Valve Hasn't Given up on Paid Mods

[Sarge034]

Meh. You're so far off base here, I know the rest of the post isn't going to be worth reading. You can stop. I'm past the point of caring.

You never did care, if you did you'd address the points made. However you obviously do care about pushing your point of view if you're still posting in this thread, but I'll just leave this here and laugh and laugh and laugh.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/161161-Payday-2-Microtransactions-Not-Going-Anywhere
Yet another example of a dev/pub fucking over, and lying to, their consumers for easy money. But they'd never bastardize mods...

 

[Starke]

You never did care, if you did you'd address the points made.

If you could make a point, I'd address it. So far, I haven't seen anything from your posts to suggest that's the case. All I'm seeing is lazy generalizations and personal attacks. So, no, I care a great deal about this. You're attempts to "contribute?" Not so much.

 

[Sarge034]

If you could make a point, I'd address it. So far, I haven't seen anything from your posts to suggest that's the case. All I'm seeing is lazy generalizations and personal attacks.

My main and continued point is that there is a proven track record of dev/pubs fucking over consumers for a quick buck. You say it won't happen with mods, but I've shown time after time where similar things have happened and where it continues to happen. If you see that as lazy generalizations then I honestly don't know, other than agreeing with everything you say or waiting until it comes to pass and saying "I told you so.", how you expect people to be able to discuss this with you. As for personal attacks, I attacked your motivations because it's no different than those of the current game industry and I despise the current motivations of the games industry. From there on you saw what you wanted to see.

 

[Strazdas]

this was known from the very begining. people refused to listen. looks like valve started digging again. Were the Fallout 4 paid mod rumours true? is this how mods got on consoles, by destroying the modding? consoles do ruin everything they touch, dont they?

One thing that I'll mention is that Valve is mostly interested since it doubtlessly plans to take a cut from every mod sold due to the usage of their platform. This likely means they will expect ALL mods they decide to host in their workshop to eventually be paid mods. It also means a donation system would be hinky since if you decide to say donate a couple of bucks to a good mod creator you have to wonder what % of that goes towards buying junk food for Valve's famous free employee snack bar.

Valve will never allow donations. or at least wont name it donations. this is because legally you are not allowed to take a cut from donations.

You're forgetting that authors will need to upload their work to those sites, it depends entirely on the modders.

What we saw with skyrim mods is authors either taking down their mods from nexus and using exclusive steam platform or changing thier mods on nexus to launch populs telling you to buy the mod instead (literally, midas spells would show you a popup every 10 spells you cast). so modders have already proven they failed there.

 

[Starke]

If you could make a point, I'd address it. So far, I haven't seen anything from your posts to suggest that's the case. All I'm seeing is lazy generalizations and personal attacks.

My main and continued point is that there is a proven track record of dev/pubs fucking over consumers for a quick buck. You say it won't happen with mods...

I never said that. I said Bethesda wasn't quite stupid enough to try squelching free mods entirely. I've also said I wouldn't be surprised if Ubisoft or EA were exactly that dumb. Though, the second part might not have been in this thread.

As for personal attacks, I attacked your motivations...

Then don't fucking do that. You know you're lowering the bar, you've only yourself to blame when the conversation goes to shit.

 

[Starke]

You're forgetting that authors will need to upload their work to those sites, it depends entirely on the modders.

What we saw with skyrim mods is authors either taking down their mods from nexus and using exclusive steam platform or changing thier mods on nexus to launch populs telling you to buy the mod instead (literally, midas spells would show you a popup every 10 spells you cast). so modders have already proven they failed there.

Midas stuck a 5% or 10% chance of generating a pop up every time you cast one of his spells. Which, I'm sorry, that was just fucking stupid of him. He never should have updated the free version of the mod to do that. And, that's an individual being greedy.

Also, we saw people pulling mods for a number of reasons. I saw some yanking their stuff because they wanted to sell it. Which, like Midas, no sympathy. Those guys are assholes.

I saw others yanking their stuff because of the way the Nexus boards reacted. So many people crawling out of the woodwork who, ostensibly love our work, but the idea of us actually making money off it enraged them. So much entitlement on there. I know a few modders who went "fuck this noise, I don't need this shit," took their ball and went home. I left my stuff up, because I'm not quite that petty. But, again, that's people.

