US 2024 Presidential Election

[Casual Shinji]

And not just Trump personally.

The American people as a whole has shown that they can reelect someone like him. After having witnessed his first term, after the coup attempt and after his many convictions.

Annd the American institutions have shown that all those touted checks and balances are worth nothing and that the rule of law is worth nothing there.

The lack of outrage about all the many scandals and crimes also shows that the Americans as a whole don't care all that much.

Hence why all this current talk of "maga regret" and Trump voters leaving in droves means very little to me. Even if true they can still fuck off and burn in Hell. Oh, you feel you made a mistake voting for the most openly fascistic president America has ever seen - a convicted criminal, a rapist, who tried to commit a coup - and are now trying to make amends? Cool, you can still eat shit forever.

And that's even if I believe them, which I don't. None of their 'Trump is bad now' rhetoric will mean a fucking thing until they're in the voting booth, at which point they're going to vote for him again anyway.

After the 2024 election it's clear a lot of Americans (and honestly Westerners in general, I mean look at Europe) REALLY like nazi shit.

 

[Hades]

Is this delusion, or just wishful thinking?

I dunno. Historically the phrase ''I want to steal your land now join me in this senseless war I started while I unfairly tarrif and threaten you'' isn't ideal for soft power. Whether Trump assaulted America's soft power with an axe isn't really a question. The real question is whether its permanent. Considering the population of the US proved as untrustworthy as its leaders its likely going to be long lasting atleast.

And not just Trump personally.

The American people as a whole has shown that they can reelect someone like him. After having witnessed his first term, after the coup attempt and after his many convictions.

Annd the American institutions have shown that all those touted checks and balances are worth nothing and that the rule of law is worth nothing there.

The lack of outrage about all the many scandals and crimes also shows that the Americans as a whole don't care all that much.

Indeed. It shows that aside from a lot of US politicians being rotten and treasonus, the population of the US can also at any time, and without any reason inflict these traitors on us without themselves even gaining anything from it. Even when Trump is gone there's nothing to suggest the US electorate won't force a third extremely hostile US government on us.

2016 might have been a mistake or a glitch, but now its clear the US voters are completely untrustworthy.

 

[Hades]

Hence why all this current talk of "maga regret" and Trump voters leaving in droves means very little to me. Even if true they can still fuck off and burn in Hell. Oh, you feel you made a mistake voting for the most openly fascistic president America has ever seen - a convicted criminal, a rapist, who tried to commit a coup - and are now trying to make amends? Cool, you can still eat shit forever.

Indeed. Everything except maybe Trump's war hunger was well known. Everyone knew what Trump was and what was at stake. So what exactly are they regretting? Are they regretting the things they knowingly decided to vote for? If they dissaprove so much then why did they knowingly vote for it?

Their regret is pointless. They shouldn't have regretted it after the fact, but prevented it by voting against Trump.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Indeed. Everything except maybe Trump's war hunger was well known. Everyone knew what Trump was and what was at stake. So what exactly are they regretting? Are they regretting the things they knowingly decided to vote for? If they dissaprove so much then why did they knowingly vote for it?

Their regret is pointless. They shouldn't have regretted it after the fact, but prevented it by voting against Trump.

One suspects they regret that consequences apply to them, rather than just Them, which isn't exactly as much of a turn around as one might hope.

 

[Agema]

you don't get a safe, prosperous and powerful Gondor by fusing it with Mordor.

Russia is against everything European civilization stands for. Its against every protection, freedom and rights that our societies have. We'd have gained nothing from taking them on board. Rather than make us more powerful they'd just have dragged us down to their barbaric level.

Agreed.

To see what Putin thinks and does now gives us a crystal clear view of the mindset of Russia's leaders. It is inconceivable that Russia would not have abused EU membership to empire build within the EU, completely disrupting the functioning of the EU should other EU countries have tried to stop it. Imagine how Orban behaves now, except from a country with about a quarter of the EU's population and MEPs.

Russia could have travelled in a different direction 20 years ago towards a more liberal democracy, but instead it got taken over by a sociopathic, authoritarian irredentist and so didn't. Thus here we are.

 

[Agema]

Hence why all this current talk of "maga regret" and Trump voters leaving in droves means very little to me.

For a start, they aren't leaving in droves.

For all the talk about MAGA who oppose the USA being "world police" and constant foreign interventions, it turns out they're a lot fewer than the the noise they made, and it's a red line for almost none of them. Sure, they might grumble and disapprove, but they'll carry on backing Trump all the same. And when the next election comes around, they'll stick a cross on the (R) box as readily as ever.

