Very Long Analysis of ME3 Ending, aka why the ending is great (spoilers)

monkeymo4d

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You know being one of the many people who found the ending to be bad I can sorta respect your opinion and in all honesty I can somewhat agree with some of your views on the ongoing themes in the game ( although I didnt like your little disingenuous assertion in the last paragraph -_-....sorry couldnt resist)
However that still doesnt change my opinion that the ending was severely lacking because of;

*Please note that these are my own thoughts and are completely subjective from person to person.Also I'm writing this in uni so spelling errors and grammar mistakes will be abundant.

1)Endings depend on war asserts. This arguably is the most subjective but in my opinion the most important point I can raise because it shows that Bioware wrote themselves into a corner. For example after two playthroughs one with 5000 war asserts and another with round about half of them and I can honestly say it really didnt make a difference. The whole going around the galaxy looking for allies to help fight theme was made redundant by the sheer power of the reapers which is poor GAME writing because if that's the case then why should I bother trying to get anyone else besides the turians when I know that having more allies will not have any effect on the ending or the crucible.Mass effect2 did a great job at rewarding players for the extra time and commitment they spent on the game and it seems ME3 ending actually felt like it was punishing long standing fans by not rewarding you for your extra effort.
A better way of showing how your allies have an affect on the endings would have been if you did not have both the geth and qurian fleet defending the crucuble it would be damaged reducing what the endings you could actually choose from. Or another way would be if you do not have krogan ground support your ground forces would get decimated leading to a harder and more challenging last level. Or having the salarians helping to build the crucible unlock other options.This would show that the players choices are taken into account.

2) Star kid/ catalyst logic???? Okay after going up the magic elevator and meeting the catalyst he goes" So it turns out that my Reaper solution wont work anymore...bummer ,but don't worry I will now give you 3 solutions which at this point are completely unnecessary or had insufficient foreshadowing, which will probably each have untold consequences..........." , to which I replied , " Oh that's neat..I guess but why are you giving me this choice when we've already established that any solution you give me will be not be permanent and in the case of 2 of the solutions the war your trying to stop will only be delayed while the other one just introduces more variables which don't really guarantee peace in fact it may create a bigger war." To which the catalyst replied "Because its easier and faster for Bioware to shoehorn you into this sort of ending rather than actually take into account each of your actions as they said they would *trollface*."


3)Plot holes. At this point your probably aware of all the plot holes in the ending and if your not I suggest you just look around the forum .

4)Emotional Satisfaction. It really seems like Bioware doesn't really know why people buy their games and I guess people buy them for many reasons but for me the one and only reason why I buy mass effect games is for the rich characters. Bioware has always delivered when giving us characters who you care about and I think the decision to focus more on the themes for the last 10 minutes was probably a mistake on their part. Hell I would have minded the ending as long as there was some epilogue.
 
Mar 18, 2011
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I agree with the OP. It's pretty much what I said from the start (though not as in-depth analyzed). Already by the end of ME1 did I get the feeling that things would play out the way they did.
 

Izzy1320

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I swore to myself that I was done with ME3 threads and posting in them, but with due apologies to myself, I kind of felt almost inclined to post here. I honestly respect your choice to ignore the 'gamez iz artz, yo' type of argument and focus on the themes, but after reading all of the replies and other posts practically everywhere game related on the internet, I kind of have to provide my thoughts on the 'themes of Mass Effect argument'.

You have provided three themes here, Sacrifice, Entropy, and Forgiveness, as well as given some very long and well argued reasons for them. Whether or not I disagree with these themes is inconsequential, I suppose. What is important, however, is that others have given equally powerful arguments for completely different and still understandable themes. The problem, as I see it, is that a series such as this cannot be boiled down into only three 'main themes'. Themes, by their very nature, are practically infinite, and well some may hold more strongly in a series than others, there are portions of every series that cater to other themes and styles of belief. For example, I have heard some very convincing arguments that one of the themes of the Mass Effect series was, in fact Death, and macabre as it seems, I understood the individual's point of view, because it was well argued and put forth.

I should mention as a side note that I believe you have an incorrect definition for the use of Entropy. Entropy is basically a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration, a slow and unstoppable fall into chaos. This does not represent the Mass Effect series at all. Entropy is not cyclical, like the reapers, but a definite and clear one way road to utter chaos. Curiously enough, the reapers defined the humans as chaos, so I fail to see your argument here. Even using the scientific term of entropy...this has nothing to do with heat.

Going back to themes, the inherent issue with arguing thematic elements of any artist's work is that they are, essentially, opinions. The artist him/herself may have never intended that his work be seen in such a way. The arguments you present here are no different. You see elements of Sacrifice in the games, and you bring them forward with your arguments in a clear way, but others may see those exact elements as evidence of Shepard and the Normandy's crew 'Overcoming the Odds', or 'Live to Fight Another Day', so on and so forth. The same point could be made for your definition of Entropy, or Forgiveness.

I appreciate the effort you have made in this argument to overcome the issues of many of the posts and articles out there, but in so doing, you have still ignored one crucial thing. The ending cutscene which you put aside is, in fact, the ending we were given. You cannot simply toss that aside for the sake of an argument. A well put and loquacious argument, but an ultimately flawed one, I believe.

