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Phoenixmgs

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Fear mongering about asylum seeking that tries to salvage your bullshit about the usage of CBP One as a causative factor of the spike at the border by vaguely pointing at the concept of 'asylum fraud', implicitly grossly exaggerating its prevalence.

The claim of "a lot of asylum fraud" is the result of misrepresnting rejected asylum claims (anywhere from 20%-50%) with asylum fraud.

For context: A 2015 Government Accountability Office report found that between fiscal years 2010 and 2014, asylum claims terminated by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services because of fraud fell from 103 to 34. For comparison, the agency granted more than 76,000 asylum claims during that time.

Claims that "there is a lot of asylum fraud" are unsubstantiated by available data, and often rest on the mistaken assumption that the overall rate of rejections is indicative of the rate of fraud.



Once again, nobody gives a shit that you think what you said "makes perfect logical sense".

We are not talking about some hypothetical, some unknown that we have to suss out, nor are we talking about something up for debate. We are talking about what the law of the land is.

And you have been told. You specifically asked for and have been shown the case law supporting it. And you are still dismissing it out of hand explicitly because it doesn't match your presumption, and even seem to be going out of your way to misunderstand what you're told.

Since it feels like I have to repeat myself:

You keep responding as though I claimed "ICE detainers are inherently unconstitutional."​
I did not.​
What I said is that ICE detainers alone are often insufficient legal basis to continue holding someone after lawful state/local custody ends.​
That distinction matters.​
An ICE detainer is a request from ICE asking a local jail to continue holding someone so ICE can assume custody. Courts have repeatedly ruled that if a jail holds someone past their lawful release time solely because of that request, without independent probable cause or a judicial warrant, that can violate the Fourth Amendment.​
This is not a fringe claim. It is established case law.​

Which ties back to what I was telling you pages ago:

what is presented as "not honoring ICE detainers is - as I already said but you evidently failed to read - declining to hold people past their release date solely for ICE unless there’s a judicial warrant. (As without a judicial warrant that's a Fourth Amendment violation, which is to say against the law).​


So once again: You are wrong. That is not a negotiable point. You can either accept that like an adult and move on, or you can continue to go "nuh-uh" like a petulant child.
Funny that you cite numbers that are from the period of time no one is arguing about asylum fraud.

So you are against a convicted criminal being transferred to DHS to be removed from the country if they are not supposed to be here? This is another 80/20 issue (probably like 99/1) that the vast majority of people would agree with. And with a democracy, you should do what the majority wants to be done, it's not that complicated.

Again, ICE DOES NOT USE THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM AT ALL. Thus, they will never have a judicial warrant. Either all ICE detainers are unconstitutional or none of them are. The fact that ICE detainers are constantly issued everyday and also honored everyday means that it is not established case law.
 

Asita

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The first source is an opinion piece that relies heavily on insinuation and emotionally loaded framing while providing no evidentiary support for the broader conclusions it wants the reader to draw.

The Washington Times article similarly relies on headline framing that implies a far broader phenomenon than the article itself substantiates. The actual figure cited is 60 investigated cases involving allegedly fraudulent documentation.

To give you a sense of how small that is on scale, the same article notes that there were more than 5.4 million active immigration cases (not fraud cases, general cases) awaiting final adjudication. That's 0.0011%. Even taking the article entirely at face value, the number cited does not remotely support the implication that fraudulent asylum claims are occurring at some massive or system-defining scale.

Ironically, the actual figures supplied by your own sources are broadly consistent with the point I was making earlier: claims of rampant asylum fraud are frequently asserted far more strongly than the available evidence supports.


So you are against a convicted criminal being transferred to DHS to be removed from the country if they are not supposed to be here? This is another 80/20 issue (probably like 99/1) that the vast majority of people would agree with. And with a democracy, you should do what the majority wants to be done, it's not that complicated.
That is not the question being discussed.

