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Asita

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No, in actuality, all of those details hammers down the point. You have evidence for all of those things that were done to try to maintain Trump's presidency, including the explicit understanding that the demonstration was encouraged to call on elected representatives to use their legally designated powers. We both know that they don't actually have those powers in Congress, but that was the premise, have a group of people at the Capitol calling for the electors not to be confirmed. Where in any of what you've presented is there even an inkling of a suggestion that Trump or his people the morning of January 6th were planning for people to break into the Capitol to try to install Trump as president by force.
That doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. You’re treating these as good-faith legal processes, but the evidence shows they were pursued despite being known to be unlawful

But to be a bit more specific in response:

You have evidence for all of those things that were done to try to maintain Trump's presidency, including the explicit understanding that the demonstration was encouraged to call on elected representatives to use their legally designated powers. We both know that they don't actually have those powers in Congress, but that was the premise, have a group of people at the Capitol calling for the electors not to be confirmed.
Yes. That's what makes the efforts illegal: Trump et al had been told repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that those powers did not exist, but still insisted that they be used anyway in service of allowing him to retain power through illegal means, given the false appearance of legitimacy through deceptive representation. It's not dissimilar in practice to credit card fraud "seeming" to be legitimate purchases by using a real credit card account (ie, someone else's) and therefore a real transfer of money that was illegal for you to use in that way rather than a floating check for an empty account or counterfeit bills.

Your argument here amounts to "they don't legally have that power so therefore it couldn't have been their intent", which is like saying that Caesar can't have crossed the Rubicon because under law he was not allowed to command an army in Italy-proper. You are literally using the fact that the act was illegal to dispute the idea that it occurred at all, and therefore you argue that the acts in question necessarily constitute "legal avenues" rather than observed pattern of trying to subvert and corrupt those legal avenues to give the efforts the superficial appearance of legitimacy.

See again the Eastman Memos, which laid out that Pence should act to make it a fait accompli and then laid out the planned strategy to use to get the resulting lawsuit dismissed through optics and antipathy for the plaintiffs rather than merit.

And I quote: "The main thing here is that Pence should do this without asking for permission – either from a vote of the joint session or from the Court. Let the other side challenge his actions in court, where Tribe (who in 2001 conceded the President of the Senate might be in charge of counting the votes) and others who would press a lawsuit would have their past position – that these are non-justiciable political questions – thrown back at them, to get the lawsuit dismissed."

For goodness sake, the second memo (itself an extrapolation of Cheesbro's) laid out the intention of using Team Trump's own fake electors plot to create a 'heads I win, tails they lose' scenario through brazen : If the fake electors were accepted, then their votes would fraudulently be accepted for Trump to give him the victory. If they were not accepted, then Pence was to acknowledge their existence, falsely claim that that indicated uncertainty about the validity of the actual electors, and use that as a pretext to discount them from the final tallies to give Trump the appearance of a majority to declare the race for Trump.

That is not a good faith attempt to work within the confines of the legal challenge, that is explicitly and unequivocally an effort to subvert them. They were using the appearance of legal mechanisms to justify something they knew wasn’t legal. Hence again why this is regarded as an illegal effort and well beyond the pale.

Where in any of what you've presented is there even an inkling of a suggestion that Trump or his people the morning of January 6th were planning for people to break into the Capitol to try to install Trump as president by force... You've got all those things in writing for the ways they attempted to legally challenge and overturn the outcome, so where's the memo that told people to attack Congress?
You’re narrowing the claim and then arguing against that narrower version. The argument isn’t that there was a coordinated plan to physically seize power, but that the rally and resulting disruption functioned as pressure on Congress within a broader effort to overturn the result. Those aren’t the same thing.

Never mind that in law and politics, intent is almost never established through something as clear as a memo stating criminal intent. That's like finding that a CEO kept a personal journal in his desk saying "Dear Diary, today I embezzled $50,000...": very much the exception rather than the rule. Intent is almost always inferred through -patterns of behavior, observed pressure on institutions, what people knew would likely happen, and how they acted once it did happen.

You don’t need a memo ordering violence to argue that Trump et al's actions foreseeably led to it and were part of a broader attempt to stay in power.

