Villains and Consequences.

[internutt]

For me it depends on if they reveal the villains past.

Darth Vader was a seriously awesome villain in episodes 4-6. However, when we were given a glimpse of his childhood and his transformation into Darth Vader (over not rescuing his mother in time and a dream of his wife dying of Childbirth). George pretty much stopped Darth Vader from being all that threatening when we finally learn he was a silly emo.

An example of a great back story for a villain comes from Power Rangers Time Force. Ransik was born to a society in the 30th Century that only accepted perfect humans. His test tube birth ran into some difficulties thus he was born as a freak in the societies eyes. Shunned and abandoned by everyone he had to turn to crime to survive, through his hate of the 'Perfect Society' he became stronger and eventually lead a band of Criminal mutants.

 

[iggyus]

Andrew Ryan: He only wanted the best for humanity and wanted to eliminate its limits
Kain from C&C: He believes he is freeing humanity by eliminating GDI and spreading Tiberium

 

[dwightsteel]

All villains, no matter how insane are will find a way to justify their actions. In fact, that is truly what makes them insane. They want people to understand that what they are doing is a completely sane and justifiable thing. It makes sense to them.

That's not true. As a matter of fact, it's the villains that are evil for the sake of evil that tend to be the scariest.

Look at the Joker. Read "Arkham Asylum" or "the Killing Joke". He doesn't seek justification for his actions. He has none. He knows that he's evil. He basks in it. Batman is the joke, and he's the punchline, plain and simple. Thats what makes him such a terrifying villain. All the villains who seek validation in their actions, at the end of the day, have a conscience. But villains like the Joker seek chaos.

Look at half the villains in the book "Wanted". Even the main character, was pillaging, plundering, and raping because he could. He straight up says he has no motive other than being a villain.

Just because he seeks chaos, doesn't mean that the Joker is not seeking justification for his actions. He is constantly explaining why he is doing things. He wants his plots to make some sense, explaining the meaning that he understands, but we may not. With that being the case you have to understand, that being insane, his justifications are not exactly what we would expect them to be. They may not make sense to us. So, they just seem as if they are only for the sake of evil, but they do have reasons behind them. "Killing Joke" was all about seeing how far you would have to push a person in order to make them go insane. It was, in many ways, an experiment, granted a crazy one, but still one none the less.

I have no rebuttal towards Wanted for I have never read it, but I am sure it is there somewhere.

Okay, the word justify means to prove something is just, right or reasonable. The Joker has never tried to be ANY of those things. I'm not saying he doesn't scheme, or even on occasion try to make a point, but only to satisfy his sense of humor. He doesn't assume that the things he does have any altruistic or benevolent purpose outside of him getting a laugh. He doesn't think that by doing what he's doing he'll be helping the world. As Michael Caine so aptly put in the Dark Knight, "some people just want to see the world burn." He doesn't seek justification in any sense of the word. He may seek understanding in his actions, but that is a far leap from "Justified."

 

[ExodusinFlames]

In the case of a villain who advocated his actions both himself and to everyone else, Jagang the Just.

 

[warlored]

The helghan soldiers in killzone 2.

There fighting to survive rather than to invade. i actually feel kinda sad when i shoot them, i want to shoot the other dudes instead. hell, even in killzone i wanted to fight on the helghan side, they feel more like they have actual reason to fight rather than those other dudes. i forgot their names.

aggreed the speech at the start of killzone made a tear drop from my eye

the same thing with the cimera ( gasp ) from r2 and r fow they cant breed and its not like they were herting people fore the fun of it the need it humanods to convert cause they cant breed also the werent herting the russians maby the dident fight back.

 

[WolfThomas]

Professor James Moriarty, his sole purpose in life is to ruin Holmes. Also evil genius, runs every criminal organization in london. The man is just good at what he does.

Have you ever read the Seven Percent Solution? Its a homage/parody to Sherlock Holmes where it reveals that Moriarty is just Sherlock's old maths teacher whose being constantly harassed by a drug addled Holmes. Its quite good. He has to go to Freud to lose his addiction.

 

[Flour]

Zakhaev in CoD4

He sold weapons to the wrong people(anyone that isn't European, British or American)and gets his arm blown off for it.
He watches his country grow, slowly becoming that which he has been taught to hate.
He starts a family and plots to get revenge on the people he feels to be responsible for it.
He then helps others that he thinks are in the same situation as him, probably also a "fuck you" to western leaders.
American and British leaders disagree with this change, find out he's still alive, murder his son and probably everyone else he knows.