They were won through a vibe of hating immigrants, transgender, gays, liberals, feminism, non-whites. A nostalgia for the days when straight, white, manly men unequivocally were the norm, the top of the heap, occupying nearly all positions of power in politics, business, media, etc. As long as Trump represents that, they'll vote for him. The only thing likely to break the faith of many of them is if the economy derails.

 

[tstorm823]

Trump has shredded or pulled the US out of many international agreements including the original Iran Nuclear Deal and trade agreements, some of which were signed by him during his first term.

For soft power to work, people need to be able to trust you'll keep your word. Trump (and therefore the people who helped put him in power) have destroyed this.

That's not soft power you're describing, that's hard power. The Iran Nuclear Deal was not a soft power exercise, that sort of negotiated exchange is still hard power. Soft power is where you can convince people to do things your way for their benefit, or by following your example, or by trying to please you and stay in your good graces.

It has been decades since European governments cared about US soft power directly. Trump lost little to nothing in Europe cause there was little to nothing there to lose. When is the last time you can think of a country in Europe, or at least western Europe, doing something because America asked nicely? No, that relationship goes the other way, Europe sends their messages hoping the US will do what they want based on just whether they smile or frown.

US soft power isn't on display there, it's the rest of the world that actively wants to collaborate with us, many of whom are not particularly fond of places like Iran.

And then also, the UN is an appendage of the US that dissolves without US hard power, and every soft power effect of the UN is US soft power, laundered through a second organization so that other countries can pretend they're still sticking it to the US.

 

[Agema]

That's not soft power you're describing, that's hard power.

As so often is the case, you are just wrong.

The classic original definition was that getting other countries to do what you want requires a) coercion, b) payment, c) attraction: (a) and (b) are hard power, and (c) is soft. Trust matters to all, but it's particularly important to (c), which includes diplomatic efforts and foreign policy, economic and cultural factors, etc. Trust matters to (a) mostly just that the threat/force is credible; to (b) it matters relatively little because if one side does not honour the transaction the other side simply does not either; for (c), however, lack of trust easily collapses persuasion.

Treaty negotiations may - and frequently do - involve both hard and soft power. The original Obama-era nuclear treaty with Iran was a mix of both: it involved some hard power (re. sanctions), but it was also a major soft power operation by trying to work with Iran, a fair system of verification, a sense of potential mutual benefit, etc. for which trust was important. (Of course Trump blew it up.)

It has been decades since European governments cared about US soft power directly. Trump lost little to nothing in Europe cause there was little to nothing there to lose. When is the last time you can think of a country in Europe, or at least western Europe, doing something because America asked nicely?.

Do you mean apart from European countries sending their people to die for the USA's ill-advised military adventures within the last generation, inciting additional terrorist reprisals that killed hundreds of civilians? After all, they weren't obliged by treaty, threatened, or paid to do so.

That's modern Republicanism I guess: greedy, dishonourable, ignorant and drowning in their cult of victimhood.

 

[Hades]

It has been decades since European governments cared about US soft power directly. Trump lost little to nothing in Europe cause there was little to nothing there to lose. When is the last time you can think of a country in Europe, or at least western Europe, doing something because America asked nicely? No, that relationship goes the other way, Europe sends their messages hoping the US will do what they want based on just whether they smile or frown

Pretty sure its Europe that went to war for the US, while the US was caught colluding with Europe's enemies when Europe was the one under threat. And as for Europe going to war for the US, those complete ingrates repaid us by trying to steal our land.

 

[tstorm823]

Do you mean apart from European countries sending their people to die for the USA's ill-advised military adventures within the last generation, inciting additional terrorist reprisals that killed hundreds of civilians? After all, they weren't obliged by treaty, threatened, or paid to do so.

Pretty sure its Europe that went to war for the US, while the US was caught colluding with Europe's enemies when Europe was the one under threat. And as for Europe going to war for the US, those complete ingrates repaid us by trying to steal our land.

Really not getting the hard power vs soft power distinction. You hear all the time "only the US has ever used article so-and-so of NATO." Exactly, that's hard power. Which Europe doesn't use, because the US hasn't needed to be coerced or strong-armed into global participation. That's not our soft power on you, that's your soft power on us.

 

[Agema]

Really not getting the hard power vs soft power distinction. You hear all the time "only the US has ever used article so-and-so of NATO."

You mean Article 5, which is the self-defence clause that requires members to support an attacked member. This has been invoked the grand total of once: in response to 9/11. (Also somewhat controversial, on the grounds it was a non-state terrorist attack.) It's not really important in this context.

NATO is heavily built on soft power principles. For instance, Article 2:

"The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them. "

So, an alliance of friendly and peaceful international relations based on shared principles of free institutions, stability, well-being, and economic harmony. States can work on those shared values, peace, economic ties and stability with diplomacy and co-operation and trade and cultural exchange. No states are forced to join or forced to stay in it, and if countries support one another, it's not a transaction where they send a bill for the cost of military support once the job's done. Soft power, eh?