To put it directly: There were multiple parallel efforts to overturn the result. These included legal challenges, but they also included illegal efforts such as pressure on state officials, fake elector strategies, pressure on the vice president, pressure to make the DOJ release a false claim of fraud and leave the rest of it to Republican Congressmen, to name but a few examples...And the storming of the Capital on January 6 fits into that as pressure on Congress at the moment of certification. The question is not "Was there a written plan to storm the building?". It is was it foreseeable that directing a large, angry crowd at the Capitol during certification could disrupt the process, and was that anticipated disruption useful to the goal?" And given that the pattern shows that this was intended as a pressure tactic? It very much was.
 
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Hades

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Multiple totally inappropriate impeachment attempts
I think you got your impeachments mixed up. There were only two impeachment procedures against Trump and one of those was after jan 6 which thus can't be used to try and justify it.

Besides if the capitol getting stormed to install a false president and hang a vice president isn't the appropriate time to do an impeachment then when is it appropriate? And while Trump trying to blackmail allies into intruding in the American election isn't as immediately existential its still thoroughly appropriate to impeach him for it.

Again. Even the most charitable interpretations don't reflect well on Trump. Perhaps goofy Trump genuinely didn't realize Biden was his political opponent, or that Ukraine was fighting for its existence when he came calling for a favor. But if that's the case wouldn't it be worth deciding it really was just Trump being goofy rather than deeply malicious and disloyal?

Why would Trump feel ire about this? He maliciously abused his power for self gain and then had his cronies in the senate shield him from the consequences. That's a success. He was allowed to try his hand at it without any negative consequences aside from a blow to his already questionable reputation that his cult wouldn't hold against him anyway.


And every single tactic Trump used in 2020-2021 to try to overturn the election, he learned from watching Democrats in the 20 years prior. Every single one.
Every? Can you perhaps cite an example of Clinton pressuring Biden to crown her as an illegitimate president? Or Kerry, or for that matter even Gore calling officials to pressure them into ''finding votes'' without any justification? Can you in fact find any Democratic president personally trying to use their position of power, and the influence of their office to steal an election?
 
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tstorm823

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You’re narrowing the claim and then arguing against that narrower version.
No, I'm disputing a different claim than what you care about. That's not the same thing. If you think the narrow thing I addressed is silly, take it up with Hades and Agema, cause you throwing other arguments at me does not make their's any less delusional.
I think you got your impeachments mixed up. There were only two impeachment procedures against Trump and one of those was after jan 6 which thus can't be used to try and justify it.
Only two were voted through, but they were the 9th and 11th times articles were filed trying to impeach Trump.
Every? Can you perhaps cite an example of Clinton pressuring Biden to crown her as an illegitimate president? Or Kerry, or for that matter even Gore calling officials to pressure them into ''finding votes'' without any justification? Can you in fact find any Democratic president personally trying to use their position of power, and the influence of their office to steal an election?
I would say that Biden did not do that, but there were absolutely people trying to convince him to who did not themselves have the position, and perhaps Democratic presidents specifically are more innocent, but there's always good old Lyndon Johnson to go back to. He cheated elections all sorts of ways.
 

Agema

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If you want to say Trump is responsible for his supporters getting violent on January 6th, that's reasonable, that's not the same as accusing him of setting a mob on Congress.
Yes, he defintely set a mob on Congress. He took a crowd of angry and politically extreme people, riled them up, and told them to go to Congress, make their opinion felt and fight for their country. Do you seriously dispute this?

What you are doing here is creating a straw man by adding in a load of your own assumptions about what I believe. Whether the mob turned violent or not, the intent was pack off a bunch of angry protestors to pressure and intimidate Congress and the VP into supporting Trump's illegal machinations to pervert the election. I have no strong opinion on whether Trump intended them to be violent... but as far as I am concerned, it doesn't really matter. Either way he set a mob on Congress to help pervert the election.

In terms of Trump's intent, I would consider two salient points:

1) Intelligence indicated risk of infiltration or involvement by violent agitators (including groups Trump had previously shown appreciation for; "Proud Boys stand down and stand by"), plus that on general principle these protestors might be expected to lean extreme. Despite these risks, he went ahead, wound them up and set them off anyway: at minimum, deeply reckless.

2) Once the riot started, Trump watched it unfold on TV and, despite requests, refused for hours to intercede and help.