I probably missed a few things, but I no longer play that game.

 

[dwightsteel]

Professor James Moriarty, his sole purpose in life is to ruin Holmes. Also evil genius, runs every criminal organization in london. The man is just good at what he does.

To be fair, Moriarty was more of a device than a character. Doyle never really fleshed Moriarty out as a Villain. The mystery and how it was solved was always more of the meat and bones of the story, never who was behind it. The same could be said of many of Holmes' opposition. Irene Adler was much the same, albeit she was only used once.

 

[Jumping_Over_Fences]

All villains, no matter how insane are will find a way to justify their actions. In fact, that is truly what makes them insane. They want people to understand that what they are doing is a completely sane and justifiable thing. It makes sense to them.

That's not true. As a matter of fact, it's the villains that are evil for the sake of evil that tend to be the scariest.

Look at the Joker. Read "Arkham Asylum" or "the Killing Joke". He doesn't seek justification for his actions. He has none. He knows that he's evil. He basks in it. Batman is the joke, and he's the punchline, plain and simple. Thats what makes him such a terrifying villain. All the villains who seek validation in their actions, at the end of the day, have a conscience. But villains like the Joker seek chaos.

Look at half the villains in the book "Wanted". Even the main character, was pillaging, plundering, and raping because he could. He straight up says he has no motive other than being a villain.

Just because he seeks chaos, doesn't mean that the Joker is not seeking justification for his actions. He is constantly explaining why he is doing things. He wants his plots to make some sense, explaining the meaning that he understands, but we may not. With that being the case you have to understand, that being insane, his justifications are not exactly what we would expect them to be. They may not make sense to us. So, they just seem as if they are only for the sake of evil, but they do have reasons behind them. "Killing Joke" was all about seeing how far you would have to push a person in order to make them go insane. It was, in many ways, an experiment, granted a crazy one, but still one none the less.

I have no rebuttal towards Wanted for I have never read it, but I am sure it is there somewhere.

Okay, the word justify means to prove something is just, right or reasonable. The Joker has never tried to be ANY of those things. I'm not saying he doesn't scheme, or even on occasion try to make a point, but only to satisfy his sense of humor. He doesn't assume that the things he does have any altruistic or benevolent purpose outside of him getting a laugh. He doesn't think that by doing what he's doing he'll be helping the world. As Michael Caine so aptly put in the Dark Knight, "some people just want to see the world burn." He doesn't seek justification in any sense of the word. He may seek understanding in his actions, but that is a far leap from "Justified."

I guess this entire discussion brings up a point that makes the English language so very interesting. We can all interpret things in ways that makes sense to us. I believe one thing, you believe another and within our own minds we are able to, even using very plausible evidence, find proof that the other is incorrect. However, the reality of the situation is that we are both correct and working with the definition of the word, we just approach it from a different angle.

 

[Steve Dark]

The Villian from the Watchmen.

Spoiler

Adrian Veidt (going solely on film version here). What he did may have saved the world. Gives a whole sinister tone to the phrase "for the greater good" which I love.

 

[TwistedEllipses]

Saruman. All he was trying to do was industrialize and modernize a primitive medieval setting. He was the Henry Ford of the LOTR series.

Exactly. Before he set about his programs of industrialisation, Isenguard was just him, a tower and some trees. He managed to create an army of 10,000, dam a river, set up a large mining and tree-felling operation and create a large amount of weaponry with a possible future chance for a thriving trade system. He did all this all in about a month, if not less!

 

[Padawanabee]

I never got why Ammon Jerro's alignment in NWN 2 was neutral evil, he was trying to save the world from the King of Shadows while you were still a farmboy in West Harbor. A tad chaotic, perhaps, but never evil.

 

[roastbeefy]

The Villian from the Watchmen.

Spoiler

Adrian Veidt (going solely on film version here). What he did may have saved the world. Gives a whole sinister tone to the phrase "for the greater good" which I love.

That's how it was in the comic, too.
I'm not even sure I can call him a villain. What he did was awful, and you want to hate him for it, but his justification is so good that when you think about it, you're not even sure who's side you're on.
I love the Watchmen graphic novel, it's one of my favorite comics, and I want to see the movie.

