Vegetarians - why?

[The Gnome King]

A high blood cholesterol is said to promote atherosclerosis and thus also coronary heart disease. But many studies (http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth2.htm) have shown that people whose blood cholesterol is low become just as atherosclerotic as people whose cholesterol is high.

You made a profile for this? Really?

Anyway... I'll go with the data from here:

http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/features/high-cholesterol-risks-top-2-dangers

And here:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-blood-cholesterol/DS00178

And a thousand other places over your study by this guy:

http://www.ravnskov.nu/about_the_author.htm#about

Atkins and he will be debunked. Atkins is dead already... isn't he?

There are a lot of people who eat little but meat who are in mint condition. Im one of them.

Good?

Obviously the denser food is sirloin even if the ration between calories and protein is less than that of broccoli it comes with a more complete set of amino acids. See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein

And we need all this protein why?

http://natural-health-and-fitness.com/dangers-of-too-much-protein/

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50900

Is it for the kidney damage, perchance?

Humans are unable to digest cellulose because the appropriate enzymes to breakdown the beta acetal linkages are lacking. The core argument you will find from dietary "science" as to why fiber is so all important is that it gives you better shits. Dont believe me? I encourage you to look this one up for yourself.

Cellulose provides bulk to stool; cellulose and fiber make up a portion of plant foods, yes. Adding bulk to stool in the form of plant material is a good thing, it means you don't need to go out and use laxatives or drink Metamucil in your water in order to use the toilet. All advantages there, methinks.

As for the portion of the plant that is non-fiber, it's digested and used like anything else. Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here that goes against what I originally said - humans have no problems digesting plants or living on plants.

One last word on cholesterol:

Framingham data show that only patients with cholesterol levels of less than 150 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dl) achieve the lowest coronary artery disease risk.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/prevmed/chol_heartdisease.html

And remind me... what is it that's the #1 cause of death in the US again? I can't seem to recall... I think it has something to do with the heart...

And again - really - a profile for this?

 

[oooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

Again the use of the word "discrimination" as a flat pejorative. It's illiterate.

Okay, fair enough, but I suspect you got my meaning anyway.

There is NOTHING wrong with discrimination in and of itself. Discrimination is telling the difference between things and making distinctions and judgements based on those.

Like discriminating between a bowl of shit and a bowl of chocolate.

Racial discrimination is wrong not because discrimination is wrong but because RACISM is wrong! Because racial differences are essentially trivial, far more important are the flexible social constructs attached to races i.e. racism.

I did qualify this discrimination as speciesism.

Discrimination is telling the difference between a dumb animal that has been bred for meat and a human being who was born to live and be a loved member of society. Also you don't eat humans regardless of that because of prion diseases, insects practice cannibalism because they are immune to such conditions. Most animals and especially mammals are very vulnerable.

Being bred to die doesn't make it anymore okay kill something, it wouldn't be ethical to kill a human that is bred to die (think some strange hereditary gladiator situation or something). You have not actually provided a reason as to why a cow's life is less valuable than a human's.

 

[The Gnome King]

It does clarify and actually lives up to the sensible nature that I assumed due to your earlier post. It's rather comforting to know that some people actually adopt vegan diets without being completely naive to how the meat industry (and health supplement and even fruit/veg industries) function...I'm rather sick of the stereotypical responses to these types of thread, yet seem to have a compulsion on clicking them and exposing myself to the stupid.

No problem. Like I said, I see food as fuel. If I thought eating eggs and steak and bacon was the healthy way to go - as I once did on a modified Atkins style diet - I'd be doing it.

I get blood work done often enough that I can readily see the effects of diet on my body; and I'm fairly sensitive to how I feel with what I eat. I eat what makes me feel good, therefore I eat vegan food with a few sensible animal-based supplements thrown in.

Fish oil capsules are great; all the healthy benefits of fish without actually having to eat fish. ;D (And thus, no mercury, minimal saturated fat, etc!)

 

[StBishop]

Have you never eaten green food (or fruits)? Just about anything in the produce aisle other than artichokes can be bitten into right there. It might not taste great, but nor would raw meat (which also must be cooked by the way to avoid disease and taste good.)

