. And sometimes, the obstruction is enough of an expression, to convey that the actor doesn't want the officer to carry on.

You can object to that interpretation of her actions if you want. But we both know you believe she was there to object, not to murder the officer. You already said you think she was just trying to get away.

The credible conclusion is that they are just obstructing law enforcement, which is a crime, for which the procedure is to arrest them, which requires getting them out of the car...
I notice you trail off with ellipsis there, rather than following that thought through. Is that because the accepted procedure actually doesn't end with them being executed in their car, even if they don't get out when an officer demands it (while swearing at you)?
 

tstorm823

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I notice you trail off with ellipsis there, rather than following that thought through. Is that because the accepted procedure actually doesn't end with them being executed in their car, even if they don't get out when an officer demands it (while swearing at you)?
That is correct, and we agree that he was wrong to shoot, but up until the point where she tried to drive away, everything was proceeding in exactly the way you would expect them to when someone tries to blockade the police.

At some point, one of you two is going to break and admit that they should not have been doing what they were doing.