If Bethesda were really the evil empire here, they wouldn't have pulled the mods over the outcry. I mean, look at the crap Valve does and refuses to roll back on a regular basis. They were ready for the backlash. I don't think Bethesda was, and it wasn't something they were ready to weather.

 

[Strazdas]

You're forgetting that authors will need to upload their work to those sites, it depends entirely on the modders.

What we saw with skyrim mods is authors either taking down their mods from nexus and using exclusive steam platform or changing thier mods on nexus to launch populs telling you to buy the mod instead (literally, midas spells would show you a popup every 10 spells you cast). so modders have already proven they failed there.

Midas stuck a 5% or 10% chance of generating a pop up every time you cast one of his spells. Which, I'm sorry, that was just fucking stupid of him. He never should have updated the free version of the mod to do that. And, that's an individual being greedy.

Also, we saw people pulling mods for a number of reasons. I saw some yanking their stuff because they wanted to sell it. Which, like Midas, no sympathy. Those guys are assholes.

I saw others yanking their stuff because of the way the Nexus boards reacted. So many people crawling out of the woodwork who, ostensibly love our work, but the idea of us actually making money off it enraged them. So much entitlement on there. I know a few modders who went "fuck this noise, I don't need this shit," took their ball and went home. I left my stuff up, because I'm not quite that petty. But, again, that's people.

If Bethesda were really the evil empire here, they wouldn't have pulled the mods over the outcry. I mean, look at the crap Valve does and refuses to roll back on a regular basis. They were ready for the backlash. I don't think Bethesda was, and it wasn't something they were ready to weather.

a 10% chance to generate a popup when you cast a spell averages to a popup every 10 casts. he has lowered the chance after a massive backlash, though.

Bethesda is an evil empire for the reason that they wanted a cut from content they did not take part in creating or in any way hosting to begin with. bethesdas cut has to be 0% for me to ever accept paying for a mod.

Valve seems to have had the "do no wrong" attitude from gamers, however the paid mods fiasco has burned a lot of bridged. i know entire communities that used to worship steam badmouth it to this day over this. on the internet Origin is becoming known as better than Steam. Valve may not realize this, but they are loosing the good faith people had in them, fast. Of course Gabe going on reddit and claiming that "money steers communities" didnt help much, considering that all replies were basically "we steered ourselves without being paid for over a decade just fine".

 

[Starke]

You're forgetting that authors will need to upload their work to those sites, it depends entirely on the modders.

What we saw with skyrim mods is authors either taking down their mods from nexus and using exclusive steam platform or changing thier mods on nexus to launch populs telling you to buy the mod instead (literally, midas spells would show you a popup every 10 spells you cast). so modders have already proven they failed there.

Midas stuck a 5% or 10% chance of generating a pop up every time you cast one of his spells. Which, I'm sorry, that was just fucking stupid of him. He never should have updated the free version of the mod to do that. And, that's an individual being greedy.

Also, we saw people pulling mods for a number of reasons. I saw some yanking their stuff because they wanted to sell it. Which, like Midas, no sympathy. Those guys are assholes.

I saw others yanking their stuff because of the way the Nexus boards reacted. So many people crawling out of the woodwork who, ostensibly love our work, but the idea of us actually making money off it enraged them. So much entitlement on there. I know a few modders who went "fuck this noise, I don't need this shit," took their ball and went home. I left my stuff up, because I'm not quite that petty. But, again, that's people.

If Bethesda were really the evil empire here, they wouldn't have pulled the mods over the outcry. I mean, look at the crap Valve does and refuses to roll back on a regular basis. They were ready for the backlash. I don't think Bethesda was, and it wasn't something they were ready to weather.

a 10% chance to generate a popup when you cast a spell averages to a popup every 10 casts. he has lowered the chance after a massive backlash, though.

I assumed he'd removed it entirely, when the program was shut down. Which only goes back to, "he's a fucking idiot." I mean, I can understand a degree of greed. But, deliberately hobbling your own products after the fact, in an attempt to get people to give you money is just downright stupid, and designed to go off in your face.

