Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines 2!!

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

This was a big red flag for me.
The WoD isn't a sensitive place. It's deliberately supposed to be a horrible place where everything is dirty and everyone is waiting to use whatever method they can to further their own ambition, by trying to be sensitive to people in such a setting you're just hobbling yourself narritivly.

World of Darkness, especially as seen through the lens of Vampire: The Masquerade is gothic horror set in urban fantasy. I can't speak for the new source books, but the old editions of V:tM always emphasized that gothic horror meant seeing the beauty in the darkness as much as it was about seeing the darkness itself. There's no coincidence that the Nosferatu of Bloodlines live in a collective and protect each other, because even in the darkness of looking monstrous and being shunned even by other monsters they can find kinship. VV's quest about dissuading an old lover and saving her from vampire hunters and the way she desperately tries to gain the affection of the player character is similar.

Sure the WoD is meant to be a horrible, dark place where corruption, violence and crime runs rampant. It is also, to use the words of the developers, a place where you can feel sexy and powerful. Vampire is meant to be equal parts oppressive drama of violence and bestiality and power fantasy. The lure of the Beast for vampires is, after all, that they have all this power to wield against mortals and the constant temptation to do it. Now, it isn't much of a power fantasy if your character keeps getting put down by being misgendered, especially if you want to play a transsexual or non-binary character. Considering that White Wolf, with VtM in particular, where some of the leading RPG developers of the early 00's to work towards inclusiveness for everyone, irregardless of gender or ethnicity, the quote you're afraid of is a sign, to me, that the devs of Bloodlines 2 understand the heritage of their game. You can still show and tell some really dark shit even if you don't go straight for overt sexism, racism or classism against the actual player.

Did the games ever actually insult the player in the past? I would assume in-game characters being rude in any specific way is just the game's flavor and how it communicates to you that the character your character is interacting with is a jerk, which in a power fantasy is something that happens a LOT, and then you get the fantasy by overcoming them. I don't think a character "misgendering" your player character is something that is perpetrated on you, it's perpetrated on your character, like a million other horrible things that are gonna happen to your character. I'm sure you don't feel like someone's literally out to kill you for trying to kill your character so it doesn't make sense for you to feel "misgendered" if someone did that to your character either. It's just one more bad thing that happens. Isn't it odd in such a world for that to be the one bad thing that somehow does not happen?


I think the concern is that if you limit the scope of things you get to feel powerful by overcoming to only things that don't trigger people's modern sensibilities that you limit the power to be felt for overcoming them too, as well as limiting too many things that are genre staples.


If the opinion is that "people don't feel power by overcoming homophobia/sexual assault/what have you", that's a dumb opinion imo. Nobody should get to decide that. Each individual just has to experience the game and see for themselves how they feel about it. If they go into the game having already decided that for people that's a reason for worry.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

theres nothing in the original bloodlines thats more or less triggering than whats available today so this entire *pre*-possible outrage hand wringing is just that. hand wringing so you have something to talk about.

Yeah there's a mountain of baggage that comes with the VtM IP at this particular moment in time, that sadly actually has less to do with the actual game and its setting than personal vendettas between creatives, and Bloodlines 2 is basically predestined to be a complete internet outrage shit show no matter what happens. 5E has been a cluster fuck since day one, and Paradox more or less mercy-killed White Wolf outright over the Chechnya debacle. And, this is all within the greater landscape of Paradox being on thin ice with the torches-and-pitchforks crew thanks to Europa Universalis and Crusader Kings, but having managed until now to avoid controversy due to a low radar profile.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

If the opinion is that "people don't feel power by overcoming homophobia/sexual assault/what have you", that's a dumb opinion imo. Nobody should get to decide that. Each individual just has to experience the game and see for themselves how they feel about it. If they go into the game having already decided that for people that's a reason for worry.

I'll accept this only if the game equally mocks and insults you for being a cis straight white man.

You know, to give cis straight white men something to overcome.

"Equally" in this context meaning "based on the proportional occurrence in real life"? As in, if 0.3% of the world is trans, 99.7% of the insults being aimed at them and 0.3% of them being aimed at cis people for being normal. Then sure, I think that'd make sense.

