Video games: a form of art??

Jul 16, 2006
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hi all

im currently taking a class at uni called computer game studies and i have recently been assigned to write an essay on an issue or argument within or about the computer games industry. The topic i have chosen is whether computer games could be considered a form of art and i thought from the other topics in this forum the people who post here might have some interesting ideas....

so what do you think, are computer games a form of art???
 

falselogic

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Jul 18, 2006
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Of course they are. Any creative act is art. The thing about gaming is that it is art on both ends, both for the creator and the player...
 

dosboot

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Jul 14, 2006
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We should probably clarify right away that we are talking about a more narrow definition of art. In the broad sense of art, e.g. as mere creative application of knowledge and skill (like in the expression "is it an art or a science?"), there is little debate.

Most video gamers seem to think games can be art but not all games are. I argee because I can think of trivial examples of video games which qualify either way, but there is no real game which I could classify. I tend to think that art is largely a matter of perspective, whereas the general public tends to thinks art is a little more independent of the viewer. This is probably why video games are always dismissed as not art outside of gaming circles.

Certainly video games contain plenty of art. Music would be the most undisputable form of art. They also contain graphics, and here again most would quickly agree that at the very least computer graphics *can* be art. A computer representation of a real piece of visual art (like a sculpture, painting or portrait) would have to be art for example, and if you have some appreciation for the medium then ordinary 3d objects or even pixilated sprites can be art as well. Most video games have also have a story, and it is generally the length and depth as a real literary short story (note however stories and writing are most often not considered art). You could take this one step further and say some video games have a short movie inside them in the form of cutscenes (and interestingly enough movies are typically considered art).

Even though video games contain art there doesn't seem to be any consensus about what we mean when we ask "are video games are art?". Do all the pieces have to be artistic? Is it whether the music, graphics, story, etc are woven together aethestically? Or maybe we are just asking whether the bare bones gameplay is aesthetically pleasing?

Whatever the answer I don't think video games can become accepted as art by someone creating the video game equivalent of the Mona Lisa, i.e. a video game which in addition to being a game (say a great game) is also extremely aesthetically pleasing in whatever area we decide counts as art for video games. The reason is that the public isn't used to consuming video games at all, much less consuming them as art. On the other hand the public is used to consuming paintings/sculptures/photographs as art. I would even say we are trained (brainwashed?) to think of these things as art in cases where we may not actually think they are artistic (like depictions of ordinary objects or random scribbles, for example). Video games becoming accepted as art is not necessarily desirable because it would probably be a meaningless brainwashing of the public.
 

TomBeraha

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Jul 25, 2006
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dosboot said:
Well said!

I think the only thing I would add is that my personal feeling is that a video game can be art in all it's meanings if it is the product of a single artistic vision. That means I don't believe that most popular games are art, and the reason for this is that art generally means different, and different generally means either unpopular or a risky proposition for a publisher.

Some of the games that come down the indie pipes are getting closer to art, and it may be that what I'm seeing as art is the creation of new games / styles / genres in progress.
 
Jul 11, 2006
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No one has established a working definition of art. Whenever someone does, an artist flips it on its head. No medium is intrinsically art or not-art, the only question is how significant is something as a work of art. I'd say that a lot of games have far more artistic value then a lot of traditional work in traditional mediums. I'd put GTA on a higher art pedastal then any schlock by the likes of a painter like Thomas Kinkade (he has a chain of stores in which he sells sacarine prints of villages at sunset).

Just as an example, close to 100 years ago, a urinal was established as (and still considered to be) one of the greatest works of the 20th century. Are urinal art? It's a dumb question. The medium in no way defines the artistic value of the creation.
 

