Vegetarians - why?

[psyks]

I hate the whole human superiority thing. What we do isn't natural.
If a human kills an animal it's acceptable, but if an animal kills a human IT'S EVIL AND DESERVES TO DIE!
We hoard animals up in fields and never allow them to live their whole lives, taking them out and slaughtering them before they get the chance to. And this is perfectly fine. Yet if an alien race came to Earth and started doing this or if an animal reached human intelligence and started doing it or something, THEY'RE EVIL AND HAVE TO BE DESTROYED!
To those people who always use the "WELL, ANIMALS WHO KILL OTHER ANIMALS IN THE WILD DO IT MUCH WORSE THAN WE DO" crap, think about it. Would you rather have every single human in the world hoarded into small areas their entire lives, and before any of them reach anywhere near the end of their lives, they're taken and slaughtered, or for humans to carry on living out their lives, passing away as normal, but every now and then a human's picked off?
Animals are living things too. I know for a lot of people it's near impossible for them to understand that, but they are. And they have every right to live as fully as we do. Nothing gives humans more right to live than them.

Right on dude! A lot of the more cognitively dissonant people in this thread probably read your post and muttered something about bleeding heart liberals, but I agree with you all the way. Fuck those selfish assholes that would torture and end lives for a sandwich.

The reason most people believe themselves to be superior to animals is simple. If natural selection said we were not superior, we would just let animals eat us.
So yes, I consider the survival of my own species to be more important than the survival of other species.

I imagine you hunt all your food, right? I'm fine with that. If you're living way off the grid and killing animals for food, then that's great. I'm not sure how you're using the internet, but good on you.
If, and I suspect this is probably the case, you live in an urban environment, then that's a closed system. You don't have any natural predators or any prey. You buy all your meat from a supermarket, who buys it from a farm, who probably kept their animals enclosed in a tiny cage, swimming in their own shit, cannibalising each other to stay alive and who felt fear when they were being taken to be slaughtered. When you buy milk, not only are you doing terrible things to your body, but you might also be supporting the veal industry (depending on the farm). The whole thing is a sordid business.
If natural selection said we were not superior, we would just let animals eat us? Which animals? The fucking cows you're killing? Are they going to eat you? chickens and pigs pose a threat do they? Of course they don't. Not only are you ending lives, but you're not even killing strong animals you pussy.

 

[Lexxi64]

I most probably shouldn't have clicked on this topic. Why people go on about vegetarianism I don't know, as meat eaters seemingly know everything us vegetarians have to say. They mention meat all the fucking time once they find out that you're vegetarian, so I try not to mention it-- I find them very insulting to not only me, but the animal they have had killed for their "meal", to boast about the taste etcetera. I am vegetarian because I've seen many videos of pigs/chickens being slaughtered, which made me realize that it is a disgusting inhumane thing to do. They're killed in front of eachother too; I saw a video where chickens were lined up in a cage, necks forward, ready for it to be chopped off. A machine with a blade then ripped through their necks one by one, the other chickens only able to await their turn. The very sad part is not only are they being killed for us selfish, lazy humans, but they actually had expressions and fear filled eyes. This is KFC's work and everybody just says what they cook is tasty but I highly disagree. Basically there are many reasons for becoming a vegetarian, and if you're so scared of getting a minor illness of anaemia because of vegetarianism then you're plain lazy, as there are alot of ways to overcome it, and it doesn't harm you as much as some other illnesses do. So, if you apparently "love" and "care" for animals, why don't you grow a pair and stop letting animals being killed for your so-called survival? Yes, humans were born as carnivores hence the teeth especially designed for tearing into meat, but we can change our ways, and it's for the best too.

 

[thylasos]

Can I be bothered to get involved in this? *Ponders*
No, not really because it is inevitable when someone asks why are you vegetarian and you answer because you've been asked it becomes a protracted debate which becomes not 'why are you?', but 'justify yourself, Oh, freak of nature' and then devolves into... 'Those f*cking vegetarians are trying to force their views on me again..' and endless quote pyramids as to why we are wrong and meat eaters are right. Majority rules, right?
Anyway, FWIW, since I am now involved..... *is annoyed with self for being dragged in*
I am vegetarian because I prefer animals to meat. It is just as simple as that... I like them alive *shrugs* anything beyond that and you might as well ask me why I don't smack my kids, why I like brown eyed men, and why I play RPGs and not FPSs. It is simply the way I am wired up. It is my choice for me and your choices for you are yours and yours alone

Don't forget the morons bleating on about bacon. Glad to see someone as sick of these discussions as I am.