Alternatively, you can scream like a baby about how exploited you are, threaten other countries with crippling tariffs, refuse to honour your treaty obligations unless they pay you, undermine their stability by promoting far right extremists, and demand they hand over Greenland on pain of sanctions or invasion, etc.

 

[Casual Shinji]

For a start, they aren't leaving in droves.

For all the talk about MAGA who oppose the USA being "world police" and constant foreign interventions, it turns out they're a lot fewer than the the noise they made, and it's a red line for almost none of them. Sure, they might grumble and disapprove, but they'll carry on backing Trump all the same. And when the next election comes around, they'll stick a cross on the (R) box as readily as ever.

They were won through a vibe of hating immigrants, transgender, gays, liberals, feminism, non-whites. A nostalgia for the days when straight, white, manly men unequivocally were the norm, the top of the heap, occupying nearly all positions of power in politics, business, media, etc. As long as Trump represents that, they'll vote for him. The only thing likely to break the faith of many of them is if the economy derails.

I honestly don't think anything will break that faith in Trump. The faith is likely to break them though. I mean, it already is - A lot of americans voted for their own deportation, and would probably do so again if given the chance.

It's a combination of honest-to-god faith, and the Right succesfully labeling truth and expertise as the enemy. That and early 2010 internet edgey troll humor having brain-rotted people's moral compass.

 

[BrawlMan]

I didn't even know Nick Cannon is a Trump supporter. Nick supporting the guy is really hypocritical, and I want nothing to do with him either now.

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[BrawlMan]

honestly don't think anything will break that faith in Trump. The faith is likely to break them though. I mean, it already is - A lot of americans voted for their own deportation, and would probably do so again if given the chance.

If they wanna die that badly, then they could just off themselves and leave everyone else out of it. I don't advocate for suicide, but if the people who got deported on their own by voting for the biatch, and are still willing to vote for this guy, they are completely hopeless and not worth saving. Most of them are worth it to begin with, since they support nazism and fascism that badly, unless it's happening to them.

 

[Agema]

I honestly don't think anything will break that faith in Trump. The faith is likely to break them though. I mean, it already is - A lot of americans voted for their own deportation, and would probably do so again if given the chance.

Sure. This is how I think about the rust belt. MAGA's sense of nostalgia includes all those places that once had mines and factories, but now poverty. Of course they would dream of the days when their towns were vibrant, with well paid jobs, shops on the high street, etc. Of course they loved it when Trump said he'd force those factories to come back.

Those factories aren't coming back.

They signed up to a vision that will never occur. Eventually, they will realise and probably be furious, but by that time all the cynical politicians who hoodwinked them will be retired or dead.

 

[BrawlMan]

They signed up to a vision that will never occur. Eventually, they will realise and probably be furious, but by that time all the cynical politicians who hoodwinked them will be retired or dead.

Sucks to be them. Theology, the only thing they get from me, is a Double Dragon style knee bash to the face.

 

[Agema]

Pretty sure its Europe that went to war for the US, while the US was caught colluding with Europe's enemies when Europe was the one under threat. And as for Europe going to war for the US, those complete ingrates repaid us by trying to steal our land.

Starmer calls for ‘ambitious’ new UK-EU ties as Trump threatens to quit Nato

PM to focus on European defence and economic partnership for ‘dangerous world’, in pivot away from US

www.theguardian.com

Well, maybe we need to thank Trump for assisting with European unity, even if it was not his intention?

Ultimately, Brexit relied on an idea that the UK could somehow sit between the EU and the USA. But now Trump is alienating the British public and driving a schism between the USA and Europe, it's driving the UK to realign towards the EU. Formally rejoining the EU might take a lot longer, but I'm overjoyed we're looking more like we're on our way back.

 

[Satinavian]

Well, maybe we need to thank Trump for assisting with European unity, even if it was not his intention?

Oh, definitively.

However nothing helped boost the cohesion of the rest-EU more than the mess of Brexit. Anyway, i hope you will be back eventually.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I think you really missed the mark with your moralizing here by using San Francisco as an example.

San Francisco, a place with shitloads of tax revenue, tons of rich people who live there, who could afford to move anywhere in the country but choose San Fransisco.

You know, San Francisco, one of the tech hubs of America.

San Francisco, literally the second wealthiest city in the US.

I only said San Fransisco is worse at helping the homeless than Houston. Everything else I said, I made the comparison to what is happening in Oakland right now.

 

[BrawlMan]

Good. I hope the Religious Right keep losing like they already are.
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