This is not a debate about whether convicted criminals should be removed or what most people prefer policy-wise. It is a question of what legal authority exists for continued detention after release, and what courts have held about ICE detainers and administrative warrants.

Appeals to popularity and policy preferences do not answer that legal question.


Again, ICE DOES NOT USE THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM AT ALL. Thus, they will never have a judicial warrant. Either all ICE detainers are unconstitutional or none of them are. The fact that ICE detainers are constantly issued everyday and also honored everyday means that it is not established case law.
You keep arguing against a position I have not taken, despite being corrected on the matter multiple times.

Nobody here is claiming that ICE cannot issue detainers or administrative warrants. The issue is whether those instruments, by themselves, provide lawful authority for a local jail to continue holding someone after their state-law custody has ended.

Courts have repeatedly held that they do not, and that extending detention solely on the basis of an ICE detainer can create Fourth Amendment liability absent independent legal authority or a judicial warrant.

That is not my personal theory. As I have explained to you several times now, it is established case law.

So the relevant distinction is not: "Are ICE detainers constitutional in the abstract?"

It is: " Do ICE detainers alone authorize continued detention after lawful release?"

And once again, courts have repeatedly said no.

I have repeatedly explained the distinction between ICE detainers and continued local detention authority, and I have repeatedly cited the relevant case law addressing it.

At this point, if you believe those courts are wrong, then your disagreement is with the courts, not with me. I am not interested in continuing a discussion where my actual argument is repeatedly replaced with a different one after multiple corrections.
 
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Hades

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There was some talk about the Dutch being DUMB enough to sell the host of our digital citizen database to American companies and for some reason the government stuck to this idea for a weirdly long time before forbidding it. Because giving our data to allies that are hostile and treasonous was always an intensely stupid idea.

The big heroes of this tale might be Microsoft who leaked the private information of public servants to the American government and proved that Americans would betray us if we let them close to our information. The filth.

 
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Phoenixmgs

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The first source is an opinion piece that relies heavily on insinuation and emotionally loaded framing while providing no evidentiary support for the broader conclusions it wants the reader to draw.

The Washington Times article similarly relies on headline framing that implies a far broader phenomenon than the article itself substantiates. The actual figure cited is 60 investigated cases involving allegedly fraudulent documentation.

To give you a sense of how small that is on scale, the same article notes that there were more than 5.4 million active immigration cases (not fraud cases, general cases) awaiting final adjudication. That's 0.0011%. Even taking the article entirely at face value, the number cited does not remotely support the implication that fraudulent asylum claims are occurring at some massive or system-defining scale.

Ironically, the actual figures supplied by your own sources are broadly consistent with the point I was making earlier: claims of rampant asylum fraud are frequently asserted far more strongly than the available evidence supports.




That is not the question being discussed.

This is not a debate about whether convicted criminals should be removed or what most people prefer policy-wise. It is a question of what legal authority exists for continued detention after release, and what courts have held about ICE detainers and administrative warrants.

Appeals to popularity and policy preferences do not answer that legal question.




Nobody here is claiming that ICE cannot issue detainers or administrative warrants. The issue is whether those instruments, by themselves, provide lawful authority for a local jail to continue holding someone after their state-law custody has ended.

Courts have repeatedly held that they do not, and that extending detention solely on the basis of an ICE detainer can create Fourth Amendment liability absent independent legal authority or a judicial warrant.
Of the 60 cases they chose (which were of suspected fraud), X amount of those had fraud/issues. So taking that number and putting it over 5.4 million cases is extremely disingenuous.

The pool of suspected fraudulent cases is well above just 60 obviously.
The report’s authors found thousands of instances of would-be sponsors’ using the same street addresses, internet protocol addresses or phone numbers. Almost 600 applications were flagged, for example, because they all appeared to use the address of the same commercial warehouse in Orlando, Florida.