 

[Treblaine]

I hate the whole human superiority thing. What we do isn't natural.
If a human kills an animal it's acceptable, but if an animal kills a human IT'S EVIL AND DESERVES TO DIE!

Evil is not an absolute construct. It IS relative and subjective.

If aliens come to kill us you can say:

"hey you can't kill me, I'm a vegan"

And see how far that gets you. I think anyone with any common sense would not submit to death just because they did the same to animals with minuscule brains that is barely capable of the most simple thought.

Illusion of moral superiority doesn't count for shit when you're dead.

 

[Treblaine]

Don't forget the morons bleating on about bacon. Glad to see someone as sick of these discussions as I am.

There are two types of people in the world:

"people who like bacon"

"people who pretend they don't like bacon"

 

[OhSnap]

This is most likely the last I'm going to say in this thread, if only because I'm seeing a lot of the same things over and over that I hear quite often from other people, and most of it as far as I'm concerned, isn't true. Also, it was 2:30am when I posted and I felt the need to clarify now that I'm actually able to think properly.


It's natural for humans to eat meat.

No arguing there. Humans are definite omnivores. Our digestive tracts are able to process meat and plants. However, it is quite easy to meet all the dietary requirements through a plant-based, animal product free diet. I've been a vegetarian for the last 10 years and I'm as healthy as any average person.

I would also like to point out the health benefits associated with a vegetarian diet.

It helps prevent and/or treat high blood pressure, heart disease, obesity, certain cancers and diabetes. A well publicised fact being flaunted by some margarine company is a diet high in plant sterols helps lower cholesterol.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090701103002.htm
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

Both sites are worth the read if you're interested in more details, they cover both the major arguments of insufficient iron and protein in a vegetarian diet and the health benefits associated of avoiding meats. You could also do your own research on it before commenting.


If we stopped eating animals, then we'd have to clear more land for crops!

No. Not at all. Entire ecosystems are destroyed to provide grazing land for beef cattle. Cows destroy soil quality and trample the land they inhabit, leading to erosion and the complete destruction of the environment. It takes 16lbs of grain to raise 1lbs of meat. To me, that just doesn't seem all that efficient. 70% of the grain and cereals grown go towards feeding animals raised for slaughter. Cattle alone consume the amount of feed needed to meet the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people.

One third of the fossil fuels used in the United States goes towards raising animals for human consumption. This includes raising the grains they require, transporting the feed to the animals, operating the factories, trucking the animals to the slaughterhouse, operating the slaughter house, transport to meat processing plants, operating those, transport the meat to stores, refrigerating the meat until it is purchased.

Many people turn off lights to conserve energy, then give themselves a pat on the back for being so energy efficient. However, not many people are willing to do anything more than flipping a switch.

Five thousand gallons of water are required to raise 1lbs of meat as opposed to only twenty five gallons required to raise 1lbs of wheat.

http://www.all-creatures.org/tytt/env-animalag.html


Yet another outbreak of some super bug! Oh noes!

The animals raised on factory farms are under such constant physical and psychological stress that they must be pumped full of antibiotics in order to survive the six weeks (in the case of hens raised for food) until they are slaughtered. This in turn leads to the bacteria and viruses that thrive in the cramped and disgusting conditions to become resistant to the antibiotics used in treatment.


http://www.smartplanet.com/technology/blog/science-scope/study-finds-super-bug-bacteria-in-meat-and-poultry/7854/
http://antibioticsresistance.smarthealth-guide.com/super-bugs-potential-in-meat-dairy-products-alarms-regulators/


Then of course we get to the meat of the issue (haha, cwutididthar?). The cruelty involved in the intensive "farming" used today.

I have already conceded that humans are naturally omnivorous. However, I cannot agree that the methods used in raising/slaughtering animals is natural.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/dairy/

I'm sure many people know the issues, but just choose to ignore them. After all, it's easier to live with yourself if you live in ignorance about where your nicely packaged bacon comes from. I wouldn't know, I gave into my conscience. I felt obligated to spare lives when I could very easily do so.


So in short.
I do it for my own health, the environment, etc...

As well as the ability to look down upon people from my moral high ground.



That was a joke by the way.

Though I really do recommend reading the sites I linked as sources, they are interesting and explain everything in a lot more detail than I provided. It already wound up being more of a wall of text than I had intended.