TheMonkeysAteMySoul

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Jul 30, 2006
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looking at something as art or not art doesn't really mean anything, it makes more sense to say that everthing is art to some degree and also to look at art not only in it's quality but also were it lies on the sliding scale between fine art and conseptual art, conceptual art being art that is good because of it's ideas for example john cage wrote a piece of music were the musicians just sit and don't play anything for a couple of minutes, this is a poor piece of music but that is not the intention of the piece, the intention is to make people think and also to make people listen more carefully and see that beutifull sounds don't just have to be made by a musician, they can be foot steps, wind blowing through the trees, musicians think they deal with notes and forget that they deal with sound, to the other extreem with fine art would be micheal angelo's david, where the piece is appreciated almost solely for it's craftmanship, most art however tends to fall somewhere between these two extreams games also tend to land here, take for example ico(no seriusly take ico, go down to the shops now and take a copy of ico, thats an order) you can definitly see the craftsmanship in this game, ever ounce of this game is utterly jaw dropping, but also you can see the innovation in it, the fact that the charecters never speek but still create a bond or the deceptive simplisty of the game rarely seen within the industry, another good example would be katamri damacy, an unconventionaly hansome game, it has inovation within it's asthetic and also the game is hugely conceptual in that it is not like any other game you are likely to come across, but still classifying anything as art can be a hinderance to our enjoyment, in my opinion that best that we can do is see everything as art why should I put a beutifull car ona differnet pedestal to a beutifull panting, why should delecatesen, the marx brothers, rachmaninof, ferris beullers day off, and those guys that made a bunch of crop circles in the 80's as a prank all be at war
 

Lex Darko

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Aug 13, 2006
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I think if you play this game [http://www.estarland.com/SegaSaturn.cat..product.5767.html] anyone would see how games can be art.

It is true though it is hard to see some games as art for example Counter Strike while a good game doesn't seem much like a piece of art.

But games like Nights:Into Dreams and Psychonauts are a good demonstration of just how artistic videogames can be.
 

Bongo Bill

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Jul 13, 2006
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Games, as a medium, do not prevent high art taking place - on this, most everyone seems to agree. However, in many cases, the medium of games is not conducive to the creation of profoudnly artistic works. This is due in mo small part to the high barrier of entry - a video game can be more expensive to make than a feature film. The derivative, self-referential, and market-driven nature of the industry impedes it as well. It takes something pretty seriously out there to turn derivation into something artistically noteworthy.

But, at the same time, sometimes by merely existing a game can make an artistic statement. Anybody remember that McDonald's simulator? If a documentary can be artistic, then that's an artistic game. The means whereby game can be artistic most effectively is not through the story, or the music, or the art direction - though certainly all of these things are venues for artistic expression (take a look at Metal Gear Solid 2 (like it or not, you can't deny that was an artistic story), or Electroplankton, or Okami) - but rather through the rules themselves. If you make a game in which anything represents reality (either overtly or metaphorically), then the rules are themselves a statement: "This is the way the world is." (Or, in the tradition of speculative fiction, "What if this is the way the world was?").

A game is simply a simulation (of something that is not necessarily real) that's also entertaining. And there's no denying that a simulation has the power to shape emotions the way art does.
 

Jeroen Stout

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Aug 1, 2006
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The question is, in my view, asked in a nonsensical way, and the only answer is "Mu", which means that the answer is too unclear to be said. What do you mean by 'are games art'? Do you mean 'can a sufficient amount of the population consider games art?', 'are games art in a universal perspective'? Or do you mean 'do I find games art?'

The problem with this question is that the answers you get are usually the same: see this thread. I've seen many forums where this issue came up, in some not even about computer games but anything computer ('can we create art with computers?'). Then there come the semantic rethorical comments, like, 'do you mean a whole game or just some aspects'... the problem is, really, that people want to take the word 'art' over-serious, make up some high standard by it, and then try to compare 'games' to 'art' and see if it matches.

I made up three questions that you question could imply and will start with the last: 'Do I find games art?'. I find nothing art. There are experiences in the set that I experience that I find simply pleasurable, but also things that give me a sense of awe, or more. Watching V for Vendetta gives me goosebumps, listening to Under Byen makes me fall in love with the voice and playing Beyond Good & Evil makes me excited and curious about the world in the game. Whether any of those are art is, for me, only a silly social question that shouldn't be asked inside my head. They're just experiences I feel, on a wide range.