It's not equal to pretend everyone in the world has just as much of a chance of being trans as they have of being cis, so insults behaving in this 50-50 way you're implying would severely disproportionately represent the trans population for no logical reason.

You could I guess make the story revolve around some weird coalition of lgbt vampires and putting them into every story and having your player char be persecuted by them if they're normal, in which case the inflated anti-cis sentiment would make sense and be fine. But you need something plot-based like that to have this make sense.


I mean, think about it, you know how in South Park they had a bathroom for "cissies", intended to parody people thinking being cis is somehow noteworthy. I don't think you can make people insult you for being cis with any form of regularity and have it not come out as some type of joke or self-parody, no matter how earnestly you go about it.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

If the opinion is that "people don't feel power by overcoming homophobia/sexual assault/what have you", that's a dumb opinion imo. Nobody should get to decide that. Each individual just has to experience the game and see for themselves how they feel about it. If they go into the game having already decided that for people that's a reason for worry.

I'll accept this only if the game equally mocks and insults you for being a cis straight white man.

You know, to give cis straight white men something to overcome.

"Equally" in this context meaning "based on the proportional occurrence in real life"? As in, if 0.3% of the world is trans, 99.7% of the insults being aimed at them and 0.3% of them being aimed at cis people for being normal. Then sure, I think that'd make sense.

It's not equal to pretend everyone in the world has just as much of a chance of being trans as they have of being cis, so insults behaving in this 50-50 way you're implying would severely disproportionately represent the trans population for no logical reason.

You could I guess make the story revolve around some weird coalition of lgbt vampires and putting them into every story and having your player char be persecuted by them if they're normal, in which case the inflated anti-cis sentiment would make sense and be fine. But you need something plot-based like that to have this make sense.


I mean, think about it, you know how in South Park they had a bathroom for "cissies", intended to parody people thinking being cis is somehow noteworthy. I don't think you can make people insult you for being cis with any form of regularity and have it not come out as some type of joke or self-parody, no matter how earnestly you go about it.

no you're purposefully obfuscating this

let's say there's a character in the game that insults the player character, and their insults are tailored to the players choices. obviously some people are going to play straight cis characters so they need some insults too.

here, I've written some

"You're a vampire with the supernatural ability to sexually stimulate and attract anyone you want and you *only* fuck cis women?"

"you're going to live for hundreds of years as an immortal sex god and you're *really* set on being a man the whole time? BoooOOOORRING"

"I didn't know boys who regularly posted on 4chans /pol/ board left their room enough to be sired by a vampire."

"you're so pale I would have assumed you were a thin blood if I didn't know better. go get a tan."

see these are fun

you try

Ok so, this is interesting.

Your supposed insulter would need to be someone who for some reason doesn't go for the lowest hanging fruit of insults but is specifically interested in only making sexuality-based insults for that to make sense. As in, the guy wouldn't insult a short fat bald guy with a crooked arm and no teeth for any of those traits despite them being obvious and easy to make fun of but rather for him being straight. And even then, I think if that very very unfortunate guy was a Gangrel, a bestiality insult would make more sense than a cis one. Maybe a combined one? "Do you only fuck female sheep too?" or something like that.


I think that such a character is interesting but needs some form of establishing for them to make sense and not have it come off as contrived, and you can't have the entire game's worth of characters be that person (without the aforementioned lgbt vamp gang plotline) or it'll feel forced.



But yeah, if you put in the proper foundation such a character would be great. They should be in~

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I just can't believe that some people are upset that an RPG will feature a lot of choices and options to play with. But since it does upset a lot of people, I hope it upsets them to their very core. At least it will be fun to observe those freaks.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

If the opinion is that "people don't feel power by overcoming homophobia/sexual assault/what have you", that's a dumb opinion imo. Nobody should get to decide that. Each individual just has to experience the game and see for themselves how they feel about it. If they go into the game having already decided that for people that's a reason for worry.

I'll accept this only if the game equally mocks and insults you for being a cis straight white man.

You know, to give cis straight white men something to overcome.