I shall end this with my own personal note on the issue. I do not enjoy the ending, surely, but just like the old saying 'don't judge a book by it's cover', I'm going to say 'Don't judge Mass Effect by it's ending.' The series to date has been one of my favorite experiences in the gaming world, and I have absolutely no intent to leave it just because I don't approve of the last five minutes in a series that took me over one hundred hours to complete.

Thank You
-Izzy
 

lordmardok

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I like how this entirely ignores and/or assumes several arguments.

1. Bioware made promises on a game that it most certainly did not deliver on, this isn't conjecture or opinion but provable fact. Anyone who goes back and reads the promises they made and then plays the game cannot possibly argue that they are consistent.

2. You assume that the everyone agree's on the same theme which is almost never true with great works of fiction or art. People have been arguing for years about the meaning of Jackson Pollock's works, and centuries over the Mona Lisa. I realize comparing the ME series to the Mona Lisa is a little, stupid, but the point holds true none-the-less. I personally felt that the ME series was indeed about sacrifice but not entropy. I'm not sure if anyone watched 'Flash Forward' but there was an episode where one of the main characters commits suicide because he will be responsible for the death of a young mother. To me it's the same deal in Mass Effect, sacrificing everything to defy fate and to defy the eternal cycle of violence and genocide that has claimed the galaxy from day one.

3. The Mass Effect ending was full of plot holes. I'm not talking about the CGI stuff, which was stupid don't get me wrong, I mean once you get into the citedal beacon you end up getting handed a bunch of explanations that, plain and simple, make no sense. "We invented a race of synthetic gods to murder everything so they don't get... murdered... by... synthetics." Oh yea, that makes all kinds of sense.

Honestly I don't really care about your degree's or your qualifications, they have no bearing unless you fairly review all of the problems with the game's ending which NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE TO DO. Unless you're going to address all of the problems please keep your half-baked opinions to yourself.


Skyfyre said:
Mass Effect 3: Great Ending or Greatest Ending

Conclusion:

So that?s pretty much it. I find it impossible to comprehend how anyone can say the ending was in any way a tonal shift or somehow disconnected from the narrative. It fits perfectly in with the themes of (1) sacrifice (2) entropy (3) and forgiveness. If you are so caught up in the fact that the final cutscene randomly shows the Normandy fleeing, or the fact the mass relays are exploding, then you really need to stop it. For one thing it doesn?t matter that galactic civilization might be over, you still triumphed over the Reapers.

It certainly doesn?t mean none of your decisions in the game mattered. If you cured the genophage then the krogan civilization can still thrive on their planet, if you united the quarians and geth then they are indeed going to be working together to establish their future. The mass relays didn?t destroy all life when they exploded as some of you have argued. We already know from the final scene set in the future that it didn?t kill everyone. Clearly Bioware is saying there is a way to destroy the relays without them destroying the entire galaxy.

Finally if you are sad Shepard is dead, then you certainly should be. If you think this ruins the game you are have misunderstood the narrative themes of the series. The best stories have realistic endings, Shepard dying in this context when examined against the narrative themes Bioware is portraying is an extremely realistic ending. When Blade Runner was made the studio forced Ridley Scott to put a happy ending on the film. This ending made little narrative sense in connection with the theme and tone of the overall movie and was mostly deemed a failure. Scott?s director?s cut which omits the happy ending is now considered to be the far superior version of the film. When Great Expectations came out everyone demanded Dickens change the ending because it was too depressing. Dickens relented, he couldn?t afford his audience to be upset with him. Today literary scholars consider this the worst decision Dickens ever made and now the majority of students that read Great Expectations read it with the original ending intact. So certainly mourn the fact that Shepard is dead, but don?t go around saying that Bioware?s writers didn?t know what they were doing, they clearly did and they created one of the best videogame narratives because of
Finally, the majority of us are not pissed that Shepard died, most of us expected it. That's a child's reasoning for being angry. I would suggest some actual research before you post another of your 'reviews' and actually read up on the reasons people are angry instead of just assuming you know everything and working from there.
 

Sanguinedragon

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chinangel said:
I hate it when people use this word of 'sacrifice' for the ending of mass effect 3. Because it's NOT sacrifice. like. at all.

A sacrifice is a choice. You see two options and you choose to give your own life up for a certainty (you believe) of some kind of victory.

A perfect example of this is Dragon Age: Origins. The Warden has to make a tough call. Sacrifice them self to kill the arch-demon for good, or put their trust in a shifty, morally-questionable sorceress.

THAT is a perfect example of sacrifice.

Mass Effect 3 however is just shock tactics, or a weak attempt at it. When I was buying the game I KNEW they were going to kill Shepard and I KNEW it was going to be simply because 'this is how you make a memorable ending'. This. IS. Bullshit. It is also very lazy writing.

Endings are NOT memorable because the hero dies at the end. Endings are memorable because the hero overcame great odds. This is not what happens in Mass Effect 3, and writers kind of need to realize that.

Look at Bioshock the good ending shows the main hero living, and with all his daughters, and dying of old age. This is a good ending, and it's memorable. He overcame great odds and was rewarded for doing so.

In Mass Effect 3, Shepard dies (no matter what) and...what? Nobody wins. Earth is destroyed, the races are scattered and this has solved nothing, in fact analysis reveals it has made many many many more problems for the Mass Effect Universe.