Which brings me to my first proposed question: 'can a sufficient amount of the population consider games art?'. If you think about it, what is 'art'? It's a cultural heavy-weight-word, like 'holy' and 'truth' and 'fairness'. Say those words, and people think you're talking about something important. I sincerely believe that our sense of art, en masse is drilled in: paintings are art. How many people do, actually, like paintings? And how many people, when facing abstract art say 'how can something this unintelligeble be art?' What is art and what is not is cultural heritage. We have learned that painting, sculptures, books and music have to be art. Are comics? Are movies? We haven't got a cultural set for that, they haven't been around for very long. It isn't hard to find someone who thinks only paintings can be art. We're not talking about how special the paintings or games are, we are talking about a set mindframe of what art is. So can the mass see games as art? Perhaps, if we drill it in through the years. It might take a renaissance, or just a cultural elite focussed on the arts rather than the tough life. But either way, what the public thinks is art is just learned. I don't mean to be rude and say that anybody who thinks honestly about this is not thinking at all, but I do think that they're thinking from a cultural stigma that makes thinking hard.
But - YES - games can be considered art. But you might want to think about how much worth this whole considering thing is.

Wait long enough and games might be art. Insert the Psychonauts DVD right now and experience wonders this very instant.

(I was asked this very same question in class once, at my study GameDesign and Development, and ended up muttering quite the common response - right now the first thing I do when someone asks something is attack the question and say "Mu". Most questions seem important but are just too low-level to be answered, in all fairness. Not meant, again, to be rude.)
 

Goofonian

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Jul 14, 2006
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I find it hard to believe nobody has mentioned Killer 7 here yet.
If there is one game that BEGS to be considered artwork, almost more than it tries to be a game, then it would have to be that one.
 
Aug 21, 2006
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I think ne of the criteria for something being considered art is the ability to evoke emotion. it is one of the reasons music, paintings, and even movies have been considered art. The major difference between movies and video games is interactivity. I don't see how interactivity makes video games any less "artistic" than a movie.

I certainly have been moved to tears, anger, and joy simply from playing video games (and I'm not talking about emotions from pushing the right buttons). The stories can be powerfully moving.
 

TheMonkeysAteMySoul

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Jul 30, 2006
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eclipse115 said:
I think ne of the criteria for something being considered art is the ability to evoke emotion. it is one of the reasons music, paintings, and even movies have been considered art. The major difference between movies and video games is interactivity. I don't see how interactivity makes video games any less "artistic" than a movie.

I certainly have been moved to tears, anger, and joy simply from playing video games (and I'm not talking about emotions from pushing the right buttons). The stories can be powerfully moving.
so when your girlfriend dumps you is that art? Things can evoke emotion and not be art, what about the final episode of friends, that really devestated alot of people but would hardly be considered art
 
Aug 22, 2006
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Merriam-Webster said:
The conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced.
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I read James Mielke's excellent interview with visionary game designer and producer, Hideo Kojima in the February issue of The Official U.S. Playstation Magazine. In the course of their conversation, Mielke and Kojima get into a brief discussion on Roger Ebert's assessment [http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/30/ebert-video-games-inherently-inferior-to-film-and-literature/] that videogames can never be viewed as art, and Kojima's apparent concession to Ebert's point.

I believe it is instructive to understand Kojima and Ebert's viewpoints. Ebert says that: "...I did indeed consider video games inherently inferior to film and literature. There is a structural reason for that: Video games by their nature require player choices, which is the opposite of the strategy of serious film and literature, which requires authorial control...[T]he nature of the medium prevents it from moving beyond craftsmanship [however elegant or sophisticated] to the stature of art. To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers... for most gamers, video games represent a loss of those precious hours we have available to make ourselves more cultured, civilized and empathetic."

In typical Japanese fashion, Kojima is rather elliptical in his reply: "...art is something that radiates the artist, the person who creates that piece of art. If 100 people walk by and a single person is captivated by whatever that piece radiates, it's art. But videogames aren't trying to capture one person. A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play that game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame. It's something of a service. It's not art. But I guess the way of providing service with that videogame is an artistic style, a form of art."