"Equally" in this context meaning "based on the proportional occurrence in real life"? As in, if 0.3% of the world is trans, 99.7% of the insults being aimed at them and 0.3% of them being aimed at cis people for being normal. Then sure, I think that'd make sense.

It's not equal to pretend everyone in the world has just as much of a chance of being trans as they have of being cis, so insults behaving in this 50-50 way you're implying would severely disproportionately represent the trans population for no logical reason.

You could I guess make the story revolve around some weird coalition of lgbt vampires and putting them into every story and having your player char be persecuted by them if they're normal, in which case the inflated anti-cis sentiment would make sense and be fine. But you need something plot-based like that to have this make sense.


I mean, think about it, you know how in South Park they had a bathroom for "cissies", intended to parody people thinking being cis is somehow noteworthy. I don't think you can make people insult you for being cis with any form of regularity and have it not come out as some type of joke or self-parody, no matter how earnestly you go about it.

no you're purposefully obfuscating this

let's say there's a character in the game that insults the player character, and their insults are tailored to the players choices. obviously some people are going to play straight cis characters so they need some insults too.

here, I've written some

"You're a vampire with the supernatural ability to sexually stimulate and attract anyone you want and you *only* fuck cis women?"

"you're going to live for hundreds of years as an immortal sex god and you're *really* set on being a man the whole time? BoooOOOORRING"

"I didn't know boys who regularly posted on 4chans /pol/ board left their room enough to be sired by a vampire."

"you're so pale I would have assumed you were a thin blood if I didn't know better. go get a tan."

see these are fun

you try

Ok so, this is interesting.

Your supposed insulter would need to be someone who for some reason doesn't go for the lowest hanging fruit of insults but is specifically interested in only making sexuality-based insults for that to make sense. As in, the guy wouldn't insult a short fat bald guy with a crooked arm and no teeth for any of those traits despite them being obvious and easy to make fun of but rather for him being straight. And even then, I think if that very very unfortunate guy was a Gangrel, a bestiality insult would make more sense than a cis one. Maybe a combined one? "Do you only fuck female sheep too?" or something like that.


I think that such a character is interesting but needs some form of establishing for them to make sense and not have it come off as contrived, and you can't have the entire game's worth of characters be that person (without the aforementioned lgbt vamp gang plotline) or it'll feel forced.



But yeah, if you put in the proper foundation such a character would be great. They should be in~

being short or fat isn't limited to the cis experience though


im just afraid straight white cis men are being left out here. theres nothing really inherent about them to overcome triumphantly and Im afraid they're receiving less of an experience

That's probably true but I think it's a small sacrifice for someone to get to rp as who they like.

I tend to play as the "weird one out" races in most of these kinds of self-insert style rpgs (Qunari in Dragon Age, Orc in TES etc.) since that's most removed from my experience hence most novel for a similar reason. I think playing as the default human knight dude (Nord/imperial in skyrim for example) is kinda dull in most wrpg stuff anyhow.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

This was a big red flag for me.
The WoD isn't a sensitive place. It's deliberately supposed to be a horrible place where everything is dirty and everyone is waiting to use whatever method they can to further their own ambition, by trying to be sensitive to people in such a setting you're just hobbling yourself narritivly.

Yes and no. Back in the day, the World of Darkness was the refuge for all the weird queer kids in the TTRPG space

Because while yeah, you were a fucked up monster, but so was everybody else, and you were a fucked up monster that got to belong and either be powerful or rage against the fucked up monster status quo. Shape shifting, reality warping body sculptors tended to appeal to folks who didn?t otherwise fit in to society?s rigid definitions of acceptable ways to be. Kinda like how being a corporate Shaodowrunner was *supposedly* the way of being a sellout.

Or in short, what you get out of the WoD and what a lot of other people get out of the WoD are vastly different things

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

This was a big red flag for me.
The WoD isn't a sensitive place. It's deliberately supposed to be a horrible place where everything is dirty and everyone is waiting to use whatever method they can to further their own ambition, by trying to be sensitive to people in such a setting you're just hobbling yourself narritivly.

