Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Daystar Clarion said:
spartan231490 said:
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Why? Because people are illogical. It doesn't make any sense, and if you follow veganism to it's logical conclusion, it doesn't result in peace and happiness for all of the little animals, but extinction.
Please enlighten me, why would it?
Cows and chickens are only alive because we help them stay that way. They don't have the defenses or drive to survive the wilderness. Sheep are in a similar boat. They have some drive, but they feed mostly on grasses, meaning there is a very limited region in which they could survive, and they're slow and relatively small, leaving them vulnerable to predators. Even coyotes can take sheep, and that's while they're being protected by the farmers.
Virtually all domesticated animals lack what it takes to survive in the wild anymore, we've made sure of that. Without the farmers who raise them, they would die, and that's assuming the farmers let them go wild, instead of just slaughtering them for convenience, or selling them to anyone who would buy(glue factories, research institutes).
Abandon4093 said:
Never said anything about being a righteous saviour, you just wanted to know why they'd die if we stopped needing them. I told you.
Ok the righteous think was out of order, apologies, and I already knew what the responce would be because its the same every time, 'if we didn't do time they would die' but like I said it is still fucked up and not a good reason to continue doing it.
You're right, it's not a good reason to keep doing it. A good reason to keep doing it is because meat and milk is tasty and animals lack sentience, so therefore they're abysmal treatment is not of great concern. However, it is a good reason not to stop, since cessation of farming activities would lead to the wholesale extinction of half a dozen species or more.
I'm all for coming up with more humane ways to farm, but being a vegan will not accomplish that, if anything it will hinder it because it with less money available in the business less profitable methods of conducting it are more likely to fail.
Except animals
are sentient.
Sapience is what separates humans from animals.
A sentient creature can still feel pain and emotions. Those emotions may not be as advanced as our own, but you're still a dick if you torture an animal.
I don't think we should stop eating meat, but I also believe in animal welfare, and that any animals under our care should be kept healthy and happy until the day they die.
Whether they're a dog, cat, cow or pig.
Just because we eat meat, doesn't mean we need to cause unnecessary suffering.
Did you not even read my post? I said I was all for finding more humane methods of farming.
That aside, there are many definitions of sentience, I personally follow the definition put forth in Stargate SG-1. A creature that is sentient is self-aware, fears their own death, is conscious, and can think independently. I just don't feel that animals fall into that category, and I'm far from alone in the matter. A quick google search will show that any conclusion about animal sentience is hotly contested.
Two things wrong here, 1: your getting your definitions from SG-1, seriously?
2: All creatures fear death, thats how they know to get the fuck out of the way when they see a bus heading toward them.
The fact is, sentient or not, we are superior to animals,
WHY! seriously no one has properly answered this yet.
and I have no moral obligation to treat them as my equal. I would not wish for an animal to be put through unnecessary suffering, but I do not value their comfort so much that I will spend extra money, let alone put my health at risk, or force myself to second guess every meal to make sure it's not only vegan but that it also provides enough protein and minerals to replace the nutritional benefits of meat, just to save them from discomfort.
This part is just depressing, you have no moral obligation to do anything, so phff why the fuck even bother right.
Your health wouldn't be at risk, look, I'm typing and not dieing, vegans can do that now.
I'm pretty sure that death is a little bit more than just "discomfort".
Further, anyone who says they do is lying, because if they did, they would sell their gaming supplies to donate to the SPCA or to save the tigers, or to prevent deforestation, or even going out into the wilderness to provide food and shelter to wild animals during harsh winters. Life is cruel and painful, I will not make mine more so just to make an animal's less so.
NO I AM NOT LYING, don't look down, belittle, or trivialise anyone else's believe just because it differers from your own, that is called being a dick.
Not that any ones spending habits or moral views for that matter are any concern of yours, but just so you know I hardly spend any money on anything, all second hand, I wan't to save my money my entire life so that when I die it will all go to animal conservation in Africa. I'm not telling you how you should live your life you don't tell me how I should live mine, deal.
As I say in this post here, I'm not using that definition just because I feel like it, I am using that definition because it measures the qualities that I care about. Had I known that so many of you would throw a fit about it, I would have just listed those qualities in the beginning, but I was trying to save time. That'll teach me.
spartan231490 said:
LittleShe-Bear said:
spartan231490 said:
That aside, there are many definitions of sentience, I personally follow the definition put forth in Stargate SG-1. A creature that is sentient is self-aware, fears their own death, is conscious, and can think independently.
Uhm, a quick google search would also show that science fiction shows use sentience in a far looser way than philosophers do. I really don't think it's a good idea to rely on fictional tv shows for philosophical or scientific definitions. :/
I did a quick google search, but I don't care if a philosopher calls something sentient. I care about the qualities something possesses. I use that definition of sentience because those are the qualities that I care about. I could just list the qualities instead, but it's easier to say sentience, as from stargate. I don't believe that farm animals possess all of those qualities, so I don't believe that I have a moral obligation to concern myself with their suffering more than the convenience, health benefits, and price of a non-vegan diet.
As to your arguments no, all animals do not necessarily fear death, they react to it. That could and probably is just as likely to come from instinct as fear of death. To fear death you need to understand what it means, which means you need to have a concept of the future, something none of my dogs have ever had, and I believe they're a lot smarter than farm animals.
Further, deer and raccoons are higher mammals, and probably smarter than most farm animals, but despite their speed and experience seeing what happens to things that go in the road, they continually get hit by cars, often jumping out into the road just as a vehicle is about to drive through. Doesn't seem so very afraid of death to me.
Why are we superior to animals? You really asked that question. Chicken haven't invented an atomic bomb. Cows haven't developed a written language. Sheep don't have the ability to use tools. Our superiority is obvious, we have crossed oceans, flown through the air, dove to the depths of the sea, even visited the moon. Farm animals haven't even gotten as far as using tools.
I never said my health would fail, I said it would be at risk. Some smokers die of brain cancer or old age, would you claim that smoking isn't unhealthy. Further, it's possible to live for years, decades, even you whole life without consuming vegetables, are you going to claim that's healthy? It is much harder to get the required nutrients as a vegan(as I have made abundantly clear in 2 previous posts), and I for one, do not see maybes and almosts as compelling reasons to count every amino acid, every vitamin, every single omega fatty acid, and every mineral in every single meal, or risk having a deficiency in something truly important, just so a cow doesn't have to be milked. Even more so when putting myself through such hardship and risk will accomplish literally nothing.
And as for "just depressing" are you really trying to convince me to give up tasty and nutritious meat for ethical reasons when I have no moral obligation to do so? Do you even see the horrific contradiction and circular logic involved in that assertion.
Yes, I am a dick, and I'm kinda proud of that, because it means I don't just roll over and assent because you think I should. That said, I'm not "look down, belittle, or trivialise anyone else's believe just because it differers from your own". I am saying that if you really thought your comfort was any less important than that of animal, you would have sold all your gaming supplies, which exist solely for your comfort, in order to donate to organizations that assist and protect animals, or towards organizations that are trying to develop more humane farming methods. The fact that you don't(which is obvious since you have a computer to type with and internet access to come to this site) is absolute proof that you are not a vegan for moral reasons. I will not attempt to explain why you are a vegan, but don't try to tell me the sky is green without expecting me to point up and say that it isn't.
Further, I am not saying anything about how you should spend your money or live your life, I am pointing out that your actions belay the truth of your words. You are the one arguing on this website with the implicit intention of convincing me to be a vegan.