Bethesda is an evil empire for the reason that they wanted a cut from content they did not take part in creating or in any way hosting to begin with. bethesdas cut has to be 0% for me to ever accept paying for a mod.

Yeah, that's not happening. I mean, I get the idea behind it, but it's unrealistic. You're working with someone else's IP. They spent a lot of money developing it, getting it out there, they are not going to let you waltz in and wander off with whatever you want free of charge.

And, as I pointed out earlier, the cut modders were getting was actually better than what Greg Keyes is getting from the tie-in novels. And those were professional products. A 25% royalty rate is stupidly good. Even accounting for the initial $400 sales threshold, which later got dropped to $100, I think.

In some respects, this is a lot like expecting to be able to sell your own fan fiction. Which, you can't. Though Amazon does offer a 35% rate for that on some specific properties. In light of that, this was supposed to be a good deal for the modders.

I mean, you can say, "but the modders did all the work," at which point, no, they didn't develop the game, or the tools their using.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get the entirety of the sales from something I made. But, I'm also enough of an adult to know that's an unrealistic outcome.

The "evil empire" in this would have been using DMCAs to shut down The Nexus, forcing people over to Steam Workshop, monetizing it, and not giving the modders a cut at all. Which, thanks to just how messed up IP laws are, in general, is actually just this side of possible. And, one that wouldn't surprise me coming from some publishers.

Hell, it's not like that isn't a possible outcome. Cryptic already does that with their Foundry in Star Trek and Neverwinter. You create content for them, for free. In exchange people get Dilithium or Astral Diamonds for running the content. Dil and AD are exchangeable for real money currency with other players, meaning, in grinding it, you're actually turning around and providing something else for people to spend real money with Cryptic on. And the modder gets nothing from that.

Valve seems to have had the "do no wrong" attitude from gamers, however the paid mods fiasco has burned a lot of bridged. i know entire communities that used to worship steam badmouth it to this day over this. on the internet Origin is becoming known as better than Steam. Valve may not realize this, but they are loosing the good faith people had in them, fast. Of course Gabe going on reddit and claiming that "money steers communities" didnt help much, considering that all replies were basically "we steered ourselves without being paid for over a decade just fine".

Yeah, brand loyalty and the Cult of Gabe are weird. I'm not even going to question that part. Steam still has an absurdly large marketshare, and dislodging them isn't going to happen anytime soon. I do agree that it will happen as a result of their own hubris. Though I suspect that their habit of letting utter shit onto the platform via greenlight and other means is probably far more damaging to them in the long run than this is.

I mean, that's the thing, and it shows in Gabe's comments, or at least what I remember of them. They make a lot of money from early access stuff, and Greenlight, but in the long run, it will do more damage to the Steam brand than this will. This is poisoning one community, Greenlight and Early Access are poisoning the well. Damage that even the Cult of Gabe can't rally from.

 

[Strazdas]

Bethesda is an evil empire for the reason that they wanted a cut from content they did not take part in creating or in any way hosting to begin with. bethesdas cut has to be 0% for me to ever accept paying for a mod.

Yeah, that's not happening. I mean, I get the idea behind it, but it's unrealistic. You're working with someone else's IP. They spent a lot of money developing it, getting it out there, they are not going to let you waltz in and wander off with whatever you want free of charge.

And, as I pointed out earlier, the cut modders were getting was actually better than what Greg Keyes is getting from the tie-in novels. And those were professional products. A 25% royalty rate is stupidly good. Even accounting for the initial $400 sales threshold, which later got dropped to $100, I think.

In some respects, this is a lot like expecting to be able to sell your own fan fiction. Which, you can't. Though Amazon does offer a 35% rate for that on some specific properties. In light of that, this was supposed to be a good deal for the modders.

I mean, you can say, "but the modders did all the work," at which point, no, they didn't develop the game, or the tools their using.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get the entirety of the sales from something I made. But, I'm also enough of an adult to know that's an unrealistic outcome.

The "evil empire" in this would have been using DMCAs to shut down The Nexus, forcing people over to Steam Workshop, monetizing it, and not giving the modders a cut at all. Which, thanks to just how messed up IP laws are, in general, is actually just this side of possible. And, one that wouldn't surprise me coming from some publishers.