It doesn't matter what was history though, it matters what is now. Our bodies CAN survive on vegetables alone (assuming you ensure you get your protein), and can't survive well on only meat (you miss out on too many vitamins and minerals).

Also I edited my first comment to reply to your variety of meat comment if you care to read it.

False.

Meat is perfectly delicious raw, however only if of high quality.

I won't bother arguing any other points raised in the thread because I simply don't care enough. I'm interested to see a novel reasoning but I can't be bothered arguing about this topic, it's an exercise in futility.

 

[Verlander]

Just because we're omnivorous, doesn't mean we have a commitment to actually eat everything.

Some people just don't. I think the reasons behind vegetarianism are very telling about the person as well. The only problem I have is vegetarians or vegans who have that diet for "the environment", when a lot of the foods that they need to maintain a healthy body have to be shipped and flown in, therefore causing more damage to the environment than just growing a pair and eating some animal products.

Everything living that's consumable is fair game if you ask me. Animals don't have these moral quandaries, and neither should we.

 

[oooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

Okay, why don't we eat some species of animals? Are we being discriminatory to them? What about bugs? What about plants? Are we being discriminatory to plants by eating them and not wanting to eat animals, or being discriminatory for favouring meat to plants? If the discrimination argument is being used, then you can word anything you want to make it sound discriminatory.
It is illegal to eat humans, and I'm pretty sure doing so has ill effects. The large majority of species on this planet eat other species but not themselves.

Any argument that involves discrimination that isn't obvious or abhorrent is a bad argument.

Not eating other animals would be be discriminatory in that sense, yes. As for plants, well I'd say the reason we think it is unethical to kill something is because it goes against a conscious desire to live, which plants do not have.

Also, don't confuse legality with ethics, they are two different things.

 

[Verlander]

A *lot* of people are lactose intolerant.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001321/

Lactose intolerance is more common in people with Asian, African, Native American, or Mediterranean ancestry than it is among northern and western Europeans.

Lactose intolerance is very common in adults and is not dangerous. Approximately 30 million American adults have some amount of lactose intolerance by age 20.

To me, this means just don't eat the stuff. Dairy is horrible for you; I'd say worse than meat. It leeches more calcium from the body that it provides. If I had to eat animal products I would easily decide to add meat and fish back into my diet over dairy.

http://www.makingpages.org/health/calcium.osteoporosis.html

Not as many as you might think. I lived in America for a short while, and both of my brothers were diagnosed as lactose intolerant. We switched to non dairy alternatives (which, when considering even the dairy stuff is disgusting in the US, never mind the non dairy stuff), but nothing changed n their condition. Returned to the UK, and found out it was a load of bullshit, they had something else, which was cured with a single shot. For free on the health service, as opposed to very fucking expensive on the US "negotiable Hippocratic oath" system.

I'm not saying lactose intolerance doesn't exist, and it must be a massive pain if you really have it (the amount of things that have lactose in them is mental), but I also believe that it's very over/incorrectly diagnosed.

 

[StBishop]

This is something that I have never been able to fully understand; the reasons some people have for being vegetarians.

So I would just like to ask, to any vegetarian escapists here, why? What are your reasons for it?

I don't necessarily have a problem with it - though I do kinda hate to see people give up meat for the sole reason of animal cruelty and that pandora's box (so please don't open it unless you feel it's much more relevant, this is more for me to explore people's opinions rather than debate).

I go one step further; I'm a vegan. Don't eat any dairy products, either.

Why? Because adopting a vegan diet has my cholesterol level at about 125 with equally matched HDL and LDL cholesterol levels. I challenge any non-vegan to make that claim. With heart disease as the #1 killer in the US and with virtually NO heart disease at cholesterol levels under 150 it seems like a no-brainer to eat a plant based diet.

For me it's more about health reasons than it is animal rights. I think animals are fine to eat as a food source... I just don't think they're the healthiest food source for us. In an era where we can eat a plant based diet and take some supplemental B12 to fill in the gaps eating animal protein with all its accompanying saturated fat and cholesterol doesn't make sense.

