US 2024 Presidential Election

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Phoenixmgs

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Well firstly because the Democrats aren’t the ultra welcoming coombaya singing party you seem to believe they are. So brownshirts aren’t an “equal and opposite” reaction

There are in fact practically no mainstream party that even are those coombaya singing parties. All mainline parties in about every country wants to limit migration. What’s up for debate is whether the migrants should be treated as subhuman vermin or not.

But ultimately not being Maga level hostile to brown people does not deserve violent brownshirts as a reaction. Especially not if they also kill people
What I would do as president is several more things, because things have changed. I would, in fact, make sure that there is -- we immediately surge to the border. All those people who are seeking asylum, they deserve to be heard. That's who we are. We're a nation who says, if you want to flee, and you're freeing oppression, you should come. - Biden


And...
1776719394877.png

How don't you expect an equal and opposite reaction to happen in response to that?
 
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Trunkage

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Being on either spectrum of immigration is bad.


I'm saying that if Biden didn't open the borders like he did, you wouldn't have ICE raids during Trump v2.
This is like Israel bombing the fuck out of Gaza

Yes, Israel, Im fine if you go after Hamas. No Israel, none of what you are doing is going after Hamas. Hamas is a smokescreen to do a genocide

You can be as anti-immigration as you want. What ICE has very little to do with reducing immigration. Obama beats Trump v2 in numbers of deportation EVERY SINGLE WEEK. There wasnt any complaints because he did it legally. Also, there just arent as many illegals as Trump pretends. 'Biden let them in' is about as true as 'They're eating the dogs. They're eating the cats.'

ICE isnt there for the immigrants. Trump is getting you to justify poliitical violence so he can do more later. Congratulations
 

Trunkage

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Didn't Trump promise to end DEI? Smh
DEI is specifically there to counter the Spoils system - hiring your buddies and cronies and your family

As can be seen by Trump's picks in cabinet, quality is NOT requirement. Loyalty is. You can only agree with Trump. Thinking is bad and evil
 
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Trunkage

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Guys, I have a confession to make..... I voted for Trump in 2024.

Before you guys come at me with pitchforks and torches, hear me out;

I didn't like Trump's first term back in 2016. And despite vowing to never do so, I voted someone from Democrats, Biden, back in 2020.

At first he seemed alright, but then I begin to question his lack of action; the lukeworm responses to southern borders, Israel-Hamas conflic, Ukraine-Russia conflict, etc. And let's also not forget many times he stuttered, facing and talking to an empty space, and his terrible handling of the US economy.

So in 2024, despite half of me screaming at me, I voted for Trump. All the promises and ptich that Kamala Harris came up with sounded worse.

.....To say it is one of the worst decisions in my life, something that might haunt me for the rest of it would be an understatement. WTF was I thinking?

I genuinely thought things couldn't get any worse. I couldn't have anticipated the ICE raids, the Israel-Iran conflict, and any other BS Trump is pulling.

That twitter art made me bang my head against the wall for like 5 min.

I am trying to take solace and convince myself that I wasn't the only one who got blindsided. And many of the Trump voters are thinking the same thing right now (save for those delusional far-right folks).

Okay, now you guys may throw those tomatoes and eggs at me; I kinda deserve it
I mean, it was a pick between a genocidal maniac and a fascist genocidal maniac

This is a joke. But also not really. It also shows how much I was underplaying how bad Trump is

The ICE stuff did not suprise me. He tried to do this in v1. He just had people around him trying to do this legally.

He said he was going to do ICE raids during the last election and claimed that many citizens are actually illegal immigrants.

When you talk about things getting worse... Trump hasnt really gotten started yet....

Edit: Admitting a mistake is more than most can do on here. Also, what did you learn?
 

Schadrach

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and take a lot of maintenance.
As someone whose state capitol has a golden dome, yes, yes it does.

will forever be associated with him.
Ideally as the narcissist we had to strip the name of off of everything after his cult breaks down in the absence of Dear Leader. I don't think Vance or any of the others can hold them together in his passing, so long as he doesn't somehow die a martyr.