"Dur Hurr the main character dying is controversial and dramatic" no it's not. The death of your main character MUST feel organic. It must feel that this is what the game was building to, that there was no way this could be accomplished without this momentous sacrifice, and it MUST be a sacrifice! A CHOICE! NOT me being railroaded into choosing my preferred death.

Lastly, there is respecting the main character. Look how much Shepard has already sacrificed. Friends, Family (in some cases), loved ones, humans, turians, spectres, a chance at a normal life. LIFE ITSELF in one case! Shepard has ALREADY given up so much, and then you're just going to take the rest in the end? (For gender pronoun purposes i'm going to use my shepard for refference, a girl.)

My shep WANTS to stop fighting, but on her own terms. She'd probably find a comm system and tell everyone to glass the Reapers, and then...I don't know..use the Citedal as a battering ram, escaping just in time in a shuttle as it plowed through several dozen reapers, and cause chaining explosions that take out more and fight to some bare victory, but a victory none-the-less and go on to have little blue babies.

This is the thing, Shepard deserves a happy ending above all else. shepard has ALREADY given up so much that killing her at the end feels like a slap in the face to the player who watched Shepard struggle up to now, and to the character who isn't given a fighting chance.

TL;DR.

1) Sacrifice must be a choice, a real choice. Not a railroad (See also: Mordin Solus' death)

2) Endings Must feel organic, and the ending must make sense. Not thrown in because you want to be 'shocking'.

3) Respect the sacrifices of your main character, who has already given up so much to this cause, don't demand their lives as well unless the ending would truly feel empty without it.
This a thousand times this
thank you for putting so eloquently what I have been thinking.
I don't need "bittersweet" in my games, unless I choose it. I can get bitersweet all I want in real life.
 

lordmardok

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Skyfyre said:
Mass Effect 3: Great Ending or Greatest Ending
It certainly doesn?t mean none of your decisions in the game mattered. If you cured the genophage then the krogan civilization can still thrive on their planet, if you united the quarians and geth then they are indeed going to be working together to establish their future. The mass relays didn?t destroy all life when they exploded as some of you have argued. We already know from the final scene set in the future that it didn?t kill everyone. Clearly Bioware is saying there is a way to destroy the relays without them destroying the entire galaxy.
By the way, you do realize that if you chose either the Synthesis or the Destruction ending that ALL synthetic technology in the galaxy is either fused or obliterated right? That means Geth, EDI, the Quarian Live Ships, the Quarians Enviro-suits, EVERYTHING.

So actually the endings don't just ignore our decisions, the endings actually FLAT OUT NEGATE SOME OF THEM.

And it's funny how the destruction of one Mass Relay practically annihilated the Batarian civilization but somehow the destruction of every Relay almost simultaneously goes just fine. It makes no sense, sure we can ASSUME that bioware is saying 'don't worry it's ok they won't end the galaxy' but it doesn't flow with literally anything they've been saying since the beginning of Mass Effect 3 at all. So that last sentence is just pure bunk, I really hope your just posting all this because bioware is paying you to and that you're not actually this dim.
 

lordmardok

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chinangel said:
I hate it when people use this word of 'sacrifice' for the ending of mass effect 3. Because it's NOT sacrifice. like. at all.

A sacrifice is a choice. You see two options and you choose to give your own life up for a certainty (you believe) of some kind of victory.

A perfect example of this is Dragon Age: Origins. The Warden has to make a tough call. Sacrifice them self to kill the arch-demon for good, or put their trust in a shifty, morally-questionable sorceress.

THAT is a perfect example of sacrifice.

Mass Effect 3 however is just shock tactics, or a weak attempt at it. When I was buying the game I KNEW they were going to kill Shepard and I KNEW it was going to be simply because 'this is how you make a memorable ending'. This. IS. Bullshit. It is also very lazy writing.

Endings are NOT memorable because the hero dies at the end. Endings are memorable because the hero overcame great odds. This is not what happens in Mass Effect 3, and writers kind of need to realize that.

Look at Bioshock the good ending shows the main hero living, and with all his daughters, and dying of old age. This is a good ending, and it's memorable. He overcame great odds and was rewarded for doing so.

In Mass Effect 3, Shepard dies (no matter what) and...what? Nobody wins. Earth is destroyed, the races are scattered and this has solved nothing, in fact analysis reveals it has made many many many more problems for the Mass Effect Universe.

"Dur Hurr the main character dying is controversial and dramatic" no it's not. The death of your main character MUST feel organic. It must feel that this is what the game was building to, that there was no way this could be accomplished without this momentous sacrifice, and it MUST be a sacrifice! A CHOICE! NOT me being railroaded into choosing my preferred death.

Lastly, there is respecting the main character. Look how much Shepard has already sacrificed. Friends, Family (in some cases), loved ones, humans, turians, spectres, a chance at a normal life. LIFE ITSELF in one case! Shepard has ALREADY given up so much, and then you're just going to take the rest in the end? (For gender pronoun purposes i'm going to use my shepard for refference, a girl.)