It also keeps my wife and I slender. I dropped about 20lbs without trying when I adopted a vegan diet. It's important to eat a *healthy* vegan diet, mind you. Dr. Fuhrman, Dr. McDougall, and Dr. Dean Ornish (all can be Google'd) all have variations on a vegan diet that I find very healthful.

Are you vegan or do you practice a vegan diet?
There's a difference.
Also, honey, eggs etc. are they fine with you?

 

[Extragorey]

Well... Not vegetarian myself, but I have a friend who has NEVER eaten meat. Not because it's a religious thing; not because he loves animals; and not because he hates plants - but because he thinks meat is UNHEALTHY.
I mean seriously... Not eating meat is less healthy than eating meat. And it tastes nicer than the alternatives. People like that are just crazy, I think.

 

[The Gnome King]

Are you vegan or do you practice a vegan diet?
There's a difference.
Also, honey, eggs etc. are they fine with you?

I eat no animal products - no meat, no dairy, no eggs. Period. When I eat out at a restaurant I ask, if it's not a vegan establishment, how the food is prepared so I don't get "hidden" dairy in food. Etc.

I do eat honey on occasion.

I also take omega-3 fish oil capsules which are *not* vegan.

I suppose you could say I 'practice a vegan diet' but honestly, telling people that I am vegan usually gets the idea across quite nicely.

And all food is "fine with me" - I don't care what you eat; I care what *I* eat.

 

[Hinro]

I'm not strictly a vegetarian but I am the closest you can be without being one. There are very few meats that I like the taste of. They are Cottage roll, ham steak, calamari, fish, shrimp and veal. I can't stand steak or bacon and I can only have chicken every now and then without it tasting horrible. That being said, if I don't eat meat at least every two days then I will faint from iron deficiency. I could take pills but, as I'm still in school and, therefore, still living with my parents, I have meat forced on my plate anyways so I might as well eat it. I might not enjoy the taste but I hate wasting food more. If food is put in front of me I will eat it as I feel that animals should only be hunted for food and, by throwing out the food placed in front of me, it means that the animal gave up their lives for no reason.

 

[StBishop]

Are you vegan or do you practice a vegan diet?
There's a difference.
Also, honey, eggs etc. are they fine with you?

I eat no animal products - no meat, no dairy, no eggs. Period. When I eat out at a restaurant I ask, if it's not a vegan establishment, how the food is prepared so I don't get "hidden" dairy in food. Etc.

I do eat honey on occasion.

I also take omega-3 fish oil capsules which are *not* vegan.

I suppose you could say I 'practice a vegan diet' but honestly, telling people that I am vegan usually gets the idea across quite nicely.

And all food is "fine with me" - I don't care what you eat; I care what *I* eat.

What about other animal by-products (non-food) such as wool, leather etc?

I use to live with a full on Vegan who was pretty big into it.

I assume you know the type, the people who will rip people a new one for claiming to be a vegan and then accidentally eating fries that are cooked in blended oil rather than pure vegetable oil. She actually never did this to my knowledge but took it as seriously as those types.

I'm not having a go, just asking.

 

[Ekonk]

Because the industry of factory farming animals is a disgusting and unimaginably cruel one, and being a vegetarian is a protest against that travesty.

That's the reason my father is a vegetarian, at least. I eat meat once, twice a week?

 

[The Gnome King]

I use to live with a full on Vegan who was pretty big into it.

I assume you know the type, the people who will rip people a new one for claiming to be a vegan and then accidentally eating fries that are cooked in blended oil rather than pure vegetable oil. She actually never did this to my knowledge but took it as seriously as those types.

I'm not having a go, just asking.

Militant vegans who push their agenda on everyone are... annoying. I eat a vegan diet because after trying many and researching more, I concluded that it's the healthiest diet for me. I also tend to think it's the healthiest diet for people in general but I don't push health on anyone. (I don't walk up to smokers and rip cigarettes out of their mouths; I certainly am not going to complain if my mate at the pub wants a rare steak.)