Ebert's argument falls under the assertion of "authorial control." Regardless, his definition falls down all over the place. Yes, books and movies do walk the experiencer through a narrative that the author controls. But if one attempts to apply this narrow definition to poetry, or even worse, to a painting. A painter may have a certain feeling that he wants to convey, but the affect of all art exists in this tenuous, liminal space between the experiencer, the work, and the artist. In any given work, the reader's own mind exerts dramatic control over their final experience of the work. Whether this happens based on overt choices on the part of the player or simply on how they mull a work over internally is immaterial. The viewer is always an integral part of constructing the final artistic experience. Ebert simply points out how games differ from film and literature, but that doesn't mean that one is art and the other isn't.

Ebert would do well to examine what fellow film critic, Pauline Kael [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Kael] had to say about the old chestnut of what's appropriate to film versus what's appropriate to stage performance: "What movies share with other arts is perhaps more important than what they may, or may not, have exclusively." I assert, the same can be said of games.

Although I feel that Kojima's thesis differs in significant ways from Ebert's, they share a notion that art is an expression of an individual: an "artist." And that the intention of this expression is intrinsic to the definition of "art." It is unstated, but implied that the artist intends for his or her expression to be rather singular in intent and interpretation. Kojima's thesis seems to argue in part, that since he is trying to make a popular work, it cannot express his authorial vision, and therefore is not art. But Ebert offers the additional claim that the act of playing games holds no inherent value.

Frankly, neither thesis even begins to make sense. Shakespeare wrote plays that needed to be popular, but that in no way means they aren't art. Near the end of his career, Jackson Pollock tried to go back to figurative art, but the art community wouldn't have it: they knew what a Pollock looked like, and this wasn't it. So he went back to doing abstract art because it was more popular. It's still art. Regardless of popularity, there is something unique about Kojima's corpus of work. While they do not show the same consistency that, say, an author's books would, they do show explore consistent themes in consistent ways. A player can tell that they are playing a Kojima game. There is something unique, something fundamentally Kojima about his games. This is, in my opinion, equally true of all good designers. His personal biases and artifacts do show through, and that proves that he has put his stamp on a game; it is an expression of his vision, whether he intended it or not. In Kojima's case, he explains that he is merely providing "a canvas and paint and the paintbrushes" as a "service" to the people who play the game; that the expression of the medium is not coming from the creator of the medium, but rather from its participants.

My personal opinion is that Ebert and Kojima both advance a rather narrow definition of art. If you ask a bunch of academics, critics, or artists themselves to provide you with a pithy definition of art -- or perhaps more specifically, fine art -- you will probably get as many answers as respondents. Additionally, Ebert and Kojima's arguments don't even hold up when compared against current, acknowledged media like movies and painting. The point of this is that authorial intent is a very nebulous thing. Indeed, literary critics talk about the Intentional Fallacy, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_fallacy] in which it is wrong to assume that the message of a piece is based upon the author's intent. There is, correspondingly, the Affective Fallacy, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affective_fallacy] which says that one can't judge a work simply by how it affects the viewer. All this is really to say: defining art is hard.

According to Henry Jenkins: "Let's be clear here. All games are art...In a superficial sense, we could point to examples (of in-game assets) which could be described as professionally competent and well-produced. In a higher sense, we look for works that create new expressive experiences or push a medium to places it hasn't gone before." (from Fatpixels Radio Podcast [http://www.fatpixelsradio.com/index.php?post_id=50739].)

From Ebert and Kojima's perspective, perhaps these goals aren't possible without an artist's embedded intention or narrative. To simply hand over the medium, whether it be canvas and paint, or pixels and input device to an experiencer in their view, removes an essential component of what makes art, "art." Namely, the intrinsic, guiding hand of the artist. Rather than the extrinsic, emergent qualities found in interactive entertainment.

But anyone who thinks that an artist -- any artist -- creates their works without outside influence, springing purely from a singular artistic vision, is closing themselves off from reality. Artists are real people. They get influenced just like anyone else by what their friends say about their piece, what their contemporaries are doing, etc. Why does it make something non-art if the input comes from an outside party (the player), as opposed to an artist's inner circle?