 

[thylasos]

Don't forget the morons bleating on about bacon. Glad to see someone as sick of these discussions as I am.

There are two types of people in the world:

"people who like bacon"

"people who pretend they don't like bacon"

How original.

 

[Nicarus]

Why not?

Problem solved, move along now.

 

[LightningBanks]

I am suprised nobody mentioned this yet:

No vegan diet, no vegan powers!

This is what I thought as soon as I saw the title.

Also, probably not why they do it, but for someone to turn vegetarian halfway through their lives would take alot of self control (Unless they dont like meat)

 

[jordz0005]

I'm kinda a vegetarian, the reason is: to save the animals (no hippyness intended) seriously, most vegetarians are that way because they've seen the animal slaughter and stuff, also, it's healthy for you

 

[Weskerbot3000]

bacause they're a bunch of hipsters

 

[oooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

No. I refuse to let you equate humans with mere farm animals, there is no equivalence.

It is insulting to all the humans in history who HAVE been treated like animals to be enslaved and murdered en-mass, and no just in history but continuing.

Just because a chicken has some semblance of a consciousness (unlike a plant) doesn't make their consciousness as valuable as a person. Animals don't just have a simple consciousness they have an alien consciousness, with virtually no common concepts or thought processes.

Yes, it's species-ism, just like eating plants is species-ism because we have yet to find a species with even a fraction of the cognitive worth of a human. Don't get me started on dolphins, they're playful and clever but they can't even talk, and chips, horrible creatures with an unbreakable instinct for violence and harming their loved ones.

And before you go as low as "but what about babies and brain injured people", babies grow up, people can recover from brain injuries.

It's worth spending millions of dollars sustaining a brain injured person if there is just the remotest chance they will recover some of their consciousness from brain-plasticity as even then it's more valuable than a chimpanzee.

I would only object to killing an animal for food it it was indicated it may have some consciousness of worth or may come to something.

Being different and being worth less are not the same thing. A sheep's consciousness and mind does certainly function very differently to a human's, but so what? I fail to see any rationale there for believing its life is worth less than the life of any other conscious being, humans included.

And its not insulting to humans who get treated badly, that makes the assumption that the way animals are often treated is acceptable. Again, what makes it any more acceptable to treat animals 'like animals' as you say, than it is to treat humans as such.

 

[Hader]

if only about 10% of all humans have developed lactose tolerance enough to drink milk past infancy, I'd like to know why so much milk is sold, and why milk has been so heavily advertised as a necessity? ( I find the "got milk?" ads ridiculous)

overall with dairy, I think it boils down to, "It's not healthy or exactly nutritious, but it tastes good." This applies with meat as well

It really depends on ancestry. Most peoples that lived in northern Europe developed lactose tolerance, as they were usually cow/goat farmers. Milk is also a way to get vitamin D, which we synthesize using sunlight, something that northern latitudes don't get as much of at certain points of the year. So it is thought this was also a developed trait to make up for the vitamin D.

America has quite the population of norther European ancestry, so a great many people can drink milk because of it. I believe there is also a section of central Africa that also developed a lactose tolerance, so some with African American ancestry also have a chance for lactose tolerance.

 

[Hader]

As far as the topic if concerned, why do we even have to ask why? Excuse the irony, it's a real question. I'd understand the need to ask why if they were acting in a way that was dangerous or harmful, but they are just expressing a dietary choice.

A dietary choice not always made for the same reason. So I am asking the reasons behind the choice.

 

[FalloutJack]

Okay, I'm not a vegetarian OR vegan (There's a difference.), but I know some.

Why? Not entirely sure on them ALL...but I know that at least some are hit by the innate adorable nature of animals that we eat. As a meat-eater, I am fine with any explanation that people who don't eat meat have for their decisions in life. They're free to do that.

Equally, it is therefore only fair that they understand that I DO like meat. As long as there's a healthy respect for one another here, we're cool.

 

[Jenova65]

Don't forget the morons bleating on about bacon. Glad to see someone as sick of these discussions as I am.

There are two types of people in the world:

"people who like bacon"

"people who pretend they don't like bacon"

How original.

Don't know about you but I split my sides laughing at that..........
*sigh.....* It is why I try to avoid these sorts of discussions, and why I am pissed at myself for joining in.....

 

[Liudeius]

Most plants that have high protein tend to be labor intensive and short of nuts, the easiest ways our ancestors could get protein was by running a steer off a cliff and roasting it over a fire. And you are correct we are omnivores. You might want to look that up though because it means we were designed to eat plants AND meat. It doesn't take much for my canines to chew through a steak and the molars help too.