My shep WANTS to stop fighting, but on her own terms. She'd probably find a comm system and tell everyone to glass the Reapers, and then...I don't know..use the Citedal as a battering ram, escaping just in time in a shuttle as it plowed through several dozen reapers, and cause chaining explosions that take out more and fight to some bare victory, but a victory none-the-less and go on to have little blue babies.

This is the thing, Shepard deserves a happy ending above all else. shepard has ALREADY given up so much that killing her at the end feels like a slap in the face to the player who watched Shepard struggle up to now, and to the character who isn't given a fighting chance.

TL;DR.

1) Sacrifice must be a choice, a real choice. Not a railroad (See also: Mordin Solus' death)

2) Endings Must feel organic, and the ending must make sense. Not thrown in because you want to be 'shocking'.

3) Respect the sacrifices of your main character, who has already given up so much to this cause, don't demand their lives as well unless the ending would truly feel empty without it.
This is beautiful and almost entirely true. I don't necessarily agree that Shepard deserved a happy ending universally, I'm perfectly fine with him/her dying, but I utterly and completely agree that the sacrifice is not a sacrifice unless it's a choice, otherwise it's just a lazy Deus Ex Machina that forces you to adhere to the writers ending script which, let's be honest, wasn't very good in the first place.

So thank you for writing this, it's so very true.
 

JediMB

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Sanguinedragon said:
This a thousand times this
thank you for putting so eloquently what I have been thinking.
I don't need "bittersweet" in my games, unless I choose it. I can get bitersweet all I want in real life.
To be fair, I think it would be hard to get any sort of "happy" ending that wasn't in reality bittersweet. Dragon Age: Origins' endings were bittersweet.

With Mass Effect 3 they just completely forgot about the "sweet" and did their best to cover the whole ending with "bitter".
 

Seanfall

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lordmardok said:
Skyfyre said:
Mass Effect 3: Great Ending or Greatest Ending
It certainly doesn?t mean none of your decisions in the game mattered. If you cured the genophage then the krogan civilization can still thrive on their planet, if you united the quarians and geth then they are indeed going to be working together to establish their future. The mass relays didn?t destroy all life when they exploded as some of you have argued. We already know from the final scene set in the future that it didn?t kill everyone. Clearly Bioware is saying there is a way to destroy the relays without them destroying the entire galaxy.
By the way, you do realize that if you chose either the Synthesis or the Destruction ending that ALL synthetic technology in the galaxy is either fused or obliterated right? That means Geth, EDI, the Quarian Live Ships, the Quarians Enviro-suits, EVERYTHING.

So actually the endings don't just ignore our decisions, the endings actually FLAT OUT NEGATE SOME OF THEM.

And it's funny how the destruction of one Mass Relay practically annihilated the Batarian civilization but somehow the destruction of every Relay almost simultaneously goes just fine. It makes no sense, sure we can ASSUME that bioware is saying 'don't worry it's ok they won't end the galaxy' but it doesn't flow with literally anything they've been saying since the beginning of Mass Effect 3 at all. So that last sentence is just pure bunk, I really hope your just posting all this because bioware is paying you to and that you're not actually this dim.
I agree with your side here completely. But in the Arrival DLC you took out a Batarian colony world. Not the homeworld. The Batarian's are still devastated by the reapers though. It's a bad sign when the husks of your race are the reapers front line forces. It means they got a loooot of you to go around. And I was gonna ask how the Quarians are messed...then I remember that codex entry that mentions the cybernetics they have to interface with their suits. So it's not much of a leap to assume their ships are built around the same idea.
 

gigastrike

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All I wanted was a little closure. Just a quick "so and so went on to be a doctor" thing that showed me how my decisions affected the galaxy for the next couple hundred years. I thought the ending was ok, but I was just left wondering if I did the right thing.
 

Flailing Escapist

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BloatedGuppy said:
Revolutionaryloser said:
I'm pretty sure it's established over and over and over again that the Reapers are too powerful. At most, the entire joined forces of the galaxy could take out about 10 of them and even then it would still mean losing all their military forces. The thing is that be they invincible or not, there are anything between 300 and 80,000 of them.
That was certainly the tonal impression from ME1 and ME3, but ME3 retconned that a bit. There's an entry in the codex about clever ways to kill Reapers, the Reapers are fought to a standstill in numerous areas, you're in on killing a couple of Reapers yourself, they introduce smaller Reapers, and on and on. As there's a finite number of Reapers, it does suddenly make one wonder WHY a conventional military approach is unfeasible, especially since their traditional blitz attack got foiled.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, and prefer the idea of the Reapers as being virtually unstoppable, but Bioware really took the edge off them in the third game. If the Catalyst had been a more conventional weapon instead of an echo chamber for circumlocutory ghosts, the concept of a Reaper defeat wasn't unthinkable.
I thought I remembered reading a email in ME3 from the colony at Feros and how they were holding off REAPERS all by themselves. You know, those like 30 people you may have saved in the first games - they're holding off at least 1 Reaper with no star ships or orbital cannons or anything. Just a bunch of colonists.

I agree with the shift of tone, though. It took like every single ship at the Citadel firing everything they had at him to bring Soveriegn down. The tone isn't even consistent in ME3. Sometimes they're practically invincible and other times as long as you have kind of a gun you can hold off Reapers just by shooting them in their glowy thingy.

