US 2024 Presidential Election

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Agema

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What ? I missed that.

That would be something to see.
I'm pretty sure it's in there, although potentially more as a suggestion than a concrete aim.

Project 2025 is not a fully coherent programme. It has major themes, but to an extent is a mixed bag of opinions from individual contributors who can have substantial differences in their vision and objectives, so some things are not consistent. Thus just because one contributor suggested a return to the gold standard doesn't mean it is a firm policy intent. There always have been a fringe group around the US right wing who pine for the days of the gold standard.
 

tstorm823

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Project 2025 is a deeply ideological manifesto
It's a document with 36 listed authors, and 8 pages of listed named contributors, who often take quite different positions. One may be talking about eliminating NPR entirely, while not so many pages later, another person is praising the importance of USAID. The only section of the entire document with group authorship listed is "Managing the Bureaucracy", which spends more time lauding efforts of Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama than of Donald Trump, while talking through practical ways to reduce the size of government and promote meritocracy.

Maybe you should read it, or at least skim, before saying nonsense.
 

tstorm823

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So, whataboutism again. You think I've "nitpicked" on broad-strokes questions in the past, so therefore its fine for you to excuse slanderous lies thrown at the victim of a shooting.
I haven't excused them, I've explicitly condemned them. I've just also criticized you. The shooting was bad, their description is deceitful, and then you said something incorrect about it. All of those can be true.
 

tstorm823

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You see the world in an intensely partisan R v D way.
Agema, we are talking about having more Republicans and fewer Democrats in the federal bureaucracy. How else do you intend to frame this specific argument?
 

Agema

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Maybe you should read it, or at least skim, before saying nonsense.
Maybe you should think before you spout, because for something to be ideological does not mean it can't have significant inconsistency.

You should know this as a Catholic, and therefore presumably familiar with the Bible.
 
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Agema

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Agema, we are talking about having more Republicans and fewer Democrats in the federal bureaucracy. How else do you intend to frame this specific argument?
If we remove the specific parties, what we are discussing is the replacement of professionally neutral bureaucrats with overtly political, partisan activists. And even worse, those activists are operating under a leader and political ideology that has more than a whiff of authoritarianism.

Now, imagine you are someone like me that believes in democracy, separation of powers, transparency, accountability, etc. That replacement is a problem.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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I asked for evidence you provided nothing. I'm not going to buy a book to prove you wrong. If you want to prove your position find me articles to read that have specific cases and statistics or fuck off with your bullshit equivocations.
You're saying someone that researched ICE and reported on ICE doesn't know what they are talking about? It's a lot harder to find articles on ICE in those times because the mainstream media like CNN was doing ride-a-longs with ICE and saying how great they were.

Some states do not have the term manslaughter. They class it as a lesser homocide. Minnesota does. Its a mess because federally there is no consistency

No body drove at anyone. Good had ample opportunity to run Ross over if she wanted to. She did not. She waited until Ross was beside the vehicle before moving

I have also seen what you personally do with nuance. For example, Good could have waited another second before moving. You would just blame Good for everyrhing becuase thats what you do. Its also moot point, as Ross should respond.... but not with a gun. Thats the problem. Its a massive overreaction to a minor problem. You cannot physically do naunce so no one does naunce with you

You get what you give. If you want naunce, show any form of ability to show naunce. Until such time, I will be only giving nuance to those who deserve a response

See, the problem is that I did. YOU were the one stating that a car can be a weapon. Ross stood in front of loaded gun TWICE. No wonder he's scared. He put himself into danger

If I was Ross, I would have acted like the other officers. Stand away from the vehicle. Let her have a chance of passing by



Unfortately, Taibbi have been following the money. He gets paid to propogandize and ignore journalistic integrity
Ah.

She drove at him, I've seen several angles. If you wanna say the car was like 6 inches to his left technically or something like that, that's a bullshit argument. It's like whipping a baseball at someone and saying it was 2 inches to your left so why'd you think it was coming at you. Ross doesn't know Good's intentions, people aren't telepathically linked together. Some people once they realize they are actual legit trouble, react in rather different manners than you would think based on how they were previously reacting. You never seen someone getting arrested basically become a completely different person the second they actually realize they are getting arrested and aren't getting out of it?