Yes, either the ICE detainers are illegal/unconstitutional (will require SCOTUS ruling btw) or they are not. If they are deemed unconstitutional, the law will be changed so that they are not. That is just simply how that should work. Criminal serves time for a crime, if that criminal is not here legally, they should be transferred to DHS/ICE/CBP to be deported.

I fully understand that. Like I said, it will take a SCOTUS ruling for that.
 

Chimpzy

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Milli Vanilli? But one of them dead, and neither actually sang in the first place. Also, where Kid Rock? And Ted Nugent?

Such unsportsmanlike behaviour from Iran
 
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Xprimentyl

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Milli Vanilli? But one of them dead, and neither actually sang in the first place. Also, where Kid Rock? And Ted Nugent?
"Heavyweights" is extremely hyperbolic. Pretty sure most of those listed could be booked for karaoke night at a local pub. You could probably getting away paying them in tips like a busker.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Milli Vanilli? But one of them dead, and neither actually sang in the first place. Also, where Kid Rock? And Ted Nugent?
As Xprimentyl says, "All the Music Heavyweights" is about as truthful as anything Trump says.

Such unsportsmanlike behaviour from Iran
They did delay releasing hostages until minutes after Reagan got inaugurated, possibly as an insult to Carter. I could believe they'd wait for the midterms. Of course, one or two other people are messing up the peace process as well.
 

Asita

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Yes, either the ICE detainers are illegal/unconstitutional (will require SCOTUS ruling btw) or they are not. If they are deemed unconstitutional, the law will be changed so that they are not. That is just simply how that should work. Criminal serves time for a crime, if that criminal is not here legally, they should be transferred to DHS/ICE/CBP to be deported.

I fully understand that. Like I said, it will take a SCOTUS ruling for that.
Okay, we are done here, because you keep substituting what I'm telling you for something else entirely.

Once again:
Nobody here is claiming that ICE cannot issue detainers or administrative warrants. The issue is whether those instruments, by themselves, provide lawful authority for a local jail to continue holding someone after their state-law custody has ended.​
Courts have repeatedly held that they do not, and that extending detention solely on the basis of an ICE detainer can create Fourth Amendment liability absent independent legal authority or a judicial warrant.​
That is not my personal theory. As I have explained to you several times now, it is established case law.
So the relevant distinction is not: "Are ICE detainers constitutional in the abstract?"​
It is: "Do ICE detainers alone authorize continued detention after lawful release?"​
And once again, courts have repeatedly said no.

That is saying that "Courts have repeatedly ruled that they are insufficient grounds on their own to continue detention past the legal release deadline", and that it is well established in court. There is no reasonable way to interpret that as saying "ICE Detainers are illegal/unconstutional", so your continued insistence on treating it as such sticks out like a sore thumb.

Worse still: you specifically asked for me to provide you the case law I cited. But when I obliged (and even reposted it time and again), you simply refused to even acknowledge it each and every time in favor of attacking a strawman of your own creation and insisting that it cannot be true simply because it conflicted with your personal reasoning.
 
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Trunkage

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If the dominant language of the rest of my medical team is English, a neurosurgeon who speaks English has an important skill over a similarly skilled neurosurgeon who does not. Unless the non-English speaking neurosurgeon comes with an OR support staff that shares their language and a translator to explain to me and my other doctors what's going on, that is.

The value of English as a skill depends entirely on how important it is for the person to be able to quickly and accurately communicate with English speakers. For some positions it's not important - either communication doesn't need to be that quick, the person isn't public facing primarily somewhere like the US or UK, or need for communication has a small enough set of cases that the stuff that does need to be quick and is in English can essentially be memorized (for example traffic signs and lights are designed to be mostly usable by the illiterate, a handful of English words gets you 95% of the way there). For others, it can be.
Can you show me anywhere where I disagreed with this?

Im not comparing Neurosurgeon English speaker to other speakers Neurosurgeons. Im comparing English speakers who arent skilled at Neurosurgery to Neurosurgeons.