If the entire fleet you had gathered at the end all focused on a single Reaper and just moved from Reaper to Reaper instead of the chaotic fire we got they would've really fucked up the Reaper forces. Granted the the Reapers were pretty thick the entire game. Chessmaster on my computer is probably smarter than they are.
 

MarxonSR1

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I absolutely agree with 'chinangel', in that sacrifice is a choice and you certainly don't require the death of your main character to make an ending poignant.
Though I'm not too concerned about Shepard living, I would have preferred it, but it's a preference and I understand the people who felt the story is better if Shepard dies.

Also on your last 2 points:

2) This is not 'Entropy' and I don't believe the choices solve/reflect anything (at least not very well)


3) I don't necessarily think 'Forgiveness' is a theme



2) Entropy is a description of how a system is more likely to move from a order to chaos. The Reapers repeating a cycle continuously is not chaos.
Arguably the removal of technologically advanced races creates more chaos, but within an ordered system. Where the Reapers always return, always harvest people, overwhelm them etc... You could argue the story focuses on the inevitability of defeat by the Reapers, but that is nothing to do with entropy.

Entropy is in a sense 'inevitable', but this doesn't mean everything inevitable is entropy. This is mostly a problem with language, however, even though the Reapers are crazy hard to kill, I still would have preferred a final 'Death or Glory'(mostly death) charge to a series of meaningless choices.

The synthesis ending is the one I have the most problem with, because as far as I can see it solves nothing. Why does people having a 'synthetic' side preclude them never again building synthetics that would eventually destroy them because they are too 'organic'.
Also no-one who united the Geth and Quarians is saying that; synthetics will never rise to kill everyone. Though this does prove that not 'all' synthetics will do this, why should all synthetics come to the 'destroy all life' conclusion. The Legion mission in ME2 shows not all synthetics behave in exactly the same way, they can come to different truths.

Even if all synthetics came to the conclusion that organics were unnecessary; concluding you don't need something doesn't mean you automatically destroy it.

It's just as likely an 'organic' will build a superweapon to destroy all life in some way, like an unstoppable virus.

Also how does the destroy ending prove the Reapers right? You're not pressing some magic button that prevents people ever creating synthetics. You might just have wanted the reapers destroyed after all the harm they caused.
Or in my case, because I thought Shepard might survive that way.

I don't really understand the purpose of the 'Control' choice. As in essence it's the synthesis choice just with less green. Also the implications of what you actually 'control' the Reapers to do, is never really explained. Will they ever break free, will people use them to advance technology, will they create a dark space Reapers retirement home?

Nobody knows because Bioware didn't give any explanation, and it should not be left to my 'imagination'. You leave things to the imagination of the audience when it adds something, if I wanted to imagine endings I would play games, read books or watch films, I would imagine whole stories.

Ultimately these choices are visually identical, which even if the philosophy had been great, makes for a poor experience with a very visual medium.

Also this:

Skyfyre said:
Mass Effect 3: Great Ending or Greatest Ending

I believe that a better final cutscene that better fleshed out what happened would have been a great benefit for people that either didn?t or can?t analyze the situation themselves and just wanted to be told by Bioware what the endings meant. If such a cutscene existed I really doubt the majority of people would be upset with the game.
This, is mildly insulting and makes a number of strange assumptions. Firstly it assumes people disliked this through lack of understanding. Also it assumes people wanted a philosophical ending. Just because the game contains some philosophy, doesn't mean the ending has to have some deep meaning to it, this I felt didn't fit.

3) Just because a film contains lots of mentions of Christianity doesn't make it about Christianity, it just means the film mentions God a lot. Like say if they set it in the Vatican.

Incidentally I disliked everything following the arrival through the Relay, as not only the end choices are the same regardless, so - pretty much - is the battle, bar some tiny details. This is regardless of what military strength you had, and for an epic 'This Is It' moment it was really underwhelming.

As a final note, logic from a horse is just as valid as logic from a Harvard professor.
 
Mar 18, 2011
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Hammeroj said:
You mean, you figured the series would end by the worst MacGuffin in recent history?
The ending makes sense, people just simply weren't happy with their character dying.
Though I do agree that the endings cutscene could have been more detailed in regards to the other characters' fates, it was overall a very good ending.
Maybe you didn't like the ending, but that doesn't make it a bad ending. In short; ME3 had a good but disliked ending. There's a difference between the two.
 

Nereus77

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Skyfire, I completely agree with everything you said. Post of the year.

So many people are grabbing their pitchforks and torches over the ending its ridiculous. You've just posted a beautiful, calm, analytic response to all of the madness. I kind of understand why they reacted so harshly, but if you think about it it actually closes things off nicely. Yes, the final "consequences" cutscene could be longer and show what actually happens to the key characters and locations. The Joker/Normandy scene to me illustrates that life does indeed go on, albeit sans the technology that society is built upon. I think that Joker was trying to save the ship from destruction, which to me explains why he quickly took to hyperspace to get out of the Sol system.

It would've been cool to get a troops eye view of Garrus and your crew celebrating the pull-out of the Reapers as all their tech is dissolved away. Or perhaps the Asari gathering up the remains of their Prothean temple. Also, that Turian planet under heavy assault....