Yes and no. Back in the day, the World of Darkness was the refuge for all the weird queer kids in the TTRPG space

Because while yeah, you were a fucked up monster, but so was everybody else, and you were a fucked up monster that got to belong and either be powerful or rage against the fucked up monster status quo. Shape shifting, reality warping body sculptors tended to appeal to folks who didn?t otherwise fit in to society?s rigid definitions of acceptable ways to be. Kinda like how being a corporate Shaodowrunner was *supposedly* the way of being a sellout.

Or in short, what you get out of the WoD and what a lot of other people get out of the WoD are vastly different things

Again, not what I was talking about.

I'll try to clarify:
The Jeanette/Therese dynamic in Bloodlines is one of the highlights of the game in Bloodlines because the questline is well written (IMO), most of us didn't see the twist coming and it's really the first time you're exposed to the personality flaws that result in being a vampire (what with clan traits amplifying certain aspect of the psyche). If it was submitted to the Bloodlines 2 writers it probably would have been trashed because it involves sexual abuse of children, Jeanette's whole personality (not even thinking about her appearance) would be considered misogynistic and there's some slut shaming in there as well (I don't remembr every line of dialogue, this is off the top of my head). If you're being sensitive to players then the whole thing is a big pile of offensive content that would upset people, so into the trash it goes. I just don't see storylines like that being written into Bloodlines 2 if they worry about offending people.

I'm focusing on Jeanette and Therese btw, because every 8 month or so I revisit Bloodlines and usually I at least get to the second hub, so I'm more familiar with them. If we want we can talk about the human traffiking questline in Chinatown or murdering a stripper in Hollywood or the fairly lengthy quest involving a snuff film and an exploitation porn studio we can do. I just don't think the atmosphere would be the same if you avoid writing about subjects that make people might find (for lack of a better word) triggering.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Again, not what I was talking about.

I'll try to clarify:
The Jeanette/Therese dynamic in Bloodlines is one of the highlights of the game in Bloodlines because the questline is well written (IMO), most of us didn't see the twist coming and it's really the first time you're exposed to the personality flaws that result in being a vampire (what with clan traits amplifying certain aspect of the psyche). If it was submitted to the Bloodlines 2 writers it probably would have been trashed because it involves sexual abuse of children, Jeanette's whole personality (not even thinking about her appearance) would be considered misogynistic and there's some slut shaming in there as well (I don't remembr every line of dialogue, this is off the top of my head). If you're being sensitive to players then the whole thing is a big pile of offensive content that would upset people, so into the trash it goes. I just don't see storylines like that being written into Bloodlines 2 if they worry about offending people.

I'm focusing on Jeanette and Therese btw, because every 8 month or so I revisit Bloodlines and usually I at least get to the second hub, so I'm more familiar with them. If we want we can talk about the human traffiking questline in Chinatown or murdering a stripper in Hollywood or the fairly lengthy quest involving a snuff film and an exploitation porn studio we can do. I just don't think the atmosphere would be the same if you avoid writing about subjects that make people might find (for lack of a better word) triggering.

And what I think me, AltnameJag and others are reacting to is that you are conflating writing about dark and sensitive issues and respecting the players choices. If a player makes the choice to play a transsexual or non-binary character and the game reacts appropriately by changing dialogue when appropriate, that's cool reactivity. It also says nothing about the writing, mood or topics of the stories in the game. One can be an ultra-progressive feminist and still write a story about sex trafficking, in fact, one might argue that a feminist take on such a story would be more topical and probably better suited for WoD (as it'd be a horror story of desperate women being easy prey for evil men) then a more traditionally masculine take on the issue (Kill evil men, optionally have sex with quest giver girl as reward). Being aware of the sensitivity and topicality of many of the subjects routinely touched upon in the WoD is not a drawback, it is an important aspect in making sure that these issues are treated with respect instead of having them become rote backdrops for murder-hobo gameplay.