A car is a weapon, that is a fact. Saying what you would do is not what everyone would do. People react to things (especially things that happen in a split second) differently and just because you would do something different doesn't mean that is the only accepted reaction to that. Some people panic when their car slides in the snow, just because I don't doesn't mean that I can't see that panicking is an acceptable human reaction to that. It's going to be very hard to convince people that someone driving their car at you (or 6 inches to the left of you) isn't a situation in which you can see fear for your life as an acceptable thought. I'm like 99.9% sure I wouldn't have even thought to shoot at the driver in that situation but it's also a reaction I could see some people having. You guys act like law enforcement are homicidal maniacs just looking for whatever excuse it is to kill someone. You act like Ross was just sitting at home one day writing down all these possible circumstances that could come up in which he could kill someone and it would be "OK" and then mentally preparing for that moment so he can kill someone because the only reason he signed up for the job was so he could kill someone and not get in trouble essentially.

Again, the reporting is over 10 years old when you said he was a legit journalist. So, what's the problem? I also don't know of a time Taibbi has lied about something factual. If you wanna say his opinion is sometimes bad, that's true of everyone.



Compared to Russia or China, they’d be better off under U.S. oversight for obvious reasons if it ever got to that.
Yeah, I know the whole Greenland thing was just so another country didn't get access to Greenland essentially.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I asked for evidence you provided nothing. I'm not going to buy a book to prove you wrong. If you want to prove your position find me articles to read that have specific cases and statistics or fuck off with your bullshit equivocations.
You're saying someone that researched ICE and reported on ICE doesn't know what they are talking about? It's a lot harder to find articles on ICE in those times because the mainstream media like CNN was doing ride-alongs with ICE and saying how great they were.

Some states do not have the term manslaughter. They class it as a lesser homocide. Minnesota does. Its a mess because federally there is no consistency

No body drove at anyone. Good had ample opportunity to run Ross over if she wanted to. She did not. She waited until Ross was beside the vehicle before moving

I have also seen what you personally do with nuance. For example, Good could have waited another second before moving. You would just blame Good for everyrhing becuase thats what you do. Its also moot point, as Ross should respond.... but not with a gun. Thats the problem. Its a massive overreaction to a minor problem. You cannot physically do naunce so no one does naunce with you

You get what you give. If you want naunce, show any form of ability to show naunce. Until such time, I will be only giving nuance to those who deserve a response

See, the problem is that I did. YOU were the one stating that a car can be a weapon. Ross stood in front of loaded gun TWICE. No wonder he's scared. He put himself into danger

If I was Ross, I would have acted like the other officers. Stand away from the vehicle. Let her have a chance of passing by



Unfortately, Taibbi have been following the money. He gets paid to propogandize and ignore journalistic integrity
Ah.

She drove at him, I've seen several angles. If you wanna say the car was like 6 inches to his left technically or something like that, that's a bullshit argument. It's like whipping a baseball at someone and saying it was 2 inches to your left so why'd you think it was coming at you. Ross doesn't know Good's intentions, people aren't telepathically linked together. Some people once they realize they are actual legit trouble, react in rather different manners than you would think based on how they were previously reacting. You never seen someone getting arrested basically become a completely different person the second they actually realize they are getting arrested and aren't getting out of it?

A car is a weapon, that is a fact. Saying what you would do is not what everyone would do. People react to things (especially things that happen in a split second) differently and just because you would do something different doesn't mean that is the only accepted reaction to that. Some people panic when their car slides in the snow, just because I don't doesn't mean that I can't see that panicking is an acceptable human reaction to that. It's going to be very hard to convince people that someone driving their car at you (or 6 inches to the left of you) isn't a situation in which you can see fear for your life as an acceptable thought. I'm like 99.9% sure I wouldn't have even thought to shoot at the driver in that situation but it's also a reaction I could see some people having. You guys act like law enforcement are homicidal maniacs just looking for whatever excuse it is to kill someone. You act like Ross was just sitting at home one day writing down all these possible circumstances that could come up in which he could kill someone and it would be "OK" and then mentally preparing for that moment so he can kill someone because the only reason he signed up for the job was so he could kill someone and not get in trouble essentially.

Again, the reporting is over 10 years old when you said he was a legit journalist. So, what's the problem? I also don't know of a time Taibbi has lied about something factual. If you wanna say his opinion is sometimes bad, that's true of everyone.



Compared to Russia or China, they’d be better off under U.S. oversight for obvious reasons if it ever got to that.
Yeah, I know the whole Greenland thing was just so another country didn't get access
 

tstorm823

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If we remove the specific parties, what we are discussing is the replacement of professionally neutral bureaucrats with overtly political, partisan activists.
Lol.
Maybe you should think before you spout, because for something to be ideological does not mean it can't have significant inconsistency.
Double lol, even.

To summarize, ideology is a meaningless term and neutral is whatever Democrats want. Is that really what you're going with?
 