I suppose if you take all that was in that little cuscene you can deduce what happens in the rest of the galaxy, but people want to reaffirmation by seeing the results for themselves. But that's why we take to forums: to debate all the little details, lol.
 

Seanfall

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Your Very Own Personal MeatBag said:
Hammeroj said:
You mean, you figured the series would end by the worst MacGuffin in recent history?
The ending makes sense, people just simply weren't happy with their character dying.
Though I do agree that the endings cutscene could have been more detailed in regards to the other characters' fates, it was overall a very good ending.
Maybe you didn't like the ending, but that doesn't make it a bad ending. In short; ME3 had a good but disliked ending. There's a difference between the two.
'people just simply weren't happy with their character dying'. I could sit here and ask if you've been paying attention at all...Which if your brushing this off in that matter you obviously haven't been. But instead I'm just gonna quote SNL: "I'm gonna assume you know why that's stupid and move on."
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Welcome to the Forums. Sadly, I disagree with you on a lot of things.
First, let me establish something: Mass Effect is a Role Playing Series.
That might seem obvious, but a few of your points ignore this completely. When you play Shepard, you aren't doing the same sort of thing as when you play Master Chief in Halo, Blackburn from BF3, Raynor in SC2 - you are playing a character of your own forging. It is not Bioware's character, it is yours. This is evident from the number of decisions you make about your character, from the basic 'What do you look like?' to covering philosophical issues such as religion. You are given choice as to how you enact, and Shepard's attitude, who they are, and what they will and will not do, has never been dictated by Bioware. Well, until ME3.
In ME3, most of your dialogue is chosen for you. You don't get to choose how your Shepard reacts to things. The Dream sequences you mentioned would not occur for some Shepards - yet they are forced to because Bioware wanted Shepard to be haunted by that. I can honestly say my Shepard doesn't give two s***s about that kid down on Earth, or anybody for that matter. Yet suddenly, they are forced to because Bioware decided they should. This also carries through to the endings. There is no choice to even try to stand against the Reapers [A point which I will discuss more later on], there is only the Diabolus Ex Machinas that the Catalyst presents you. This element of choice is taken away from you, and you are left to make a decision not for your own Shepard, but for the Shepard Bioware envisioned. No legitimacy is given to a Shepard that does nothing, merely a game over screen. This may not seem like a problem, but it ties into the free will theme - which has existed throughout the series - and would, if you are correct in your assumptions of the Reaper's strength, be the 'Reapers win' ending we were promised by Devs.

Next, I would like to address the 'Free Will' theme. Whilst you may not have noticed it, it has always been prominent in the series. Think back to the final fight of ME1. What was the first half of it? A conversation with Saren. What was that conversation about? The same thing that had been discussed before, both with Saren and with others on Virmire - Indoctrination. Half of the final fight in Mass Effect 1 is about free will. Can Saren break through the control established by Sovereign, regain his free will, and then sacrifice himself for the greater good?
Fast Forward to ME2. What is something Miranda tells you about your resurrection? She wanted to plant a control chip in you - to take away your free will. This is used to paint a positive light on the Illusive man, as he prevented her from doing so.
Then into ME3, what was the final fight? No, it wasn't Marauder Shields. It was a conversation with the Illusive man about controlling the Reapers, and again, indoctrination. Can you break through and convince him that he is being controlled. Can he regain his free will and sacrifice himself, or is he still beholden to the Reapers?
The Indoctrination theme has been strong running in the series right from the first game, and is all about free will. Free will is a theme expressed in Mass Effect through both the gameplay and through the narrative, and is even more important a theme because of this.