I used Neurosurgery analogy becuase I thought this concept was really easy to understand and something we could agree on. Clearly, I was wrong.

I'll note that I do not think that any particular Neurosurgeon today is incompentent. There are doctors boards that make sure that does not happen. That's why Trump has been taking out experts so he can place people who are loyal rather than compentent
 

Gordon_4

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"Heavyweights" is extremely hyperbolic. Pretty sure most of those listed could be booked for karaoke night at a local pub. You could probably getting away paying them in tips like a busker.
Bruce Springsteen has the chance to do something extremely funny.
 

tstorm823

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You keep arguing against a position I have not taken, despite being corrected on the matter multiple times.

Nobody here is claiming that ICE cannot issue detainers or administrative warrants. The issue is whether those instruments, by themselves, provide lawful authority for a local jail to continue holding someone after their state-law custody has ended.

Courts have repeatedly held that they do not, and that extending detention solely on the basis of an ICE detainer can create Fourth Amendment liability absent independent legal authority or a judicial warrant.

That is not my personal theory. As I have explained to you several times now, it is established case law.

So the relevant distinction is not: "Are ICE detainers constitutional in the abstract?"

It is: " Do ICE detainers alone authorize continued detention after lawful release?"

And once again, courts have repeatedly said no.

I have repeatedly explained the distinction between ICE detainers and continued local detention authority, and I have repeatedly cited the relevant case law addressing it.

At this point, if you believe those courts are wrong, then your disagreement is with the courts, not with me. I am not interested in continuing a discussion where my actual argument is repeatedly replaced with a different one after multiple corrections.
I believe you are correct on the subject of detainers beyond a prisoner's set time of incarceration, I do not think Phoenix is right about that.

But I also know that certain states and jurisdictions go out of their way to avoid immigration enforcement happening. California penal code, for example, bans the courts from asking immigration status. Additionally, when a defendant is known to be an immigrant, legally or illegally, prosecutors are guided to actively avoid plea deals that might trigger immigration enforcement. An immigrant pleading guilty to crimes in California gets explicitly different treatment than a citizen as mandated by state law to actively avoid deportations. And there's a proposed amendment in their assembly now to set up explicitly how a criminal sentence can be undone if the prosecutor didn't offer a way to dodge ICE.

Some places do have "sanctuary" policies, some places have genuinely gone a little nuts with them.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Okay, we are done here, because you keep substituting what I'm telling you for something else entirely.

Once again:
Nobody here is claiming that ICE cannot issue detainers or administrative warrants. The issue is whether those instruments, by themselves, provide lawful authority for a local jail to continue holding someone after their state-law custody has ended.​
Courts have repeatedly held that they do not, and that extending detention solely on the basis of an ICE detainer can create Fourth Amendment liability absent independent legal authority or a judicial warrant.​
That is not my personal theory. As I have explained to you several times now, it is established case law.
So the relevant distinction is not: "Are ICE detainers constitutional in the abstract?"​
It is: "Do ICE detainers alone authorize continued detention after lawful release?"​
And once again, courts have repeatedly said no.

That is saying that "Courts have repeatedly ruled that they are insufficient grounds on their own to continue detention past the legal release deadline", and that it is well established in court. There is no reasonable way to interpret that as saying "ICE Detainers are illegal/unconstutional", so your continued insistence on treating it as such sticks out like a sore thumb.