I couldn't have anticipated the ICE raids, the Israel-Iran conflict, and any other BS Trump is pulling.
Really? The ICE stuff is the most predictable thing Trump has done in two terms aside from enrich himself.

My money is that it's going to be an AI Trump reading the bible. Trump can barely read and the bible has a lot of names and words that are difficult to pronounce if you've never seen them before, and we all know that Trump has never opened a bible.
Earpiece feeding him what to say would fix that without needing AI. Then people could watch him live. Would hide it better when he loses his place without him launching into a rambling digression mid verse.

Otherwise, it might be the first time his follower actually hear the bible, wonder if they'll call it woke?
Depends on which bits he reads.
 
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Agema

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What ICE has very little to do with reducing immigration.
Pretty much, yes.

Immigration is a bit like a force of nature. People are going to come. If people want better opportunities than they're getting, then they're going to move to a better place. If their country collapses into or is turned into a hellscape (Syria, Venezuela, etc.) they're going to leave in droves. And if your country offers prospects, jobs etc. and can reasonably be travelled to, then a fair chunk are going to come to your country.

So if your country is a remotely attractive place to be, immigrants are coming. And by attractive, we mean that someone's going to slap a wad of notes good enough for them to live on at the end of a working week. You're not going to stop them coming with shitty welfare, shitty health and brutal policing. That was what their home country was like, you're not going to match the awfulness of the place they came from.

And that's really the essence of it. If you want to stop immigrants, what you need is a genuinely horrible country. But you don't want to live in a horrible country, do you? If you did, you'd... emigrate!

* * *

The US immigration surge 2020-2023 was... an anomaly? Covid happened. It fucked everyone's economy and made things worse in a load of South and Central American countries so inspired people to migrate. At the same time, as Covid eased, the US economy kicked back into action and caused a huge demand for labour... including immigrant labour. Internet access massively improved in the 2010 in Latin America, which meant lots of people could look up how to get to the USA. And finally, criminal gangs spent time around this period preparing routes and logistics to transport people to USA. Plus, you also need to bear in mind that Trump made it all but impossible for people from many countries to come to the USA legally: that increases illegal immigration. Add all this together, immigration surge.

So at this point, basically you can try to deal with them as normal, or you can man the border with troops and shoot everyone who tries to cross illegally. I don't mean that literally, I mean all the processes we have to deal with illegal immigrants assume typical standards of humane and lawful treatment, and you can instead just use inhumane processes without legal rights. When people criticise Biden for his weakness on the southern border, what it means is that Biden tried to expand the existing systems to deal with illegal immigration, plus some other measures again mostly within those principle. These mostly functioned: they expanded to cope with the numbers and at a proportional level, did about as well as before. But of course lots more illegals arrived: you keep the proportion of illegals who get in the same, then the more illegals arrive, the more get through in absolute numbers.

So the Trump-Republican narrative is that the Democrats lost control of the southern border. But how do you propose to deal with this, if you think Biden failed?

Firstly, you can spend staggering, eye-watering sums of money and bleed your people in taxes to pay for masses more personnel, systems, etc to manage it. Secondly, just start shooting immigrants (not necessarily literally, as above). However, the USA wouldn't tolerate either (although Trump is working as much of the latter as he can get away with). Therefore, once you've made a load of noise that immigration is out of control, but the government has already used pretty much all reasonable levers available to it, what's left? And what's left are stupid, cruel and pointless show policies.

In Trump 1, it was the border wall, which Congress rightfully sort of neglected into defeat. In Trump 2, it's ICE. It's not really doing anything about illegal immigration or stopping people coming (that already dropped whilst Biden was in charge, just because circumstances became much less favourable for immigration). It's just about victimising immigrants. For instance as we are seeing, a lot of this isn't about removing illegals, it's about stripping legal immigrants of their right to stay and kicking them out.