Hell, it's not like that isn't a possible outcome. Cryptic already does that with their Foundry in Star Trek and Neverwinter. You create content for them, for free. In exchange people get Dilithium or Astral Diamonds for running the content. Dil and AD are exchangeable for real money currency with other players, meaning, in grinding it, you're actually turning around and providing something else for people to spend real money with Cryptic on. And the modder gets nothing from that.

And they already got paid for their work on their IP (including the modding tools) when i bought the game. I already paid them for the work they done, fair and square. what right do they have to demand i pay them even more now for work other people did?

No, 25% is not stupidly good. its stupidly bad in this case. i agree that valve should take its standard 30% cut if valve agrees to take same responsibilities it does for its other content. this includes refunds if the game is broken (in this case mod is broken). Otherwise valves cut should be lower. the rest should go to the publisher of the mod as same is true for games. bethesda gets 70% of a game purchase, mod owner should get 70% of purchase of the mod. bethesda splits it among various departments and same should be true for the company that produced a mod, which admittedly sometimes is only one guy.

I can sort of understand the payment threshold due to transaction fees and other costs, but i wish it could be done away with.

Moders DID do all the work. they developed a mod. A graphic artists does not pay royalties to adobe because adobe developed the tools. he purchased the tools and can use them to make his own work. just like the modder purchased the game and can use it to make mods.


And yes, the law is quite fucked up in this regard, but just because they can do it does not mean they should.

 

[Starke]

And they already got paid for their work on their IP (including the modding tools) when i bought the game. I already paid them for the work they done, fair and square. what right do they have to demand i pay them even more now for work other people did?

Because you're then turning around and using those tools to make money. I mean, you bring up Adobe in in a second, so this can wait for a second.

No, 25% is not stupidly good. its stupidly bad in this case. i agree that valve should take its standard 30% cut if valve agrees to take same responsibilities it does for its other content. this includes refunds if the game is broken (in this case mod is broken). Otherwise valves cut should be lower. the rest should go to the publisher of the mod as same is true for games. bethesda gets 70% of a game purchase, mod owner should get 70% of purchase of the mod. bethesda splits it among various departments and same should be true for the company that produced a mod, which admittedly sometimes is only one guy.

I can sort of understand the payment threshold due to transaction fees and other costs, but i wish it could be done away with.

Ironically, I think the threshold probably had more to do with tax reporting than with transaction fees. I don't know for certain, it's one of those elements of the system that hasn't really been explained. But, if it was just a transactions fee issue, I doubt it would have been walked back. We would have gotten a, "well, this couldn't be fixed" explanation, possibly with details about how they'd actually be loosing money at that point.

Being able to walk it back starts to sound like an accounting decision. Which, makes me think it's tax related, but it could have just been set up to avoid a messy balance book filled with mods that only ever made a couple bucks.

Moders DID do all the work.

The modder did not make Skyrim.

they developed a mod.

they didn't develop the CS.

A graphic artists does not pay royalties to adobe because adobe developed the tools. he purchased the tools and can use them to make his own work. just like the modder purchased the game and can use it to make mods.

He also pays a lot more for those tools for commercial use. The same is true for Microsoft Office, and most other productivity tools. A simple home copy will usually be cheap, but a professional copy for commercial use is usually a lot more expensive. Small site licenses for some software can easily climb into five figures. Hell, I still remember needing a USB dongle for a copy of QuarkXPress I had to work with years ago. As in the software was so expensive, they could eat the cost of a physical authenticator for each copy.

I don't know what the prices are these days, because I don't have to worry about it, but, yes, if you're a graphic designer, and you're making stuff at home on a cheap copy, that probably ran you 100. If you're doing professional work, you're probably paying over a grand for your software.

Here's the question I can't answer. What's Bethesda's cut going towards? I have a suspicion, at least some of that was earmarked to verifying that the mods uploaded were legitimate and non-infringing. If you look back at the image on the article, you've got to know that couldn't have happened. Disney and Microsoft would have sued the living shit out of Valve and Bethesda over their IPs being used commercially without approval. And, because you're talking about literally selling stuff on their IPs, a simple DMCA wouldn't protect them. That means there has to have been some vetting process. Which means that Valve or Bethesda was having to go out of pocket on every mod uploaded. That has to be paid for somehow.

