Valve Sued by Australia's Consumer Watchdog Over Refund Policy

RicoADF

Welcome back Commander
Jun 2, 2009
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SajuukKhar said:
While I would normally support this, there does exist the fundamental problem that STEAM, and everything it sells, is wholly digital, and thus, its impossible to refund something.

The entire process of trading in, lending, refunding, only works because physical materials are limited, and break down, thus ensuring new copies must be bought.

Such conditions dont exist in the digital world, there is no limited stock, there in no wearing down of data, digital products are, by their nature, worthless. You cant give back money to something you technically never lost, since Valves total number of game copies never changes from infinity.

Unfortunately, very antiqued consumer rights laws are still stuck in decades past, before any of this existed, and still falsely treat digital selling the same as physical selling, when they are oceans apart.
Funny that gog, gamers gate, Google, Apple, Amazon and even the evil EA can do refunds of digital goods. What's so magical about steam? It's rather simple, you get your money back and the game is removed from your account.

As stated this is in reference to Australian Consumer law that the game must work and be as described. If not then the store (physical or digital) are required by law to issue a refund. There's no discussion, it's the law and valve has been breaking it. Now they are being called up to answer for their crimes.
 

DrOswald

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Apr 22, 2011
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Valve really needs to start doing refunds, so I am glad they are getting some real flak for this. I love steam, but this is something that needs to change.
 

RicoADF

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Jun 2, 2009
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VanQ said:
Depends. Do you come from a country with decent internet? If you do, don't move here or you'll be disappointed by the low speeds and poor infrastructure. If you come from any country where ADSL is the norm, then any of the major cities on the East coast bar Hobart are good places to move.
Our internet isn't that bad actually. We have ADSL and ADSL2+ as well as 100mb/s Cable and NBN (fibre). From reading articles here people in the US often only get ADSL and even then it's slower and less data caps than we get, so really we're not getting such a bad deal. Because we have competition the deals are kept competitive where as alot of areas in the US have a monopoly. True Telstra has that in alot of rural areas but that's why the NBN is being rolled out there first.

I think the real reason people think our net is so bad isn't due to our net speed itself but rather due to the higher pings we get and slower load times of websites. What people forget though is that game servers and websites are normally hosted in the US, the other side of the planet. So while our speeds can be as good or even better than our US counterparts the distance still gives us more lag and higher ping, only those such as myself with 100mb/s have enough speed to compensate for the distance.
 

Demagogue

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Mar 26, 2009
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Steam won't leave Australia... they wouldn't be foolish enough to cut out an entire section of the market, especially when other digital distributors are there. The bad PR, and pressure from publishers will be enough to keep them there.

Do you think EA, Activision, Bethesda, etc would continue to opt for their games to distribute through steam if it meant they lost access to 22.7 million potential customers? This is 2013 data for steam sales revenue that I snagged from gamasutra... https://twitter.com/seanethompson/status/423552044696231936/photo/1 5% may be nothing in comparison to the 40% that comes out of NA and Western Europe, but there are what 75M+ users on steam now? For hypothetical numbers (since Valve doesn't release financial data) lets say every user buys on average $20 worth of games in a YEAR. which really isn't a big deal when you factor in sales and the like. Yes, some of those accounts are deactivated, but some people buy a lot more than $20 a year in games too... so it balances out, plus... examples!

So 75M users, at $20 a game is $1.5 Billion... at 30% revenue (that supposedly gog&steam take according to Phil Fish) That's $450M total revenue lets cut that in half to say pay for operational costs (which is probably way WAY WAY more than it would need). Now we're looking at a profit of $225M a year total global sales... 11 Million of that would have come from Australia...

Sure it isn't $90M from NA or WE, but 11 million is nothing to scoff at, and that's just a bunch of random guesses for numbers, and probably isn't even close to the true profit numbers. and for what, to not allow refunds? Give me a break... as many others have said Steam does allow refunds, they just make you have to work/fight for it... I could see them changing their policy to be something like this:

1) Early Access Games are not included... When you buy them there is a huge blue caption... "Note: This Early Access game may or may not change significantly over the course of development. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you may want to wait until the game progresses further in development."

AKA BUYERS BEWARE. If you aren't sure then you shouldn't be spending money on it. Value doesn't/shouldn't need to pay the bill for your impulse buying / poor decision making.

2) There will most likely be a very tight time frame (48 hours, 7 days, whatever) Something that makes it hard to 'completely' the game and then want a refund. This may also tie into time played of a game as well. (Eg, you can't log 60 hours into a game over 5 days, then want a refund on day 6)

3) There must be a defect or fault in the GAME that causes it to not function... If you bought Galactic Civilization 3 for your dual-core 10 year old computer and then complain when you can't run it... TOO BAD, There are system specs for the game, the game runs correctly (assuming you bought it after early access that is) the onus is on YOU to purchase games that you can play. I don't buy a motorcycle and then ***** at Yamaha for a refund because I can't drive it.