Putting both of these together, Trump had insufficient concern that violence might happen, and little concern when it did. A reasonable conclusion is that whilst he may not have intended violence, he thought it acceptable if it served his ends.

No, in actuality, all of those details hammers down the point. You have evidence for all of those things that were done to try to maintain Trump's presidency, including the explicit understanding that the demonstration was encouraged to call on elected representatives to use their legally designated powers.
You mean use their "legally designated powers"... to overturn the democratic will of the American people?

And as Asita has already pointed out, lots of these scams weren't legally designated powers. You're lying. And then the whole narrative of fraud used to justify it all was refuted, even by Trump's own Attorney General. Unlawfulness based on deliberate lies.

So, that's your delusion. You've got a problem, and I pity you if you can only handle the world by lying to yourself and us about it.
 
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Agema

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And every single tactic Trump used in 2020-2021 to try to overturn the election, he learned from watching Democrats in the 20 years prior. Every single one.
1774004940655.png
Aw, poor diddums. The last resort of the fraudulent debater when they're losing: "No but you!"
 

tstorm823

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And as Asita has already pointed out, lots of these scams weren't legally designated powers. You're lying. And then the whole narrative of fraud used to justify it all was refuted, even by Trump's own Attorney General. Unlawfulness based on deliberate lies.
You quoted this:
No, in actuality, all of those details hammers down the point. You have evidence for all of those things that were done to try to maintain Trump's presidency, including the explicit understanding that the demonstration was encouraged to call on elected representatives to use their legally designated powers.
And literally the next sentence is this:
We both know that they don't actually have those powers in Congress, but that was the premise, have a group of people at the Capitol calling for the electors not to be confirmed.
And then you tell me that I'm lying about it, the truth you think I was hiding is literally the next sentence. Honestly, I think the truth hurts you so much you can't even manage to read it.
 

Agema

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And then you tell me that I'm lying about it, the truth you think I was hiding is literally the next sentence. Honestly, I think the truth hurts you so much you can't even manage to read it.
There is some truth in that. I sometimes skim over what you write because it's so often empty sophistry, misleading cherry-picking or bullshit that it's hard to maintain my attention because you're such a tedious Republican shill.
 
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tstorm823

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There is some truth in that. I sometimes skim over what you write because it's so often empty sophistry, misleading cherry-picking or bullshit that it's hard to maintain my attention because you're such a tedious Republican shill.
If you lived in the US, you would be a Republican.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Thaluikhain

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:rolleyes:

Stop making yourself look like such a 🤡.
Random aside, my dad's family had to decide whether to go to Australia or America after the war, and apparently the branch that went to the US are now gun-toting Republican conspiracy theorists. Fortunately, my great-grandmother saw a US gangster movie the day before she had to decide and chose the other place.
 

Phoenixmgs

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:rolleyes:

Stop making yourself look like such a 🤡.
So you're for all the dumb energy policies the left in Britain is responsible for. The left literally has self-imposed tariffs on you with their asinine energy policies. Britain stopped making a lot of things to reduce carbon emissions in Britain. However, people still want/need/buy said things and now you import them from places like China who puts more carbon in the air than if you keep making that thing in Britain, thus worldwide carbon emissions have increased because of your stupid carbon policies. Now, Britain is taxing all products imported using "dirty" energy and you have essentially tariffed yourselves into products costing more while increasing worldwide carbon emissions. That's the left for ya...

But ya'll b!tch all day about Trumps tariffs.
 

Bedinsis

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If you lived in the US, you would be a Republican.
I find this response rather curious. See, I think Agema was in the wrong in this discussion. Not necessarily in the overall argument, which I have not paid enough attention to to have an informed opinion about, but doubling down on being justified in not paying attention to what the other guy is saying after having missed a key part of it? Not a good look.

This exchange therefore looked to me like you said "Such poor discussion habits. You're like a Republican.". Which I sincerely doubt was your intention.

I also doubt he'd be Republican if he were in the US. Speculating how someone's outlook would've been if transported to a different context always runs into the question of how much new context can be added before the person no longer is the original self, but I believe Agema is a London based educator; both urban voters and educators tend to lean Democrat.
 