I enjoy leather. I wear it, yes. As for wool, I have no problem with it.

In other words - the diet is for health, not any larger ethical philosophy. I do tend to think that a plant-based diet is healthier for the planet than a standard American heavy meat and dairy based diet; but that's not the reason I follow it.

I suppose I follow it out of pure, unadulterated selfishness.

 

[The Gnome King]

Interestingly some drugs which are proven to lower cholesterol arn't nessecerially good for reducing the risk of heart disease. Which indicates there are some factors beyond simply "cholesterol = bad".

Not that I'm arguing that there isnt masses of evidence linking high cholesterol to heart disease. Just pointing out other factors are out there.

Statins in general can be nasty, with nasty side effects. I'm glad I don't need them, and never will on a vegan diet. (Why take lipitor when I can just forego the steak?)

There are many factors involved with heart disease but cholesterol is a MAJOR one as most any doctor will tell you. Look up statistics on people with heart disease who have cholesterol levels below 150 for proof. Hell, ask a cardiologist.

 

[Tomo Stryker]

They're ungrateful.

My ancestors didn;t spend hundreds of thousands of years becoming the ultimate killing machines to forage. My brain needs protein so that I can devise new and easier ways to obtain protein.

Don't forget new ways to create mass killing machines that destroy our precious ecosystem which depends completely on us to keep it rotating around the sun.

That's right, I'm stereotyping so sue me. It doesn't matter if you eat meat or not, it isn't going to stop cruelty to animals. Also, a little fact here for the veggies (look it up on wikipedia) did you know that flowers and other plants actually feel pain?! Thought you should know that.

 

[Tomo Stryker]

Because the industry of factory farming animals is a disgusting and unimaginably cruel one, and being a vegetarian is a protest against that travesty.

That's the reason my father is a vegetarian, at least. I eat meat once, twice a week?

So hold on there, in theory if we all stopped eating meat, that would cause animals to never hurt? You have stated your father's opinion, but what is yours? I can imagine it would be difficult to obtain meat while you were still a teenager, let alone even think about eating it would bring his wrath down on you.

 

[robincb]

Because animals.

Or because they dislike the taste.

Not one, myself, but totally understand the most popular reasoning.

I mean, I'm apparently in the minority in that I find chocolate ice cream absolutely disgusting and terrible.

count youself lucky, i hate chocolate altogether, and you wouldnt know how many things contain it.

also
I LOVE MEAT!!!

 

[RicoGrey]

Because animals.

Or because they dislike the taste.

Not one, myself, but totally understand the most popular reasoning.

I mean, I'm apparently in the minority in that I find chocolate ice cream absolutely disgusting and terrible.

I hate chocolate ice cream

OT: Provided you do a vegetarian diet RIGHT, you will live longer.

http://modlife.com/elvira

Thats Cassandra Peterson(scroll down to see video), a vegetarian, at age 59. AGE...FIFTY...NINE. Not the hottest gal ever, but for 59, I am seriously considering a vegetarian diet.

 

[gabe12301]

Yes, but a lot of what humans can eat is simply due to the fact that we take time to cook our food. We really couldn't eat many greens otherwise. Our bodies aren't built for it as a main/only source of nutrition (raw of course).

It's really only detrimental nowadays though, because we have to mass produce it, and that is costly and dirty. Seeing it from say, an old fashioned hunter-gatherer society, and things change quite a bit there.

Human's aren't biologically designed to eat meat. Our saliva has been evolving over time to become more acidic to break down meat but it is nowhere nearly as effective as the saliva that carnivore's have. Our intestines are also the same as herbivores and considerably much larger than a normal carnivores. Also our so called "canine teeth" are also the same teeth shared by plant eaters such as primates. We do not have the same sharp teeth that a carnivore would have, such as the frontal teeth of a lion or wolf.

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

Well that's partially true. All modern carnivores evolved from herbivores, and their teeth didn't just drop and get replaced with sharp ones they evolved to eat meat over time by eating meat. So, no creature has any more rights to meat then us. And besides if humans didnt start eating meat then we wouldn't have had enough protien to evolve complex brains over the millenia.