I acknowledge that we haven't yet seen many examples of the medium which could be generally described as "works of art," at least as understood by a consensus view of what is considered canonical art. But I would like to allow that video and computer games might start to define an emerging notion of a unique kind of commentary or experience, due to the very fact that a participant has more direct input on the experience itself. Particularly in the fields of emergent drama or storytelling or interactive performance with other people. Such as in the case of Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games, like World of Warcraft.

And even in the case of single-player games, the craft and artistry of the game designer could define a rich and directed experience illuminating the general human condition, the creator's comment on his or her world, or reflective of the medium itself. Professor James Gee views games as being a particular kind of virtually-embodied performance art, where there is a unique interaction between the intention of the game designer providing "a trajectory of choices," and the game player.

In other words, James Gee and Henry Jenkins assert that the interactive experience in itself can be described as artistic, and games as a form of art wholly deserving of inherent value as an experience, in the same manner as film, or novels, or other works that are generally accepted as art. And, I would like to note, as deserving of First Amendment protections as any other form of expression. A point which obviously is lost on many opportunistic politicians, moral reformers, and anti-game crusaders.

As far as the elements that comprise that experience, such as the visual components of 2D and 3D design, animation, music, sound, and storytelling can also be artistic, I do not separate the granular components of the medium from the overall interactive experience. Any more than I would separate the screenplay, cinematography, editorial, musical score, acting, set design, title design, or any other granular component from film. Nor would I make the same qualitative comparisons between, say the style and quality of writing in a screenplay and the prose of a novel.

All parts work in complete communication of an experience unique to the medium they service. In this way, my personal thesis of games as art differs from Kojima's. Kojima makes the analogy of a videogame as being comparable to a museum: "Art is the stuff you find in the museum, whether it be a painting or a statue. What I'm doing, what videogame creators are doing, is running the museum -- how do we light up things, where do we place things, how do we sell tickets? It's basically running the museum for those who come to the museum to look at the art. For better or worse, what I do, Hideo Kojima, myself, is run the museum and also create the art that's displayed in the museum."

It is my opinion that Mr. Kojima sorely understates the importance of his role. In my view, he is not a mere curator. He is an artist. And not just of "the art that's displayed in the museum," but of the holistic experience itself. He is a wonderful game designer, and should acknowledge the significance of his accomplishments as far as he is clearly embracing the weight of his role in creating compelling experiences. I also feel that a very public assertion that games are not art coming from one of our most visionary game designers only serves to hurt the medium. I am sorry he feels that way. I am even sorrier that he broadcasts these feelings to the enthusiast press, his fans, and by extension, the non-gaming world.

This might get to a notion of his humility. Earlier in the interview, he explained that most of the Japanese press call into question the title that most of his fans confer on him. The adoring otaku refer to him as, "Kojima-kantoku." The word, kantoku loosely translates to "director," as in film director. In Japan, film directors such as Akira Kurosawa are regarded as bona-fide artists. So the question is intended to ask if Kojima, himself thinks of himself as being in the same league as a film director. And by extension, videogames as being in the same league as film. In Japan, as in America, the public consensus is that videogames are an inferior medium compared to film. So I wonder how much of his assertion is deferring to the general view, so as not to appear unduly arrogant. On the point of his humility, there were many great artists, Henri Rousseau comes to mind, who never considered themselves more than "Sunday painters". Rousseau hung out with some real heavyweights, but never considered himself one of them, or really an artist at all. I invite the reader to make the call [http://images.google.com/images?q=Henri+Rousseau].

In games, I propose that developers and game designers have an obligation to explore the medium's unique interactive elements, and to strive to understand the aesthetics and push the limits of those components. And apply what they learn toward the question of why they are creating the game in the first place. If the medium is to move forward, developers and designers should start to ask themselves these questions of intent, and regard what they are creating as worthy of the effort.

Kojima himself comes up with an interesting example: an unbeatable videogame: "Maybe let's say there's a game out there where there's a boss that you cannot defeat. It's made that way. Normally, when you beat the boss in a game, there's a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment, but if you can't beat the boss at all, if what you're left with is a sense of loss, then maybe that could be defined as art." But, he goes on to caveat his example by saying: "That's why you want to think about art and videogames. I think the lousiest videogames can be considered art. Because bad games with no fun aren't really games, by definition."