I mean, the reason no one is making a fuzz about the Voerman-plot is that it is genuinely well done. Jeanette and Therese are both compelling characters in their own right and the reveal of their actual relation is shocking but deliberately paced. The fact that the only way to get the best resolution is to not take Jeanette up on her flirting or succumb to Therese scheming is also a testament to the writer understanding the sensitivity of the issues brought up in the plotline. That's not because the writer was all about being an edgelord who wanted to include incest and sex molestation of children as a dark and provocative ingredient in a quest. It is because the writer understood that writing about those topics and making an engaging quest out of it requires a deft touch and an awareness of the volatility of the issue.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Again, not what I was talking about.

I'll try to clarify:
The Jeanette/Therese dynamic in Bloodlines is one of the highlights of the game in Bloodlines because the questline is well written (IMO), most of us didn't see the twist coming and it's really the first time you're exposed to the personality flaws that result in being a vampire (what with clan traits amplifying certain aspect of the psyche). If it was submitted to the Bloodlines 2 writers it probably would have been trashed because it involves sexual abuse of children, Jeanette's whole personality (not even thinking about her appearance) would be considered misogynistic and there's some slut shaming in there as well (I don't remembr every line of dialogue, this is off the top of my head). If you're being sensitive to players then the whole thing is a big pile of offensive content that would upset people, so into the trash it goes. I just don't see storylines like that being written into Bloodlines 2 if they worry about offending people.

I'm focusing on Jeanette and Therese btw, because every 8 month or so I revisit Bloodlines and usually I at least get to the second hub, so I'm more familiar with them. If we want we can talk about the human traffiking questline in Chinatown or murdering a stripper in Hollywood or the fairly lengthy quest involving a snuff film and an exploitation porn studio we can do. I just don't think the atmosphere would be the same if you avoid writing about subjects that make people might find (for lack of a better word) triggering.

And what I think me, AltnameJag and others are reacting to is that you are conflating writing about dark and sensitive issues and respecting the players choices. If a player makes the choice to play a transsexual or non-binary character and the game reacts appropriately by changing dialogue when appropriate, that's cool reactivity. It also says nothing about the writing, mood or topics of the stories in the game. One can be an ultra-progressive feminist and still write a story about sex trafficking, in fact, one might argue that a feminist take on such a story would be more topical and probably better suited for WoD (as it'd be a horror story of desperate women being easy prey for evil men) then a more traditionally masculine take on the issue (Kill evil men, optionally have sex with quest giver girl as reward). Being aware of the sensitivity and topicality of many of the subjects routinely touched upon in the WoD is not a drawback, it is an important aspect in making sure that these issues are treated with respect instead of having them become rote backdrops for murder-hobo gameplay.

I mean, the reason no one is making a fuzz about the Voerman-plot is that it is genuinely well done. Jeanette and Therese are both compelling characters in their own right and the reveal of their actual relation is shocking but deliberately paced. The fact that the only way to get the best resolution is to not take Jeanette up on her flirting or succumb to Therese scheming is also a testament to the writer understanding the sensitivity of the issues brought up in the plotline. That's not because the writer was all about being an edgelord who wanted to include incest and sex molestation of children as a dark and provocative ingredient in a quest. It is because the writer understood that writing about those topics and making an engaging quest out of it requires a deft touch and an awareness of the volatility of the issue.

I think you're kinda contradicting yourself. Was the game prior this sort of "masculine" thing or was it well written by someone who understood how to treat sexual abuse stories without them actually being a feminist or what have you? If it was the latter, do you even gain anything by changing this up outside of ticking more boxes? It sounds to me the masculine fantasy handled things just right and it also gave you more options to play around with if you were so inclined.

Would it be better to remove some options or what? What's the issue with it?


I'm always gonna be skeptical of "person of group X is by definition more topical" claims. In the end you just want a good story and if the good story is written by someone who isn't who you'd expect to write it that's an even greater accomplishment to rejoice over, not something to bemoaningly accept. If the story isn't good then similarly it wasn't good and it's not some type of failure at being this group of person that was the cause, the writer was just bad. I wouldn't absolve someone of the responsibility of their actions with the excuse of "of course you couldn't write this story, you aren't X".