Either way the outcome Steam won't be losing out... as they will most likely refund the game, but then take the money back from the publisher. The publisher will get the hit most because that 30% distribution fee probably won't be factored in either. E.g. buy a game for $50, Valve takes 30% ($15 bucks). Consumer refunds it, Valve pays them back $50, and gets $50 back from the publisher. Even though the publisher only say $35 of that sale to start with.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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ron1n said:
Therumancer said:
I actually hope I'm wrong, but the bottom line is if Valve pushes, I think it's actually got Australia by the nads. That's one of the advantages to a virtual monopoly and why you try and stop people from establishing them (or Cartels if you can help it)... and of course one of the reasons I've always hated digital distribution is that if a company goes down or loses everything and is forced to go out of business, they take all your virtual property with them. I only do it because I have to, but as a general rule I do not like the idea of giving someone real money for a product I do not have control over myself.
This word monopoly, I don't think it means what you think it does.

Greenman Gaming, Origin, GoG, Ozgameshop, Uplay, Amazon (with some address trickery), GetGames, Humble Store. And that's just off the top of my head and not including a lot of other foreign options or grey-area key sites.

I actually don't buy much off steam at all these days because of their horrid pricing. Especially Triple A releases. Can nearly always get a better price off Greenman or Get Games.

And you just countered your own argument. Do you have any idea of the backlash if Steam decided to up and lock out Australia? Would be fucking stupidity incarnate. Will never happen.

Also I think people in this thread are vastly overestimating the powers of ACCC. They are the very definition of a paper tiger.
Note that I called it a VIRTUAL Monopoly, and also qualified it by pointing to the scale of Valve's business. None of those groups you mention operate on anything close to the same level. I do not think any of them are capable of even coming close to compensating for a lack of Steam.

.... and yes, I do have some idea of the backlash, which is part of why I think that if Valve plays hardball they will win. At the end of the day as much as people will badmouth Valve, they will wind up pushing to get Australia to give an exemption. They won't be happy about it (doing it under duress) but the bottom line is the same reasons there would be backlash are the reasons why they would push to get Valve to stay.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see Australia win, I just don't think it can if Valve decides to fight. The big question is whether or not Valve will, some people seem to think I'm wrong about Gabe and being pro-consumer he'll just calmly fall into line. Of course I'm commenting based on the fact that Valve hasn't done it so far which is why the issue even exists.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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BigTuk said:
Strazdas said:
BigTuk said:
erttheking said:
Christ I wish we had something like this in the States. Well, hope the ACCC wins this one.
Didn't work when the Germans tried it... and believe it or not.. Steam already gives refunds...when the product is genuinely unplayable... but not meeting expectations is a nebulous term. If the game is unplayable or misleadingly advertized.. refund, otherwise... yeah.. it's on ye.
It did when UK tried it though! Whenever steam refuses a refund just cite the UK consumer law and bam - refund. that is if you live in UK. UK law states that a person has a right to return it in 7 days without giving a reason.

ALso germans didnt want a refund, they wnated a right to Resell (as they should by EU law)
WOw, so you're saying Under UK Law I could say purchase, a Book, comic, DVD, or a magazine and as long as I can plow through it in under 7 days I can get a refund? Damn! I could have free Books, DVDs and COmics for life!
Yes, you could. However reality shows that people abusing the law like that are very few. Of course, it allows some bad apples like your example, however this is the price i find acceptable to have decent consumer protection laws.

you know where you could also have free books, dvds and comics for life? piracy. but your not doing that now are you (or at least you wont admit due to rules of conduit here). Just because you can game the system does not mean that people will do it en mass.
 

Shinkicker444

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Dec 6, 2011
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TheDoctor455 said:
For once I'm the Australian Government's side...

well... unless this hearing is also a sneaky way to force censorship down the industry's throat again.
That's the beauty of the insidious plan, they piss off Steam enough they pack up shop and leave and suddenly a large gaming market is gone, HURRAH! Censorship!! /crackpotconspiracytheory.

On topic, good to see this happening. Not that I've needed to get a refund from Steam in the past but still, this should be nice in the future if I ever do need one.
 

Flames66

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Aug 22, 2009
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Valve is one of my favorite companies and one of the very few to earn any trust, but I hope they are fined and forced to give refunds in this case.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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BigTuk said:
Mmm-Hmmm... you need to take a closer study of human behaviour. See most countries with sensible laws don't allow a good to be refunded after the value of the good has been extracted. It'd be like asking for your money back at Wendy's after you've eaten your entire meal. Though i wonder if this inherently means a cash refund or a replacement...since really I can't imagine what sort of idiocy would allow someone to return a book and get their money back after they've already read it. That's a legal loophole big enough to fit Kim Jong Sun's crazy through.


Just because a law benefits a group you belong to doesn't make it a sensible or even good law.
Yah, id rather take studies of real life behaviuor instead, which proves that most people dont abuse the system.

Most countries with sensible laws have consumer rights protection prioritized, hence ability to refund a broken TV for example. This is no different - ability to refund a broken game that was, for example, advertised for what it was not.
Yes, due to different case of determining whether the value was "Extracted" or not some abuse is possible, however it is preferable to laws that does not protect consumer from abuse of developers.