Again, I would disagree. For now, our notion of games might require that they perform as consumer artifacts; as lightweight, escapist pieces of entertainment. As toys at best and misguided violence simulators at worst. But if we were to expand the range of what is considered a worthwhile experience in playing a game, the measure of mere commercial success as a defining precondition of "quality" for a game may no longer need apply. People might not aesthetically appreciate the atonal music of Philip Glass, but few would say that atonal music is completely without merit simply because the experience itself isn't widely accessible.

Don't get me wrong. I still understand that we're talking about games, here. But that might be part of the problem. Right now, almost any interactive piece that runs with the assistance of a computer or console is called a "game." With that moniker comes the assumption that the work is merely a trifle -- an amusement.

I don't propose that we add a new description to the lexicon which would only serve to confuse people and make the game industry appear overly full of itself. (Maybe I have a little empathy for Kojima's humility, after all.) Witness the comic book industry trying to re-brand their work as "sequential art" in the "graphic novel" format. Though I have the highest respect for the fine artists who have contributed to that field such as Will Eisner and Frank Miller, their PR efforts didn't work. And comics remain a niche medium in the States. It is my opinion that, at least in America, the video and computer game industry have already achieved more mainstream status than the comic book industry. But we still have a ways to go. Cultural awareness does not necessarily confer respect.

For now, we might as well keep the appellation and strive to improve the inherent worth of the experiences. After all, the term, "rock and roll" was originally a pejorative description of the form. The Impressionists got their name from a derisive article that said Monet's new exhibit didn't feature paintings, but "impressions" of paintings. The Fauves, a school known for their violent, primary colors, were named after wild beasts (that's what fauve means in French), because it was said their works weren't the art of men, but the scribbling of beasts.

As in rock music, film, or other forms of popular mass media that are generally accepted as art, it is my opinion that it may be much more difficult to create a work that has universal appeal, and that can also be generally regarded as having high artistic merit. As opposed to creating something that is a fascinating piece of art, but that only appeals to a limited set of individuals. I'm just saying that I might play a game -- experience an interactive work of art -- and "get something out of it" that is worthy of the experience, but that might not be described purely in terms of "fun factor." Just like I might find it difficult to read the prose of James Joyce's Ulysses, but still find the experience valuable enough to re-read the novel in spite of my initial discomfort.

New York artist, Cory Arcangel [http://www.beigerecords.com/cory/] has already mounted a few interactive exhibits, one of which fits Kojima's bill. By changing a few bits of GameBoy code, Archangel created the agonizing, nearly unplayable, "Super Slow Tetris." Archangel's pieces rely on the penetration of Nintendo's classic 8-bit era properties into cultural consciousness to create a referential kind of art that comments on the fact that videogames have officially entered Post-modernity. Even if one isn't a gamer, some of Arcangel's pieces, such as "Super Mario Clouds" have a certain aesthetic elegance and an almost impressionistic effect on the viewer.

Incidentally, this, and other interesting topics are covered in the December 9, 2005 episode [http://www.wnyc.org/studio360/show012905.html] of WNYC's Studio 360 [http://www.wnyc.org/studio360/] which explores the topic of videogames. One segment of the show highlights the use of games as military training simulators. These simulators elicited highly emotional responses from their participants. If that reaction could be directed to an intention of exploring unique and significant experiences, we might start to explore and expand the range of the medium's capabilities. To quote segment producer, Rachel McCarthy: "Perhaps the one big difference may be the intent of the player: a game is only just a game when the person using it chooses to see it that way."

The root of the conventional argument is really about a fundamental modernist / post-modernist split. A modernist author would be horrified to think that their piece does not exist in a singular, perfect form. Though, of course, since the art is constructed between the experiencer, the work, and the artist, it is never singular. To him, a work must explain itself fully to its audience, and be completely internally consistent. Experimental music composer, writer, and visual artist, John Cage [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_cage] talks about the concept of a "roaratorio". These are works, typically a music-poetry fusion, where many sounds, sights, words, etc. constantly assault the viewer. The goal was for the eventual experience not to be about any single piece of the roaratorio, but about the complete assemblage as a whole. As he said, a single wrong note can spoil a symphony, but no amount of wrong notes can destroy a roaratorio. In a recent concert, The Flaming Lips [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_flaming_lips] handed out radios to the audience with different seating sections tuned to different FM bands. When indicated by lead singer, Wayne Coyne, a given section was prompted to turn on their radios, individually picking the volume, to create an original and spontaneous song. Somehow, because they let someone else make a decision, is this not art? What about choose your own adventure books? Can they not be art? What if there's exactly one choice, halfway through, that the reader makes. Does that mean the entire book is not art; that the author has not "constructed" the experience?