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I think you're kinda contradicting yourself. Was the game prior this sort of "masculine" thing or was it well written by someone who understood how to treat sexual abuse stories without them actually being a feminist or what have you? If it was the latter, do you even gain anything by changing this up outside of ticking more boxes? It sounds to me the masculine fantasy handled things just right and it also gave you more options to play around with if you were so inclined.

I can't speak for the politics of the writers of Bloodlines, though since the sequel has the same writing team we can safely assume that they are pretty progressive today. More pertinently, my first paragraph was a hypothetical example of how a storyline can be written with two different focuses, the second paragraph was a discussion on the actual Voerman plotline in the first game. That's besides the point that someone who uses a highly masculine tone can still deliver a solid point (see Conan the Barbarian, Starship Troopers for examples) or write a good plotline, but that a hypermasculine tone might not be right for a setting like the WoD.

Would it be better to remove some options or what? What's the issue with it?

I'm always gonna be skeptical of "person of group X is by definition more topical" claims. In the end you just want a good story and if the good story is written by someone who isn't who you'd expect to write it that's an even greater accomplishment to rejoice over, not something to bemoaningly accept. If the story isn't good then similarly it wasn't good and it's not some type of failure at being this group of person that was the cause, the writer was just bad. I wouldn't absolve someone of the responsibility of their actions with the excuse of "of course you couldn't write this story, you aren't X".

I don't disagree with you. My point all along was that Here Comes Tomorrow is worried about the writers including the ability to choose the pronoun used to address the PC because he fears it is a sign that the writers will not be able to portray the gothic horror of WoD in a proper fashion because they will be too busy not offending anyone. I think it is an unfounded fear, based more on identity politics then the actual writing chops of the writing team. And what you just wrote here is pretty much my point, that just because you're a social progressive that doesn't mean you lack the ability to write engaging stories about dark content.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I don't disagree with you. My point all along was that Here Comes Tomorrow is worried about the writers including the ability to choose the pronoun used to address the PC because he fears it is a sign that the writers will not be able to portray the gothic horror of WoD in a proper fashion because they will be too busy not offending anyone. I think it is an unfounded fear, based more on identity politics then the actual writing chops of the writing team. And what you just wrote here is pretty much my point, that just because you're a social progressive that doesn't mean you lack the ability to write engaging stories about dark content.

Yeah, it may be favor for this lore but I don't see anything worrisome yet. I'm the type of person to focus on what I like about something and there's a ton to like about what I've seen in this game. I think people are hyper-sensitive about games trying to sell themselves on being progressive when they have nothing else to offer but if it's the same writers, even if their politics changed they still will be very talented.

Hell, who knows how many pronouns they'll let you use. Maybe they'll not just let you use the 50some ones on facebook but make up their own ones to poke fun at people or even just let you type in your own XD. (I still wanna use Dinosaur King as mine)

 

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, I don't have a problem with WoD stuff being a bit sanitised. I mean, it's canon that you have werewolfs having sex with normal dogs to keep up their numbers. Not going to mind if that is cut.

Less flippantly (though that is a thing werewolves (and others) in WoD do), dealing with issues respectfully isn't the same as not dealing with them.

Though, the game did state that sex workers and homeless people are objectively lesser people than middle or upper class, and LA (barring Chinatown) was very white for some reason.

 

[Schadrach]

I mean, Split and Crazy Jane from Doom Patrol say hi i guess.

Were those trying to be sensitive to today's political climate? They said that they felt the originals portrayals of sex work and mental illness were problematic and the need to "punch up", which would back the notion that something like the Voerman sisters wouldn't fly in Bloodlines 2.

I can't see them cutting the Malkavian as they were so essential to the original Bloodlines experience, so I think we'll be getting them, and I think the last tab marker either covers the Toreador or the Thinbloods, as the Gangrel would likely get an image representative of their wilder nature.

I'm not sure how clan is going to work in this game, unless you commit diablerie fairly early on (Camarilla *do* dangle diablerie of the target of a Bloodhunt as a special reward for thin bloods). The player is a thin blood created in a mass embrace.

Thin bloods (14th/15th generation) don't possess clan traits because the curse is so weak in them (meaning no becoming deformed as a Nos). 14th generation have trouble embracing, and 15th can't do it at all. Neither can make blood bonds (and thus can't ghoul anyone, like the girl from the original Bloodlines). Etc, etc.