Now, on to your points:
1. Sacrifice for the greater good.
As you have noticed, this theme has been prominent throughout all of Mass Effect. There are two problems with it in ME3 though: That it affects Shepard, and how that is handled.
The first part of this problem is that Shepard themselves is now affected by this. Whilst you believe them not being affected by this would destroy the theme, I think you are utterly wrong in this regard. Simply because others sacrifice themselves does not mean you must. If your three friends threw themselves infront of a bus in a futile attempt to stop it from hitting an old lady, would you HAVE to jump infront of that same bus? Would there be no sacrifice if you didn't?
No. This paragraph of yours illustrates it perfectly:
Quite frankly it seems almost ridiculous to even go through all the examples because they are so numerous, so I'm going to just list them: (1) Sacrificing people on Earth while you escape, (2) Tali (if you side with the Geth and can't unite the races), (3) Kaiden/Ashley (if you can't get them to back down), (4) Thane (saving the council), (5) Anderson (staying on Earth to lead the resistance), (6) Primarch's son (stopping the bomb), (7) the entire quarian race (if you side with geth), (8) entire geth race (if you side with the quarians), (9) Thessia. These are just the main ones, there are times of smaller tales of sacrifice for the greater good such as the Krogan dying on the Rachni planet, or the Rachni queen dying if the Krogan team is saved.
All throughout the game sacrifice is rife. The theme runs strong. You suggest that if Shepard didn't die, the theme would be destroyed. I disagree.
Was the theme destroyed in ME1 because Shepard didn't die to stop Saren and Sovereign?
Was it destroyed in ME2 because you had to REALLY screw up for Shepard to die to stop the Collectors?
If you answered no to either of the above, there is no reason for it to be forced now. This part of the problem is the minor part however. The major part is how Shepard's death is handled.
The handling of Shepards death is nothing short of atrocious. Imagine LOTR, the ring has fallen into the lava, but it doesn't get destroyed. Suddenly, Sauron laughs and says Frodo must jump into the lava and sacrifice himself for the Ring to be destroyed. Imagine Star Wars, once the Emperor is dead Vader reveals to Luke that the new Deathstar can only be destroyed if he jumps into its core, and it is otherwise invulnerable.
These would be terrible ways to end those stories. There is no reason for the main protagonist to die, yet the death is forced. This same problem occurs in the Mass Effect 3 endings. A Diabolus Ex Machina is enacted to force the main character's death, without any real reason given for why this must be the case. Many people would not have cared so much if we saw the Normandy do a suicide run, ramming Harbinger to try and give Shepard a chance to reach the Conduit. We wouldn't have cared had we seen our squadmates die under Reaper fire as they tried to allow us passage. We wouldn't have cared had Shepard died fighting, or had been killed by Harbinger as he activated the Crucible, or had the Illusive man come back in husk form and shot him in the back, before the Catalyst destroyed it [A bit of a push with that one though]. Why? There is a quantifiable reason for Shepard and the Squad's death. To stop the Reapers from achieving their goals, or because they were caught off guard.
In the ME3 endings, we have no such reason for Shepard's death. 'You must jump into a beam of light and be obliterated', 'Why?'. 'Because your DNA will fuel the creation of synthesis!'. 'Can I make a blood donation instead? You know, enough of my DNA is already splattered over this station, and I could send a bit more through. No reason I have to die thought'. 'Yes, you must die'. 'Why?'. 'Because... You must'.
'You will dissolve into nothingness upon grasping those handles'. 'Why?'. 'Because you must die, no other reason'.
'An explosion will kill you when you shoot that power conduit'. 'Well, I'll just line up a shot from here then...'. 'You can't'. 'Why not?'. 'You must be within the explosion's range'. 'Why?'. 'Because you must die'.
Out of the lot, Synthesis is the best explained, but it is still sketchy at best. Why does Shepard need to die to activate the Crucible? Why is there no conventional means to do so?
The game turns something that should occur normally into something that the character must die for. In this case it is most equivalent to a gun that requires the user to shoot themselves in the head, and it will then kill their target. Why? No reason given. The user must die, that's all you need to know.
Had Shepard died through a means that made sense - KIA by Reaper forces, by Harbinger, by an Illusive man Husk - many wouldn't have minded so much. They would still be upset about the mistake that was Shepard's death, but it would not be as important a point in their minds had the reasons for Shepard's death been not so non-existent.
You also bring up the "Hero's journey" argument, though in somewhat the wrong context. You will find that when people use this argument, they don't refer to wanting Shepard to live, the are referring to the utter failure to follow this narrative structure in the end of ME3. The game ends on its climax. There are few, if any, works that do this successfully, and ME3 isn't one of them. There is no 'Return with the Elixir' stage, the game ends on its climax. There is no resolution or closure, only the climax. This utter failure to follow the narrative structure that has been used throughout the rest of the series - both collectively, each game individually, and often each mission individually as well - is what people refer to as one of the literary failings of the ME3 ending.

2. Entropy. This you have split into two parts: The cycles in the story, and the reasons the Reapers can't be beaten. I will address both.
Firstly, the cycles. Whilst it is undeniable that these cycles exist, what many object to is the assertion that Organics and Synthetics will ALWAYS be at war, and ALWAYS try to kill each other, and even then, that synthetics will ALWAYS win.
All such ideas are destroyed in ME3. Firstly, that organics and synthetics will always be at war. It is easy to see how this is wrong: The Quarians and Geth united, EDI hooking up with Joker. Synthetics and organics are not always trying to kill each other, and are not always at war. This is one of the main parts of the game - disproving such an assertion. The entire Rannoch segment of ME3, and Legion from ME2 - are made pointless by the end, as their message is utterly revoked by the Catalyst, who claims that such things cannot happen.
Then, lets assume that the Quarians and Geth had kept on fighting. Who would have won? Thanks to the Reapers, likely the Geth. Lets take the Reapers out of the equation though, considering their purpose is to protect organics by killing them. Who would have won? The Quarians, easily. Without the Reaper code, the Geth are utterly outgunned by the Quarians, and are wiped out. The technological singularity point is revoked.
In the Prothean's cycle, the galaxy was united to defeat AI. It is implied that the Organics began to win. Then the Reapers showed up.
For the Reapers' purpose being to protect organics, they seem to put more effort into protecting synthetics
Whilst it may be true that synthetics and organics will eventually go to war, the Reapers do nothing to prevent this - they actually encourage it - and in doing so are both the cause for such wars, and the failed 'solution' to them.
Secondly, the fact that the galaxy can not defeat the Reapers. This is never hinted at throughout any of the games. What is hinted at is that we can not defeat them alone. I ask you though, is the Systems Alliance alone in this fight? Or do they have the support of Krogan, Turian, Salarian, Asari, Batarian, Volus, Elcor, the Blue Suns, Eclipse, Blood Pack, Ex Cerberus Operatives and more. This is a threat that the Reapers have never faced before - a fact that you seem to forget.
It is established in ME1 that the only reason the Reapers are so successful is because they catch their enemies completely off guard. Not off guard in a 'You didn't believe we were real, so now Palavan is burning' way, but in a 'You didn't know we existed, so we jumped through the Citadel Relay, destroyed your government, shut down the entire relay network then picked you off one by one' way. They have never before faced the combined might of the galaxy in one fight.
Yes, the Reapers are strong. We, however, are stronger. The Reaper forces are spread across the Galaxy - not just at Earth - and whilst what is at Earth is the largest concentration of their forces, it is nowhere near all of them. Four Dreadnoughts can destroy one Reaper capital ship. We have over 100. A handful of cruisers and frigates can take down a Reaper Destroyer - we have thousands. These numbers are based off conventional Mass Accelerator weaponry. Most fleets have been equipped with Thannix Heat Based Weaponry - which is even more effective vs the Reapers. It would be perfectly possible to defeat the Reaper fleet at Earth - if you had the entire galaxy behind you. Heavy losses would be inevitable, but heavier losses would be inflicted on the Reapers. In addition to our superior numbers, what effect does taking out an enemy ship have for each fleet? If you take out a Sword/Shield Frigate or Cruiser, you are making a minimal impact on the overall firepower of Sword. You take out a Dreadnought, you are making a small impact on the overall firepower. You take out one Reaper Destroyer, you've taken a small amount of firepower away. Take out a Capital ship, you've taken a relatively large amount of firepower away. Each casualty inflicted on the Reapers gains Sword an even greater advantage than it had before.
The Reapers are far from unbeatable. We have them fighting us on relatively easy ground - for the first time in the history of the galaxy - and our fleet is actually stronger than theirs - at Earth, if you did everything right.