They also couldn't go to a non-vetted system, because some chucklehead would immediately use that to upload infected files and try to get paid for it. That means, you upload your mod. Some derp uploads their spiderman mod, or one they swiped off the Nexus. Bethesda or Valve needs to pay someone to look at the mod, check to see if it's on the level, then post it. More than that, we know there was a two week lead time for vetting, so this was happening at some level.

It's not that Bethesda and Valve are splitting 75% and laughing to the bank with it. There were expenses on their end. We just don't know what those were.

25% is far better than I see in publishing (again, ignoring Amazon's fan fiction self-pub, where there's no editing). It's better than Musicians get. If you want to work as a games designer, you will get abused to hell and back, and make less than minimum wage, without royalties at all.

Yeah, 25% is something I can honestly look at, in the larger context and say, that's very good. If you've never looked at royalties seriously before, I get where it sounds horrible. But that is a very big chunk of the pie for what content creators usually get. If you think that sucks, you need to understand it comes from a position where you're in competition with a lot of other potential content creators, and anyone that will work for less can screw you out.

If you want to say, "that's the proletariat screwing itself," then, yep, it is. But, when the situation is literally, "play by their rules or go home?" Yeah, 25% is good. If you find a better deal elsewhere, jump on it. You just got supremely lucky.

 

[Strazdas]

Moders DID do all the work.

The modder did not make Skyrim.

The modder isnt selling Skyrim. Everyone involved already bought Skyrim from Bethesda.

they didn't develop the CS.

The modder isnt selling CS. Everyone involved already bought Skyrim from Bethesda.

He also pays a lot more for those tools for commercial use. The same is true for Microsoft Office, and most other productivity tools. A simple home copy will usually be cheap, but a professional copy for commercial use is usually a lot more expensive. Small site licenses for some software can easily climb into five figures. Hell, I still remember needing a USB dongle for a copy of QuarkXPress I had to work with years ago. As in the software was so expensive, they could eat the cost of a physical authenticator for each copy.

No. You picked the example of MS Office. it does not matter what version you use, home or enterprise, you can produce and sell anything that it allows you to produce, even including the clipart artworks that are sold with Office. the different versions simply come with more tools. There is no "commercial license" when it comes to office.

Ok, onto adobe. do read this Adobe support ticket [https://forums.adobe.com/message/4915990] where they clearly state that you can even use student license version or even trial version for commercial purpose.

here is a direct quote in there:

(If you somehow finish the game after 20 days of using the Trial then you can start selling the game even if you have not yet purchased the software.)

Yes, some software does limit commercial use for certain versions. this is almost always highly specialized and monopolistic software developers.

Here's the question I can't answer. What's Bethesda's cut going towards? I have a suspicion, at least some of that was earmarked to verifying that the mods uploaded were legitimate and non-infringing. If you look back at the image on the article, you've got to know that couldn't have happened. Disney and Microsoft would have sued the living shit out of Valve and Bethesda over their IPs being used commercially without approval. And, because you're talking about literally selling stuff on their IPs, a simple DMCA wouldn't protect them. That means there has to have been some vetting process. Which means that Valve or Bethesda was having to go out of pocket on every mod uploaded. That has to be paid for somehow.

if a modder decides to sell a mod which is infringing on someones copyrights or trademarks, then it is up to that copyright/trademark holder to decide whether to send a takedown notice to, in this case, valve to take that mod out. As long as Valve complies with the law and takes it down, it cannot be sued for this. valve also clearly stated that they will not be vetting anything and its going to be "community curated". Note that the copyright holder does not have to send takedown notice. there is no oblication for them to police the itnernet from infringement, so it is entirely their discretion (im only pointing it out because a lot of people wrongly think that they must do this to keep the copyright).

They also couldn't go to a non-vetted system, because some chucklehead would immediately use that to upload infected files and try to get paid for it. That means, you upload your mod. Some derp uploads their spiderman mod, or one they swiped off the Nexus. Bethesda or Valve needs to pay someone to look at the mod, check to see if it's on the level, then post it. More than that, we know there was a two week lead time for vetting, so this was happening at some level.