This may be legal, but on a human level, it is cruel. People travelled to the USA often in good faith, were allowed to stay, and now Trump's just going to forcibly uproot them and their families (again!), with all those losses and disruption. ICE are storming through Democrat cities shooting US citizens mostly to satisfy the bloodlust of authoritarian right-wingers. They tend to have a hard-on for law and order and heavy enforcement, xenophobia, and sticking it to the libs. This is performative cruelty and strong-arming, and they love it. Plenty of Republicans also aren't xenophobic, right-wing authoritarians, and I suspect quite a few are regretting their choices.
 
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Hades

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What I would do as president is several more things, because things have changed. I would, in fact, make sure that there is -- we immediately surge to the border. All those people who are seeking asylum, they deserve to be heard. That's who we are. We're a nation who says, if you want to flee, and you're freeing oppression, you should come. - Biden
“Deserve to be heard” I hear not “deserve to gain permanent residence. Besides words in debates aren’t meaningful

What is meaningful is that Biden(and Obama) met their deportation numbers plenty. What’s also meaningful that when Democrats pushed for strict bills it was Trump who forbade it from coming to pass since he wanted to campaign on migration.

Which is typical for the far right. They don’t care about fixing migration but by campaigning on it.
 

Agema

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He did not state Pulp Fiction anywhere, so it is possible that he is ignorant of that connection, but he was quoting the variation the rescue team made while honoring them. The "Hegseth quoted Pulp Fiction thinking it was the Bible" narrative is approximately as real as when they said JD Vance has sex with couches.
Meiam didn't say Hegseth thought it was the Bible, just that it was a fake Bible passage adapted via Pulp Fiction, which is true.

Stop making up straw men to justify your own obsessions.
 

Phoenixmgs

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This is like Israel bombing the fuck out of Gaza

Yes, Israel, Im fine if you go after Hamas. No Israel, none of what you are doing is going after Hamas. Hamas is a smokescreen to do a genocide

You can be as anti-immigration as you want. What ICE has very little to do with reducing immigration. Obama beats Trump v2 in numbers of deportation EVERY SINGLE WEEK. There wasnt any complaints because he did it legally. Also, there just arent as many illegals as Trump pretends. 'Biden let them in' is about as true as 'They're eating the dogs. They're eating the cats.'

ICE isnt there for the immigrants. Trump is getting you to justify poliitical violence so he can do more later. Congratulations
I literally posted a New York Times article (who lean left btw) with government data showing the immigration surge was the highest in US history during Biden and that's based on percentages, not sheer numbers (so it's not because there's just more people now than 100+ years ago).

ICE is not doing a fucking genocide. That is not comparable at all.

“Deserve to be heard” I hear not “deserve to gain permanent residence. Besides words in debates aren’t meaningful

What is meaningful is that Biden(and Obama) met their deportation numbers plenty. What’s also meaningful that when Democrats pushed for strict bills it was Trump who forbade it from coming to pass since he wanted to campaign on migration.

Which is typical for the far right. They don’t care about fixing migration but by campaigning on it.
I literally gave you the numbers via the New York Times article...
 

FakeSympathy

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I mean, it was a pick between a genocidal maniac and a fascist genocidal maniac

This is a joke. But also not really. It also shows how much I was underplaying how bad Trump is

The ICE stuff did not suprise me. He tried to do this in v1. He just had people around him trying to do this legally.

He said he was going to do ICE raids during the last election and claimed that many citizens are actually illegal immigrants.

When you talk about things getting worse... Trump hasnt really gotten started yet....

Edit: Admitting a mistake is more than most can do on here. Also, what did you learn?
I didn't think it could get worse. I mean the whole "I will build a wall between the US and Mexico and Mexico will pay for it" thing did start IIRC, but it never got completed. I just figured Trump was one of those politicians who only do half-ass jobs on what they promised to do. I genuinely thought he wasn't gonna follow through with the ICE thing on his 2nd term.