If a thin blood commits diablerie and lowers their generation to 13, they gain the clan traits of whoever they ate, rather than who sired them.

Hell, custom pronouns, genders, and appearances is probably going to utterly piss off more people than whatever 'freaky' thing you're afraid they might scrub out (the original bloodlines is probably one of the most sanitary pieces of vampire media out there so I'm not entirely sure what you're afraid of). To the average member of the regressive gaming culture nothing is more ~unsanitary~ than acknowledging more than two genders. So it looks like the developers are on the right triggering track!!!1!

That depends, if Malkavians are playable I can certainly see "trans Malkavians" (you know, they're crazy because trans or "I identify as a Garou") becoming a meme, and people getting upset about it, and it becoming a whole *thing*. Besides, Malkavians as a whole aren't "woke" these days, and if appealing to "wokeness" is a goal...

5E has been a cluster fuck since day one, and Paradox more or less mercy-killed White Wolf outright over the Chechnya debacle.

That's the one where the setting that claims that most of history is just a cover for the actions of the Kindred suggested that the persecution of homosexuals in Chechnya was another example of exactly that, and the alphabet soup crowd got angry and White Wolf was essentially slain in sacrifice to them?

Though, the game did state that sex workers and homeless people are objectively lesser people than middle or upper class

...in terms of quality as a food source.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

That's the one where the setting that claims that most of history is just a cover for the actions of the Kindred suggested that the persecution of homosexuals in Chechnya was another example of exactly that, and the alphabet soup crowd got angry and White Wolf was essentially slain in sacrifice to them?

No, Chechnya was just round four or...five, maybe? and it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. The reality is this has been ongoing drama for five or six years now, including a direct byline (thanks to involved personalities that attached themselves to the drama for personal gain) through a certain event four and a half years ago that isn't an allowed topic of discussion here, so the less said about that part of it the better.

I won't be naming names, for obvious reasons, but I'm sure a bit of e-sleuthing can reveal the juicy details.

The short story is, it's a handful of disgruntled Onyx Path writers and their associates, who were either mad they weren't brought in to work on 5E (mostly this), or quit in protest of a certain artist being brought on to consult and do some freelance work (this is an excuse). Instead of be an adult about it and move on with their lives, they waited (often years) to push personal vendettas by exploiting contemporary political issues. Pretty much every personality involved, including Smith and his associates, is a drama monger of the highest caliber, known for strong defamatory streaks, and generally high quality lolcows all around.

They tried at first attacking WW via sock puppetry, but the actual identities were quickly discovered because they acted the damn fool, but that didn't stop allegations of doxxing let alone allegations waged against fairly popular and well-regarded members of the online VtM community, who ended up revenge doxxed. It's pretty well split the VtM community right down the middle between people who realize it's all down to garbage people behaving badly in public, and people who for some reason buy the bullshit and are being useful idiots.

Just imagine a pair of hobos arguing over who gets to put out a dumpster fire by pissing on it. The argument turns physical, and while the dumpster fire rages and grows out of control, the two hobos end up pissing on each other instead.

It had quieted down when WW bent the knee, and when VtM 5E released predictions it wouldn't be very good were vindicated, and most people went right back to Revised or V20. Then the Chechnya shit happened, and it's right back to square one.

 

[Callate]

No matter how storied the pedigree, it's difficult for me to get that excited about any game until they provide something more than a trailer of pretty pre-rendered concept art.

Vtm:B was a bit of a mess. Often a pretty, imaginative, interesting mess, a mess that was worth spending some time peeling apart, but those end bosses, that ending... I suppose one could say that it's authentically White Wolf in that it talks a good game about individuality and player choice and then expects you to be all enraptured as their stylishly crafted NPCs go on and more or less do the plot without you.

It's one better than a Kickstarter in that they're actually promising that you'll get a game out of it, but I would definitely wait for reviews before I shelled out for this one. (And possibly the GOTY with all the shiny DLC they're trying to massively overcharge you for right now.)