Funny, thats exactly what happened in paid Skyrim mods fiasco. though from my understanding it was removed within 24 hours.

It's not that Bethesda and Valve are splitting 75% and laughing to the bank with it. There were expenses on their end. We just don't know what those were.

there were no expenses incurred for Bethesda other than the time their lawyers spend telling valve "give us more money"
The Valves expenses are in fact less than that of a game sold on thier platform because in that case they are legally obligated to make sure that it isnt a scam which they were not doing with mods. and like i said, i agree with valve taking the same cut it does for games.

25% is far better than I see in publishing (again, ignoring Amazon's fan fiction self-pub, where there's no editing). It's better than Musicians get. If you want to work as a games designer, you will get abused to hell and back, and make less than minimum wage, without royalties at all.

Not an excuse. this whole argument is "look those people own slaves, so it means its ok for us to own slaves too"

Yeah, 25% is something I can honestly look at, in the larger context and say, that's very good. If you've never looked at royalties seriously before, I get where it sounds horrible. But that is a very big chunk of the pie for what content creators usually get. If you think that sucks, you need to understand it comes from a position where you're in competition with a lot of other potential content creators, and anyone that will work for less can screw you out.

which is why copyright laws should be entirely remade to protect authors, not publishers.

If you want to say, "that's the proletariat screwing itself," then, yep, it is. But, when the situation is literally, "play by their rules or go home?" Yeah, 25% is good. If you find a better deal elsewhere, jump on it. You just got supremely lucky.

Children working in coal mines though that too, yet we outlawed that.

 

[Starke]

Not an excuse. this whole argument is "look those people own slaves, so it means its ok for us to own slaves too"

I don't even fucking know. Choosing to making stuff for a video games, and getting paid, is like slavery? Right, yeah, no.

I was typing up a response, because most of your comments were just ill informed, but this? What the actual fuck?

No, slavery is where you would get whipped to death because "massah is a good massah." This is about having the option to make some cash doing something you love. What the everloving fuck?

 

[Strazdas]

Not an excuse. this whole argument is "look those people own slaves, so it means its ok for us to own slaves too"

I don't even fucking know. Choosing to making stuff for a video games, and getting paid, is like slavery? Right, yeah, no.

I was typing up a response, because most of your comments were just ill informed, but this? What the actual fuck?

No, slavery is where you would get whipped to death because "massah is a good massah." This is about having the option to make some cash doing something you love. What the everloving fuck?

I was showing why the mindset of "others do it too" is not an excuse of doing something. i chose slavery as an extreme example to ram down the point.

 

[Starke]

Not an excuse. this whole argument is "look those people own slaves, so it means its ok for us to own slaves too"

I don't even fucking know. Choosing to making stuff for a video games, and getting paid, is like slavery? Right, yeah, no.

I was typing up a response, because most of your comments were just ill informed, but this? What the actual fuck?

No, slavery is where you would get whipped to death because "massah is a good massah." This is about having the option to make some cash doing something you love. What the everloving fuck?

I was showing why the mindset of "others do it too" is not an excuse of doing something. i chose slavery as an extreme example to ram down the point.

And in the process, came across like an entitled teen throwing a snitfit over being asked to do their chores, and has no idea what they're really saying.

Look, I know Godwin is usually just for Nazis, but this has got to be some kind of corollary.

Bottom line? That was fucking disgusting.

 

[Magmarock]

You misunderstand. The witcher 3 has open modding and there are mods for it, but nothing drastic nor are most people interested in playing a modded version over the default version. If the majority people ware jumping on mods as soon as your game is out then it usually means that something is wrong with the default game.

Yeah, that I can understand. It sounded like you were saying that any game with a voracious modding scene is inherently a bad thing.

Bethesda's weird. They've never managed to turn out a top notch game, out of the box... yeah, no, never. So that's where the modding starts. And the end result is pretty unique. But, it's kinda like those shit cars you have to rebuild to turn them into something top tier. Yeah, the base product is crap, but after you've put in the time and work, you'll get something utterly amazing. If you're into that kind of tinkering, it's great. If you just want a game, that runs right out of the box, it's not the right place to be.

And, for that, you're right.