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tstorm823

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This exchange therefore looked to me like you said "Such poor discussion habits. You're like a Republican.". Which I sincerely doubt was your intention.
You are correct, that is not my intention. It is, however, quite funny.

My comment is inspired by a much longer standing set of interactions going back years, not from calling me a clown in the moment.
I also doubt he'd be Republican if he were in the US. Speculating how someone's outlook would've been if transported to a different context always runs into the question of how much new context can be added before the person no longer is the original self, but I believe Agema is a London based educator; both urban voters and educators tend to lean Democrat.
Agema is demographically a lot of things that would suggest a left wing party affiliation, and is among the more conservative users on this forum in spite of that. Even most of the people here who would actively defend Republicans have a larger philosophical gap between them and the party.
 

Trunkage

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First, probably don't presume what Hades is thinking, you may not be quite getting the right read here.

But second, I love the implication that out of the hundreds of posts directed at me regularly, that's the first one to make you think someone was arguing in good faith.
I probably would not see it as good faith (or not). Its that there are two different realities. You have alternative facts based upon what the elites tell you. The Dems are following their own elites. Both set of facts arent great... but saying they are equally as bad is stupid

For example, you are complaing about Trump sending a group down to congress to stop the vote is ridiculous. That absolutely what he did

The other side might be using the terms 'sending', 'mob' or 'end democracy' which is inflammatory. We dont have proof that Trump wanted violence or stealing state secrets. All he cared about was getting what he wanted - getting the vote to go his way. Everyone else, on both sides, are collatoral damage

Saying that one side is being inflammatory is legitamate.... but that does not prove that they are wrong. And Trump was way more inflammatory on Jan 6 than anyone else has done to him in return

Now, I know none of matters as you have your own alternative facts. Just because you have facts does not make them real. Just becuase you think someone is delusional or inflammatory does not make it true.

And it would be really cool if you didnt pretend that people who listened to the adminstrations words as crazy. You're punishing people for reapeating what Trump or his adminstration says.
 

tstorm823

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For example, you are complaing about Trump sending a group down to congress to stop the vote is ridiculous. That absolutely what he did

The other side might be using the terms 'sending', 'mob' or 'end democracy' which is inflammatory.
Your examples of them being inflammatory don't even reach what they've actually said. If they said he sent a group to stop the vote, I could let that pass. If they said he wanted to send a mob to end democracy, ending democracy is a hyperbolic read but also vague enough that the person could be basing the statement in reality still. But they're going with things like "had people storm the Capital to install him as President", and that's just left reality behind entirely. Nobody outside of that mob planned for them to go into the building, and there's no evidence that even the people in the mob expected they could install Trump back into office by doing so.
 

Trunkage

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Your examples of them being inflammatory don't even reach what they've actually said. If they said he sent a group to stop the vote, I could let that pass. If they said he wanted to send a mob to end democracy, ending democracy is a hyperbolic read but also vague enough that the person could be basing the statement in reality still. But they're going with things like "had people storm the Capital to install him as President", and that's just left reality behind entirely. Nobody outside of that mob planned for them to go into the building, and there's no evidence that even the people in the mob expected they could install Trump back into office by doing so.
Ah... if you stop people from voting thats literally ending the democraric process. That was the plan. Trump told everyone thats what the plan was and asked them to do it.

The violence is a seperate thing. You could say that Trump didnt ask for violence if you twisted his words the right way. Some of that mob was lead by totally different right wingers. Trump wanted them to enter the house the stop the vote. Ending the democratic process was the plan. It was disorganised and co-opted by fundamentalists when Trump was blocked from joining him

What you are talking about is Trump having a terrible plan. Just because Trump's plan was illegal and disorganised doesnt stop it from being the plan. See also: Tarrifs, DOGE, Trade War, Iran War and ICE. Trump does not even understand what NATO is or what a tarrif is or the term war means. He keeps making up his own definitions and then wonders why the rest of the world does not follow suit. Jan 6 was a mess becuase Trump's plan was stupid, illegal and disorganised. He got a lot of innocent people to break the law
 

Trunkage

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The last administration censored media much more. You all never complain about when the Left does such things, you only complain about the Right.
Go home, Phoenix. Youre drunk

Trump has done more censorship in one year than the Biden did in four. It just doesnt effect you so you are for it