If i were to go to wendys and order a meal, and after eating half would find out that the other half is fileld with rotten meat, damn straight i would get a refund.

Most like its a "refund to steal wallet" so you still got to spend the money in there as it turns out. altrough ive seen systems where you should get refunded in same way you paid, but for videogames its mostly refunded in store credit - so a replacement in this case.

Just because allows a group of people to abuse it does not make it a bad law either.
 

grigjd3

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Mar 4, 2011
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The thing is, they break this policy all the time. I've gotten refunds when the store page had false information.
 

Nikolaz72

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Apr 23, 2009
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BigTuk said:
Strazdas said:
BigTuk said:
Strazdas said:
BigTuk said:
erttheking said:
Christ I wish we had something like this in the States. Well, hope the ACCC wins this one.
Didn't work when the Germans tried it... and believe it or not.. Steam already gives refunds...when the product is genuinely unplayable... but not meeting expectations is a nebulous term. If the game is unplayable or misleadingly advertized.. refund, otherwise... yeah.. it's on ye.
It did when UK tried it though! Whenever steam refuses a refund just cite the UK consumer law and bam - refund. that is if you live in UK. UK law states that a person has a right to return it in 7 days without giving a reason.

ALso germans didnt want a refund, they wnated a right to Resell (as they should by EU law)
WOw, so you're saying Under UK Law I could say purchase, a Book, comic, DVD, or a magazine and as long as I can plow through it in under 7 days I can get a refund? Damn! I could have free Books, DVDs and COmics for life!
Yes, you could. However reality shows that people abusing the law like that are very few. Of course, it allows some bad apples like your example, however this is the price i find acceptable to have decent consumer protection laws.

you know where you could also have free books, dvds and comics for life? piracy. but your not doing that now are you (or at least you wont admit due to rules of conduit here). Just because you can game the system does not mean that people will do it en mass.
Mmm-Hmmm... you need to take a closer study of human behaviour. See most countries with sensible laws don't allow a good to be refunded after the value of the good has been extracted. It'd be like asking for your money back at Wendy's after you've eaten your entire meal. Though i wonder if this inherently means a cash refund or a replacement...since really I can't imagine what sort of idiocy would allow someone to return a book and get their money back after they've already read it. That's a legal loophole big enough to fit Kim Jong Sun's crazy through.


Just because a law benefits a group you belong to doesn't make it a sensible or even good law.
I don't know about most countries. In my country you can get a refund for clothes in like up to 2 weeks if you don't destroy it completely and keep proof of purchase.

Electronics can be refunded for months if you don't like them as long as it Isn't say, a huge discounted sale.

Games have a months refund aswell, four times that of the U.K.

Yet, somehow people still sell Electronics/Games/Clothes here, and get very big profits in doing so.

It's like countries with a Welfare/Healthcare system, they trust people not to abuse it. And in the vast majority of cases they don't! It's amazing, it's almost as if most of humanity aren't terrible living creatures.

I once got refunds for various games that's had false advertisement in the past over steam. Rome Total War 2, Aliens Colonial Marines- some others come to mind like, Spore.

The newest Sim City when it wasn't even playable in the first few days here. Man, EA does it a lot truth be told, but at least they offer refunds. So it's alright in this case.
 

BlackJesus

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Aug 31, 2014
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Well, Steam has the review system, so people can easily see if someone else liked the game, what weaknesses and strengths it has, etc., so I personally never needed a refund. I can see how some people might want one though.
 

JohnNguyenSG

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Oct 20, 2014
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Interesting thread, and I hope that the ACCC wins this one. One common issue though is where retailers sell pre-owned redeemable products, such as CD Keys, etc. Because they are pre-owned, they cannot be redeemed again and so the subsequent purchaser has essentially wasted his or her money. Some stores will actually refuse to issue refunds, despite having a legal obligation to do so.

I think my blog bears some relevance to this thread: http://johnandmyself.blogspot.com.au/

Don't worry, it isn't particularly long and there's a nice summary for you all to read.

Extract:

BELOW IS A USEFUL SUMMARY OF THE EVENTS FOR THE READER'S CONVENIENCE.
?Terry Holt is a manager at an electronics store called JB-Hi-Fi, in Oxley, which is a suburb in Brisbane, Queensland
?One of my family members ordered a computer game on the JB-Hi-Fi website (https://www.jbhifi.com.au/) called Portal 2
?The computer game box contained the CD and a cardboard slip with a verification code required to install the game.
?The verification code was invalid because it had already been used, so the game could not be installed.
?Terry Holt refused to issue a refund even though a refund was supposed to be provided pursuant to store policy and the Australian Consumer Law (ACL)
?He suggested that me and my family member were engaging in refund fraud, despite being shown the receipt for the purchase
?He demanded communication transcripts with the developer and manufacturer as a condition to being issued a refund
?Eventually the Regional Merchandise Manager (RMM) apologised for Terry Holt's misconduct and gave a working verification code which allowed the game to be installed