With Bethesda, half the game is modifying it to suit your interests. Which, it's a niche appeal. If tinkering with a game isn't fun to you, then spending half your time modding it and half your time playing won't be enjoyable, and it'd be a bad purchase for you. If it is... then, holy crap is this a fantastic developer for you.

Nailed it. Yes that's exactly what I was trying to say. Sorry for the late reply.

 

[Starke]

You misunderstand. The witcher 3 has open modding and there are mods for it, but nothing drastic nor are most people interested in playing a modded version over the default version. If the majority people ware jumping on mods as soon as your game is out then it usually means that something is wrong with the default game.

Yeah, that I can understand. It sounded like you were saying that any game with a voracious modding scene is inherently a bad thing.

Bethesda's weird. They've never managed to turn out a top notch game, out of the box... yeah, no, never. So that's where the modding starts. And the end result is pretty unique. But, it's kinda like those shit cars you have to rebuild to turn them into something top tier. Yeah, the base product is crap, but after you've put in the time and work, you'll get something utterly amazing. If you're into that kind of tinkering, it's great. If you just want a game, that runs right out of the box, it's not the right place to be.

And, for that, you're right.

With Bethesda, half the game is modifying it to suit your interests. Which, it's a niche appeal. If tinkering with a game isn't fun to you, then spending half your time modding it and half your time playing won't be enjoyable, and it'd be a bad purchase for you. If it is... then, holy crap is this a fantastic developer for you.

Nailed it. Yes that's exactly what I was trying to say. Sorry for the late reply.

No worries. It's nice to have confirmation that I misunderstood what you were saying originally.

 

[Sarge034]

I never said that. I said Bethesda wasn't quite stupid enough to try squelching free mods entirely. I've also said I wouldn't be surprised if Ubisoft or EA were exactly that dumb. Though, the second part might not have been in this thread.

The industry does and Bethesda has been going to shit slowly too. You refuse to see the industry trends because they don't match your spin. To outright dismiss trends in favor of one or two cherry picked straw men shows your position clearly. And now I'm being held responsible for what you say about this conversation out of this thread? Convenient.

Then don't fucking do that. You know you're lowering the bar, you've only yourself to blame when the conversation goes to shit.

When your motivations are relevant to the topic, and YOU bring them up, I'll attack the shit out of them. You only pointed to them after I began demonstrating the industries' trend of ant consumer money grubbing practices (presumably so you didn't have to address them). So perhaps I in fact don't have myself to blame for someone who's so blinded by their position, that they have a personal stake in, that they'll misread a sentence out of context and drop the mic. That's not good debate edicate, but you're not here for a debate. You're here to champion your cause and crush the opposition.

If you can show something that would show the possibility of paid mods NOT being bastardized then you may have a leg to stand on, and hell you may even change my mind. But you haven't shown anything but your opinion.

 

[Starke]

When your motivations are relevant to the topic, and YOU bring them up, I'll attack the shit out of them.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I can tell you're not interested in a conversation on the subject, you just want to throw a tantrum. Well, go ahead. I'll wait. If you have anything meaningful to say, I'll wait, but I seriously doubt that's going to happen. At this point, all you've got left are personal attacks.

 

[Starke]

If you can show something that would show the possibility of paid mods NOT being bastardized then you may have a leg to stand on, and hell you may even change my mind. But you haven't shown anything but your opinion.

Okay, here's one, but I know you don't care; if you're working on a thing, and you can devote your time to that thing without having to worry about how you're going to make rent, you can turn out a higher quality, professional, product. This could have lead to mods that would honestly be higher quality than the base game by a substantial margin.

If you're not, and do need to do things like make rent, eventually, you're going to simply have to chuck the project or cut corners. Look at Skyrim's Equipping Overhaul for instance. Then realize it hasn't been updated, in spite of the developer working on it. You could assume that this was a result of insurmountable technical issues, but then we'd have heard something. So we're left with, it's not an unsolvable problem, just one that can't be dealt with someone in their free time.

But, then the entitled twats crawled out of the woodwork, and threw their tantrums claiming we owed them everything we did, free of charge, and how we should be sacrificing everything for them. Yeah, no, doesn't work like that, kid.