I guess I learned a few things, looking back:
  1. I wasn't the only one who voted for Trump, and there are many people like me who were kinda force to choose between a rock and a hard place. Although I do feel I might've regretted my decision had Kamala Harris won. I shouldn't feel too bad about my choice since everyone has one or two terrible decisions that they will regret for the rest of their lives
    1. On a side note, due to the electoral college my vote probably didn't mean much in my State; It was pretty much a democrat state during the election
  2. ....Maybe I should give democrats another chance. I have plenty of bone to pick with Obama, but I think he did a pretty good job; there was also JFK, who again didn't always make the right decisions, but he also did plenty of good things
  3. IMHO, we need more younger candidates. I feel both Biden and Trump are stuck in their outdated, delusional, and honestly kinda senile ideologies.
 
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Agema

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  1. IMHO, we need more younger candidates. I feel both Biden and Trump are stuck in their outdated, delusional, and honestly kinda senile ideologies.
I fear if there is one problem with a low birth rate, it's that it increases the average age of the population - which increases the political power of crusty oldsters whose sensibilities are perhaps stuck well in the past.

I read this piece. I don't necessarily put a huge amount of weight on it, but it's certainly interesting. About 35 years ago, Trump's vision of the world stopped developing, and so now we're subjected to rulership by a guy who wishes it was the 80s again.

I particularly like the quick reflection that maybe it was because the 90s was when loads of stuff went to shit for Trump (divorce, bankruptcies etc.). So he dreams back to an era before he endured humiliations and mockery.
 

Xprimentyl

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I didn't think it could get worse. I mean the whole "I will build a wall between US and Mexico and Mexico will pay for it" thing did start IIRC, but it never got completed. I just figured Trump was one of those policticians who only do half-ass jobs on what they promised to do. I genuinely thought he wasn't gonna follow through with the ICE thing on his 2nd term.
Trump is not a politician; he is a "businessman," and a bad one at that. He lacks basically everything necessary to be an actual politician, namely the tact and couth that, for better or worse, allows the mechanisms of effective politics to work. Without engaging in a heated back-and-forth in which you might feel the need to defend yourself, may I ask why exactly you voted for Trump? What about his character led you to believe anything that comes out of his mouth? Did you honestly see a viable leader of the free world in him? Policy aside, what about him (outside of the words he knew some people wanted to hear) gave you confidence he was the lesser of two evils? I know neither choice was necessarily ideal, but when you pit a rote politician against a con man, what made you put your faith in the latter?
 
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FakeSympathy

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Trump is not a politician; he is a "businessman," and a bad one at that. He lacks basically everything necessary to be an actual politician, namely the tact and couth that, for better or worse, allows the mechanisms of effective politics to work. Without engaging in a heated back-and-forth in which you might feel the need to defend yourself, may I ask why exactly you voted for Trump? What about his character led you to believe anything that comes out of his mouth? Did you honestly see a viable leader of the free world in him? Policy aside, what about him (outside of the words he knew some people wanted to hear) gave you confidence he was the lesser of two evils? I know neither choice was necessarily ideal, but when you pit a rote politician against a con man, what made you put your faith in the latter?
IDK, I guess it was a combination of my disdain for the democratic part at the time, me wanting to stay away from liberal agendas, and despite Trump being a con man, he actually took actions instead of the half-ass promises.

Once again, I feel so stupid about myself at the time, and I am regretting that decision. The best thing I can do is live with the consequences. And I will leave it at that
 

Hades

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IDK, I guess it was a combination of my disdain for the democratic part at the time, me wanting to stay away from liberal agendas, and despite Trump being a con man, he actually took actions instead of the half-ass promises.

Once again, I feel so stupid about myself at the time, and I am regretting that decision. The best thing I can do is live with the consequences. And I will leave it at that
Out of curiosity what did you think of Trump and that freak Vance’s rampant Europhobia at the time,and did the idea of the filth betraying us to the Russians ever factor in the decision?