Hades

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You guys act like law enforcement are homicidal maniacs just looking for whatever excuse it is to kill someone. You act like Ross was just sitting at home one day writing down all these possible circumstances that could come up in which he could kill someone and it would be "OK" and then mentally preparing for that moment so he can kill someone because the only reason he signed up for the job was so he could kill someone and not get in trouble essentially.
Depends on the law agencies I suppose. In general law enforcement people do not act like that. In France, Germany, the UK, Japan, Switzerland or Swahili law enforcement probably aren't looking to deliberately kill people.

In America specifically its a bit more murky. I can understand the idea that everyone a cop could talk with potentially being able to have a gun that can kill them is intensely frightening. Which seems an argument not to have the public have them but whatever. If officers are trapped in perpetual lethal environments then one flying off the handle can indeed be an unfortunate result without anyone having any ill will about the situation. However there have been cases where police brutality in the US goes beyond this explanation and where bad faith seems to exist. Like sitting on a handcuffed man's neck for minutes long till he dies from it. Or firing if someone's hands are up.

But ICE in particular? I'm not even giving them that benefit of the doubt. With how their ranks got filled with any far right loon the agency got it hands on, and how they are gleefully in near war with the public its dubious to even compare them with actual law enforcement. Whether they deliberately set out to murder people depends on the officer I suppose, but in general they seem motivated by resentment, the idea that brown people are animals, and that the public should ''find out if they fuck around!''

I do indeed think that the chance to brutalize some brown people, and maybe leftists to boot, as well as supporting far right ideology was a bigger motivator then any particular love for the law. And the fact that traitors from Jan 6 can be found in their ranks does little to prove otherwise.

I do not think they care about ''keeping America safe'' beyond the absurd idea that brown people are animals who need to be contained and who are always violent and in the US to rape and murder, rather than to just do thankless work for well below minimum wage. And while they might not (usually) strive to murder they likely are deliberately escalating the situation, and are gleeful to use force when they can do so. Its worth pointing out that none of the ICE killers seemed to feel remotely guilty about what had happened.

Yeah, I know the whole Greenland thing was just so another country didn't get access
That's doubtful since the US already had every tool in the toolbox to prevent that country from getting access. Not that such a thing should even be up to America. They don't own the area, and are given extensive privelages because they are allied with the country that does, which they apparently were supremely ungrateful for.

If it really was about keeping the Russians out the US would merely have asked ''hey dudes can we expand our base in Greenland as you already agreed with?'' And then Denmark would say ''ja, det var aftalen'' and we'd all get on with out frigin day. But somehow that wasn't allowed to be the case and instead the filth started to talk about stealing the region.

Not to mention that the Russian navy can't even win a naval war against an enemy without a navy. So what is the US so frantic about?
 

Silvanus

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I haven't excused them, I've explicitly condemned them.
In a throwaway "i suppose i ought to say this" preface, before then spending most of the post minimising what happened. Pretending the killer could have been acting defensively, pretending the liar could have been truthful.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Aww, the poor widdle brownshirts are upset that people don't like them.


Maybe the "thank you for gunning me down in the streets" cards haven't been making it to them?
 
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tstorm823

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In a throwaway "i suppose i ought to say this" preface, before then spending most of the post minimising what happened. Pretending the killer could have been acting defensively, pretending the liar could have been truthful.
And the other multiple times? You really are allergic to being honest, aren't you?
 

Dirty Hipsters

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You're saying someone that researched ICE and reported on ICE doesn't know what they are talking about? It's a lot harder to find articles on ICE in those times because the mainstream media like CNN was doing ride-a-longs with ICE and saying how great they were.
I don't accept your appeal to authority. You made a claim, either back it up with facts, statistics, specific examples, or fuck off. An interview where a man doesn't give any specific evidence is not evidence.
 

Seanchaidh

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Lol.

Double lol, even.

To summarize, ideology is a meaningless term and neutral is whatever Democrats want. Is that really what you're going with?
You're kind of right to laugh, but only because Agema used the term "professionally neutral bureaucrats" rather than "little Eichmanns".
 

Trunkage

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Lol.

Double lol, even.

To summarize, ideology is a meaningless term and neutral is whatever Democrats want. Is that really what you're going with?
The word Democrat is pretty meaningless term too.

Over the last year, a lot of Republicans and conservatives are being called Democrat. These people believe in the rule of law/ constitution and Trump does not. Thus thid makes them Democrats.

So yes, being neutral gets you classed as a Democrat. It's just got nothing to do with the actual Democrats. Trump is just being derogatory to those who like the rule of law or the constitution so he can break the law