Worse still: you specifically asked for me to provide you the case law I cited. But when I obliged (and even reposted it time and again), you simply refused to even acknowledge it each and every time in favor of attacking a strawman of your own creation and insisting that it cannot be true simply because it conflicted with your personal reasoning.
I'm understanding everything you have said, you're not understanding me. The fact that ICE detainers TODAY are honored across the country and prisoners are held because of them literally proves they are not unconstitutional. Yes, I understand it's not the ICE detainer that matters itself, it's the holding of the prisoner due to them is the crux of the argument. Yes, courts have ruled that holding prisoners on just the ICE detainer is unconstitutional but that doesn't make it unconstitutional. A court ruled you could remove Donald Trump from the presidential ballot because the 14th amendment but that was obviously overturned because it was a BS ruling. Whether ICE detainers can hold prisoners or not will have to be heard by the Supreme Court. Then, regardless of if the Supreme Court rules that it is indeed unconstitutional, the law will be changed in a manner to make it constitutional because that is how DHS/ICE/CBP is designed to operate by law.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Too little. Much too little. Trump on every bill and coin. Anything less is unfathomable.
Trump on everything, everywhere. White marble and gold leaf. Lincoln, get outta Trump's chair. Rename the Washington Monument to Trump's Tribute to Manly Erections. We need an Arc d'Trump-omphe.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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"Heavyweights" is extremely hyperbolic. Pretty sure most of those listed could be booked for karaoke night at a local pub. You could probably getting away paying them in tips like a busker.
Sooo at least three performers are backing out of the performance, with one of the actual singers behind Milli Vanilli saying she had not actually been asked to appear before the announcement.


In an Instagram post, Young MC questioned whether the National Mall shows would be nonpartisan. “The artists were never told about any political involvement with the event,” he wrote, adding that he hoped to “perform in D.C. in the near future at an event that is not so politically charged.” Day posted on Instagram that “Contrary to rumor, Morris Day & The Time will not be performing at the ‘GREAT AMERICAN STATE FAIR.”
 
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Asita

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I'm understanding everything you have said, you're not understanding me. The fact that ICE detainers TODAY are honored across the country and prisoners are held because of them literally proves they are not unconstitutional. Yes, I understand it's not the ICE detainer that matters itself, it's the holding of the prisoner due to them is the crux of the argument. Yes, courts have ruled that holding prisoners on just the ICE detainer is unconstitutional but that doesn't make it unconstitutional. A court ruled you could remove Donald Trump from the presidential ballot because the 14th amendment but that was obviously overturned because it was a BS ruling. Whether ICE detainers can hold prisoners or not will have to be heard by the Supreme Court. Then, regardless of if the Supreme Court rules that it is indeed unconstitutional, the law will be changed in a manner to make it constitutional because that is how DHS/ICE/CBP is designed to operate by law.
See, this is exactly what I mean. You clearly do not understand what I'm saying, because you keep on substituting what I say with a strawman that says something completely different.

I have not once said that ICE detainers are unconstitutional in themselves.

What I said is that the courts have repeatedly ruled that they are insufficient basis to hold someone past their legally mandated release date, for reasons that the case law I cited to you detailed.

I've not only explained this to you and provided the legal basis to you several times, but I've also clarified repeatedly that I wasn't claiming unconstitutionality, only for your to respond by insisting "that doesn't mean it's unconstitutional"...the very claim I just got through telling you a dozen times over that I wasn't even making!

And when you asked for case law supporting the claim that they aren't sufficient legal basis, I provided you with literally a dozen cases supplying it, only for you to ignore them until just now where you just dismiss them out of hand as "not counting" because you've unilaterally decided that the Supreme Court will eventually say that those courts got it wrong.

You clearly don't care about what I'm actually arguing, given that you insist on substituting what I've said for a strawman of your own creation, and - despite asking for it - you clearly don't give a damn about what the courts said, instead insisting that - since it does not support your argument - they're wrong but it doesn't matter because you tell yourself the Supreme Court will eventually overturn them and make the law agree with you eventually.

So again, I'm done.
 
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Chimpzy

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The Rogue Wolf

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But it is peanuts? All this complaining, even tho it's never Trump's fault these people are choosing to be poor
You have to choose between food and being able to drive to work so that Trump can win the war he already won and destroy Iran's nuclear capability that he already destroyed.
 

Chimpzy

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Weight and height reqs? What for? 4000 person battle royale mass brawl?

Some would say this is against the law, but that should not matter.