Or weren’t we on the agenda at all?
 
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BrawlMan

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man, he actually took actions instead of the half-ass promises.
Yeah, actions to help only himself. Whatever actions he did have were almost always performative or hiding behind worse intentions and the actual negative consequences. That's how he got the Latinos and thosee Arabs, where he promised to end the war in Gaza, and then do shit and then, immediately screwing them over when they were no use of him anymore. Once again, what do you all think was going to happen? Especially when it made it clear, he never liked any people, not him from the start, or those of different ethnicities and genders, unless they're constantly sucking his dick.

I am glad you are able to admit you were wrong, nut now the time for action and not self pity. We don't have time for that. So I suggest you toughen up and fight back any way you can. Help those that actually need it, and deserve it. Spread the word.

 
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Xprimentyl

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IDK, I guess it was a combination of my disdain for the democratic part at the time, me wanting to stay away from liberal agendas, and despite Trump being a con man, he actually took actions instead of the half-ass promises.

Once again, I feel so stupid about myself at the time, and I am regretting that decision. The best thing I can do is live with the consequences. And I will leave it at that
I've heard this sentiment more times than I care to have, "he does stuff." Any consideration for what he actually "does?" What exactly did he make so good on? The economy? International policy/relations? All those wars he "ended," and never mind the "no new wars" which was a nice chunk of his stump speech...

I understand that in a stagnant political climate where a lot of people only say what they're "going to do," a blowhard who simply acts out by doing anything he pleases might sound refreshing or differentiate himself from the competition, but a man of action is not defacto a man of GOOD man of action. Impulsivity is not generally a positive characteristic, but if people simply voted for Trump because he lacks impulse control and they saw that as "doing anything is better than contemplating, restraining, reading the room, and acting accordingly," then I feel a lot of votes were wasted, and many of those voters are simply doubling down because regret makes them look weak, and their god-king would have them believe even the illusion of strength is most important.

Look what his actions have wrought upon us. We're the laughing stock of the world, and beyond that, we're worse off ourselves: gas prices will go down? They've gone up. Grocery prices will come down? They've gone up. No new wars? Iran was supposed to be set back into the nuclear Stone Age with those strikes last year, yet we HAD to go to war because suddenly their nuclear threat is immanent? He's not made good on a single, substantive thing he's said. Aren't you an immigrant yourself? About the only thing he's done is normalize nationalism, making racism and xenophobia acceptable in the eyes of Americans who often themselves have only need to go back a generation or two to find immigrant ancestry.
 

tstorm823

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what's left are stupid, cruel and pointless show policies.
Showing is the point. At no point under any recent administration was "just show up and they'll let you stay" the legal standard. There are so many people now with deportation orders against them because they were making asylum claims that never had a chance to pass under the belief they'd just be left in the country anyways. Showing that isn't the case deters more people from trying. It's not stupid or cruel, if you don't enforce the law people won't even try to follow it.
 

tstorm823

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Meiam didn't say Hegseth thought it was the Bible, just that it was a fake Bible passage adapted via Pulp Fiction, which is true.

Stop making up straw men to justify your own obsessions.
A) I didn't say Meiam said that Hegseth thought it was the Bible. I was acknowledging an idea that is being passed around in general.
B) Meiam didn't say it was adapted via Pulp Fiction, but rather said "quoted Pulp Fiction", which is incorrect. I provided more and more accurate information.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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IDK, I guess it was a combination of my disdain for the democratic part at the time, me wanting to stay away from liberal agendas, and despite Trump being a con man, he actually took actions instead of the half-ass promises.

Once again, I feel so stupid about myself at the time, and I am regretting that decision. The best thing I can do is live with the consequences. And I will leave it at that
What exactly were the actions that Trump took during his first term that convinced you that he's a doer? His entire first term was literally nothing but half-assed promises. The only thing he actually accomplished was passing a tax cut for the rich. What policies did he put in place that you liked? What legislation did he get passed?