3. Finally, the ending in relation to Forgiveness. This largely ties into what I said earlier about this being a Role Playing Game, not a linear game. You are playing your Shepard, not Bioware's.
You state that Shepard feels guilty about the losses of all those left behind - but what do you base your evidence on? What YOUR Shepard felt, and the dreams that we were forced into. My Shepard is a survivor. If there is a cost that can be taken to save themself, they'll do it. This is galactic war, and whilst it would be nice to save everyone, Shepard for me feels that the most important person to save is themself. There is no guilt about Thessia. There is anger that he failed, and anger that the councillor hadn't told him about this sooner, but no guilt. Likewise, my Shepard felt no guilt for that kid. It was one kid out of billions that died during this war, and he was more concerned with whether Anderson made it out, or whether the Normandy would become that Reaper's next target.
This is one of the big failings of the third game on the whole - it takes away a lot of that role playing aspect, and forces Shepard to become the character that Bioware want them to be. This is extremely evident in the ending where Shepard literally just gives up. There is no fight. There is no 'What if you're lying to me?'. There is nothing but pure acceptance and defeatism. The only thing I can think of that would be going through Shepard's head is 'Damn, we lost, and now I die because some stupid hologram is telling me to. F***'.
My Shepard ain't a Paragon, he don't give two sh**s about who he has to sacrifice to win this war - so long as its not himself. This isn't a choice that Bioware should get to make, especially when they've established this as a Role Playing Game, where Shepard is your Shepard, and they've put forward numerous promises about what the ending could be. This is why ME3 is, by my standards, the worst game in the series. Its combat is better than 1 and two, as is its ability system and arguably the inventory too, but in the role playing department it falls way behind. Shepard is no longer your Shepard, they're Bioware's Shepard.

Mass Effect 3's ending is neither a great, nor the greatest ending. It barely even qualifies for 'OK'. You have addressed few of the many issues that people find with it. Things such as plot holes, the literary failings of the ending, the lack of choice, broken developer promises, destruction of Shepard as a character, random space magic, diabolous ex machina, no closure - the ending is plainly bad.
I will direct you to read a few articles on this. For example:
http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886
and watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs

There are a ton of things wrong with the endings. They are not great. They are not good. They are barely mediocre. They spit on the ideas formed by the rest of the series - not simply narrative ideas such as the Free Will theme, but also Role Playing ideas, and the idea that Shepard is your character. The ending is a failure when all is taken into account. It does not accomplish its purpose. It is literarily unsound. It takes the key ideas established in the gameplay of the series, and some of the narrative ideas, and throws them out the window. It disregards everything that the Mass Effect franchise stood for, and that is why people hate it.
 

DrWilhelm

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May 5, 2009
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Your Very Own Personal MeatBag said:
Hammeroj said:
You mean, you figured the series would end by the worst MacGuffin in recent history?
The ending makes sense, people just simply weren't happy with their character dying.
Though I do agree that the endings cutscene could have been more detailed in regards to the other characters' fates, it was overall a very good ending.
Maybe you didn't like the ending, but that doesn't make it a bad ending. In short; ME3 had a good but disliked ending. There's a difference between the two.
That people are still coming to this conclusion after so many reasoned discussions is just plain insulting.
 

psicat

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Feb 13, 2011
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Thank you for such a wonderful and eloquent analysis of the Mass Effect 3 ending. Unfortunately it was probably followed by many posts from the idiot masses who are angry about your favorable view on it. But, you put to words many of the reasons I liked the ending.