Modernism has a tendency to reject pluralism: words have only one spelling, any question but a single unassailable answer, a work of art the product of one man. They want a world where everything means exactly one thing, and none other. That's not the world we live in. Of course, people who have bought into this world view will say that, since it does not have a singular representation, since it does not reflect the vision of one, single and singular man that it is not "Art." They're the old guard, and we all know what happens to the old guard when a revolution comes through. So critics such as Ebert are simply afraid of something they don't understand. And if there is a defining characteristic of new art, that is it: new art will almost always frighten the standard-bearers of old art. Video games are on the bleeding edge of art, and that blood has to come from somewhere. We shouldn't expect that, as we cut into the sensibilities of the old ways, they will acknowledge us. But nor should we pay any mind when they say we are just throw-away culture.

New art is almost never widely appreciated in its own day, but our day will come.
 

Meophist

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Jul 11, 2006
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First things first, I don't know a thing about art. What is art? I don't have a clue and frankly, I don't care. I do have some thoughts about it though: Art is not in the hands of the artist, it is in the hands of the viewer.

I've been playing video games for a long time, as long as I can remember. I remember when I started play The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. It was a fun game, but still, to me, that was all it was. I played through, went past the Hyrule Fields and started to climb some vines to get into Hyrule Castle. At the top of the vines, the sun shined blindingly into the screen. When I got to the top, I looked up into the sky.

The sun, I didn't realise it was there before. I watched as the sky changed into night and back into day. The sun, the stars, the moon. It was all there and it looked beautiful. That was when video games became art to me. Experiencing the sky of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is one of my favourite moments of all my video gaming.

I was still new to 3d-gaming at the time. With 2d games, the sky was, at worst, non-existant or, at best, rather bland. Even with the first 3d games, the sky was usually just a blue texture, and most didn't give you a good look at it. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was the first game I could remember playing where there was attention being dealt to the sky. The sky really felt like a living thing all by itself.

...so that's why I consider The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time to be the best game of all time.

Err... so about the question: Are video games art? I can only think of one way to answer it: They aren't, they are.
 
Jul 11, 2006
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In brief response to Gamasutra Podcast (who seems to be pretty spot on in their assesment), you could also have mentioned any number of 20th century artists dealing with actions or events in which one of the driving principles of the artistic act was the surrender of authorship. The fluxists spring to mind as a primary example of this, and the dadaists to a lesser degree.

This is what really drove me nuts about the Ebert thing: by his definitions most anything under the modernist umbrella (often intentionally devoid of emotion) or many things under the umbrella of actions or events would be discounted as not-art. He's obviously under the impression that film is the highest form of art, and doesn't even take painting or sculpture into account in his narrow definition.
 
Aug 22, 2006
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purerage said:
In brief response to Gamasutra Podcast (who seems to be pretty spot on in their assesment), you could also have mentioned any number of 20th century artists dealing with actions or events in which one of the driving principles of the artistic act was the surrender of authorship. The fluxists spring to mind as a primary example of this, and the dadaists to a lesser degree.
Excellent points, purerage. Though I consider members of Fluxus to be an offshoot of Dadaism as opposed to a separate movement. :)

purerage said:
This is what really drove me nuts about the Ebert thing: by his definitions most anything under the modernist umbrella (often intentionally devoid of emotion) or many things under the umbrella of actions or events would be discounted as not-art. He's obviously under the impression that film is the highest form of art, and doesn't even take painting or sculpture into account in his narrow definition.
To be fair to Ebert, he isn't an artist, as far as I don't count Beyond the Valley of the Dolls [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065466/] to be a significant contribution to film history.