Also Captcha is on the fritz. If this works it is only because I have tried posting it over a dozen times. (That is not an exaggeration)

It is absurdly easy to get protein from non-meat products in modern times, and all herbivores get it from out in the wild anyway. Ever heard of bread, peanut butter, corn, peas, tofu. There are plenty of high protein (and in the case of tofu complete protein) sources. As I said to someone else, it doesn't matter what the past was, it matters what is now. If we are only caring about history, at one time we were herbivores, so apparently it is physically impossible for us to eat meat.

Animals that are carnivores tend to have sharp teeth, animals with flat teeth tend to be herbivores. It doesn't matter that you can cut through a walnut shell with a butterknife, you should be using a nutcracker. (This is a metaphor saying that while molars work for meat, it doesn't mean they are ideal for meat.)

 

[Liudeius]

with the right meats you can survive exclusively on meat.

humans are omnivores they eat everything as it's available and in the best balance they can

anyone that doesn't do this is part of natures "lets kill as many as we can to control this plague" system

doesn't make you stupid or wrong (excluding my opinion) just naturally inclined to not follow evolutions past tracks

if that came across as a vague cop out then it came out how intended it to

also vegetarian diets ARE NOT HEALTHIER

it all comes down to which has more unhealthy things involved
insects and disease may be more likely to end up in your meat but pesticide which is just as bad if not worse than those diseases (and parasites)

anyone that says otherwise is lying deceiving you or stupid

organic means a legally acceptable amount of chemicals were used on your veges and their should be a meat equivalent if you look for it

or skip the whole organic or not process and learn to wash and cook it properly

First off, those first few lines don't really make sense, you need to word your point more clearly.

Secondly, read my comment before you reply, I said "You cant survive WELL" on meat alone. Of course you can survive, but you miss out on many of the benefits of plants and therefore have a drastically shortened lifespan.

Just because we are omnivores doesn't mean it is healthy to eat meat, I would suggest you do some research if you seriously are trying to say that cow is healthy. (Make sure you use proper studies, nothing from the "Meat Eating Association of America", they would obviously have a bias.)

Scientific research shows that eating red meat reduces your life span and that eating certain plant materials increases your life span. If you think vegetarian diets or diets high in vegetables are not healthier, you really need to do some research. The only exception is fish, however omega-3 can be obtained from other sources as well.

You are correct that it doesn't make me stupid or wrong to be right while the one accusing me of being wrong is not even typing clearly enough to make an argument.

I never said anything about pesticides and parasites, reply to people who actually said those things. However, most pesticides, especially when washed off properly, have not been show to be detrimental to humans. I am however arguing the base health risks, hormones, anti-biotics, bacteria, and parasites in meat and pesticides and bacteria in plants do not matter in this argument.

 

[bootz]

I find it strange that I try to stay away from vegatables. I've got sick from 2 different restaurants from eating vegetables (Green Onions at chi chis and Tomatoes at a subway). Vegtables are not the heathlier choice, they have so may chemicals, fertilizers, and pesticides. Harvesters put soot and toxins right on the food. I actively avoid them unless I buy from a local grower.
I could wash them but plants absorb their nutrients from the enviroment, so they are inside of the parts we eat.
Have you seen how they are displayed in wal mart where every old lady has touched every piece of fruit there.

I like my saran wrapped fingerprint free meat.

Plants are living things too and they feel pain.

 

[Liudeius]

but nor would raw meat (which also must be cooked by the way to avoid disease and taste good.)

Actually not necessarily.
In Japan they love, yuke, which is high grade raw ground chuck mixed with raw quail egg.
It's eaten fresh and the food safety standards are quite high in Japan so there is not a problem with disease. In addition, I and most of the country find it quite delicious.
So, cooking meat is not necessary for food safety nor taste, it is only one method of doing so.

Well of course I know that some meat is eaten raw, but the meat that is most commonly eaten should be cooked, or in the case of things like ground meat, you would have to be insane to not cook.
However the commenter I was replying to tried to say you have to cook the majority of commonly consumed plants before you eat them, so I was replying that they don't need to be cooked, and all commonly consumed meats (in the US)need to be cooked or are at least expected to be cooked.
Perhaps I should have made this generalization more clear, but other than humans, all carnivores eat raw meat in the wild, I assumed it was obvious that it's POSSIBLE to eat raw meat, just not what is common.