He is a newspaper film critic. Not an academic or art historian. Not that the ivory tower confers any unique qualification to talk about the subject -- sometimes, far from it. I subscribe to Pauline Kael's pragmatic and broadly applied commentary on art as an inextricable part of life and the human experience rather than some hermetic cultural artifact. In a way, Ebert subscribes to the same school, but simply isn't in the same intellectual league as Kael.

I merely view his position to be what it is, and don't expect anything more of it. It is an all-too-human conceit to only see things from one's own perspective.
 

EWAdams

New member
Aug 25, 2006
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An excellent summary by Gamasutra Podcast.

May I also recommend a quick look at my 2001 GDC lecture, "Will Computer Games Ever Be a Legitimate Art Form?" You can find it here (sorry for the awkward URL):

http://www.designersnotebook.com/Lectures/Will_Computer_Games___/will_computer_games___.htm

The short answer is yes, once several very important things (listed in the lecture) happen, and also when we start making products that are genuinely worthy of the degree of attention and analysis that works of art normally get.
 
Jul 16, 2006
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thanks alot to everyone who posted it was a great help especially the comments from gamasutra and EWAdams: that link was really helpful

thanks alot!!
 
Aug 22, 2006
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avocado said:
thanks alot to everyone who posted it was a great help especially the comments from gamasutra and EWAdams: that link was really helpful

thanks alot!!
You're most welcome, avocado. Acknowledgement must also go to Jay Parker, the Lead Technical Designer at Surreal Software. [http://www.surreal.com/home/] My posting contains a lot of our collective thoughts regarding the subject of games as art. Thanks go, as well to Ernest Adams, James Gee, and Henry Jenkins, whose contributions I have cited above. You might also want to check out Henry Jenkins' excellent posting, Games, the New Lively Art [http://web.mit.edu/cms/People/henry3/GamesNewLively.html] on his Henry3 [http://web.mit.edu/cms/People/henry3/] page at MIT's website. Check out his other writings and books [http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/103-8241908-4838246?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above&keywords=henry+jenkins&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go] as well. My random thoughts hardly compare to the depth and quality of his bona fide scholarly works.

-Tom
 
Oct 9, 2006
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Goofonian said:
I find it hard to believe nobody has mentioned Killer 7 here yet.
If there is one game that BEGS to be considered artwork, almost more than it tries to be a game, then it would have to be that one.
GASP!!!

I can't believe it. Somebody else thinks the same thing as I do. Killer7 is what I believe an important stepping stone to identifying videogames as art, albeit the difficulty in pinpointing the artistic sense beyond the violence. Apart from that, it becomes a piece of art most prominently at its conclusion. (This is kind of why I find it aggravating that Killer7 got a few negative reviews, not because of the very fact that negative reviews exist for it, but because the reviews rated the game negatively because the editors were too concerned with the traditional conventions of videogames and too enamored with the concept that "all games need to be fun, and are a failure if they are not", which is a fallacious idea, as evidenced by the recent article "'fun' is a four letter word" [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/65/15])


In relevant news....
Ebert is quoted to have said that "the nature of [videogames] prevents it from moving beyond craftsmanship to the stature of art. To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers." He goes on to state that "Video games by their nature require player choices, which is the opposite of the strategy of serious film and literature, which requires authorial control."

I will reference only a passage I made elsewhere in my response to this belief:

One thing I have to say, particularly about the debate that Ebert upholds about "art" is that he believes that videogames aren't art because they lack authorial leadership.

Since when did art need "authorial" leadership?

Art is art because we DEEM it art. Marcel Duchamp, a celebrated artist, placed a urinal, A URINAL FOR GOD'S SAKES, on a podium, signed it, and it is today considered one of the most influential works of modern art. It's called "conceptual art".

Even traditional works of art require "interaction", just in a modest sense. When reading a book, looking at a painting, watching a movie, these things are NOTHING without an audience. But the moment they are viewed, they MEAN something to the viewer. This establishment of "meaning" can only be attained through a pact that both the author and the audience make, because the meaning for each piece of art is different for everybody.