 

[dwightsteel]

All villains, no matter how insane are will find a way to justify their actions. In fact, that is truly what makes them insane. They want people to understand that what they are doing is a completely sane and justifiable thing. It makes sense to them.

That's not true. As a matter of fact, it's the villains that are evil for the sake of evil that tend to be the scariest.

Look at the Joker. Read "Arkham Asylum" or "the Killing Joke". He doesn't seek justification for his actions. He has none. He knows that he's evil. He basks in it. Batman is the joke, and he's the punchline, plain and simple. Thats what makes him such a terrifying villain. All the villains who seek validation in their actions, at the end of the day, have a conscience. But villains like the Joker seek chaos.

Look at half the villains in the book "Wanted". Even the main character, was pillaging, plundering, and raping because he could. He straight up says he has no motive other than being a villain.

Just because he seeks chaos, doesn't mean that the Joker is not seeking justification for his actions. He is constantly explaining why he is doing things. He wants his plots to make some sense, explaining the meaning that he understands, but we may not. With that being the case you have to understand, that being insane, his justifications are not exactly what we would expect them to be. They may not make sense to us. So, they just seem as if they are only for the sake of evil, but they do have reasons behind them. "Killing Joke" was all about seeing how far you would have to push a person in order to make them go insane. It was, in many ways, an experiment, granted a crazy one, but still one none the less.

I have no rebuttal towards Wanted for I have never read it, but I am sure it is there somewhere.

Okay, the word justify means to prove something is just, right or reasonable. The Joker has never tried to be ANY of those things. I'm not saying he doesn't scheme, or even on occasion try to make a point, but only to satisfy his sense of humor. He doesn't assume that the things he does have any altruistic or benevolent purpose outside of him getting a laugh. He doesn't think that by doing what he's doing he'll be helping the world. As Michael Caine so aptly put in the Dark Knight, "some people just want to see the world burn." He doesn't seek justification in any sense of the word. He may seek understanding in his actions, but that is a far leap from "Justified."

I guess this entire discussion brings up a point that makes the English language so very interesting. We can all interpret things in ways that makes sense to us. I believe one thing, you believe another and within our own minds we are able to, even using very plausible evidence, find proof that the other is incorrect. However, the reality of the situation is that we are both correct and working with the definition of the word, we just approach it from a different angle.

Not as much as you'd seem to think. Our buzzword was "Justification" or to "Justify" which means, literally to prove something is just, right or reasonable. I personally have never read a story where the Joker has tried to be just, right or reasonable. If you have story which you can show me a single story which can be interpreted as Joker being any one of those concepts, I'll freely back out of this argument.

 

[Jumping_Over_Fences]

All villains, no matter how insane are will find a way to justify their actions. In fact, that is truly what makes them insane. They want people to understand that what they are doing is a completely sane and justifiable thing. It makes sense to them.

That's not true. As a matter of fact, it's the villains that are evil for the sake of evil that tend to be the scariest.

Look at the Joker. Read "Arkham Asylum" or "the Killing Joke". He doesn't seek justification for his actions. He has none. He knows that he's evil. He basks in it. Batman is the joke, and he's the punchline, plain and simple. Thats what makes him such a terrifying villain. All the villains who seek validation in their actions, at the end of the day, have a conscience. But villains like the Joker seek chaos.

Look at half the villains in the book "Wanted". Even the main character, was pillaging, plundering, and raping because he could. He straight up says he has no motive other than being a villain.

Just because he seeks chaos, doesn't mean that the Joker is not seeking justification for his actions. He is constantly explaining why he is doing things. He wants his plots to make some sense, explaining the meaning that he understands, but we may not. With that being the case you have to understand, that being insane, his justifications are not exactly what we would expect them to be. They may not make sense to us. So, they just seem as if they are only for the sake of evil, but they do have reasons behind them. "Killing Joke" was all about seeing how far you would have to push a person in order to make them go insane. It was, in many ways, an experiment, granted a crazy one, but still one none the less.

I have no rebuttal towards Wanted for I have never read it, but I am sure it is there somewhere.

Okay, the word justify means to prove something is just, right or reasonable. The Joker has never tried to be ANY of those things. I'm not saying he doesn't scheme, or even on occasion try to make a point, but only to satisfy his sense of humor. He doesn't assume that the things he does have any altruistic or benevolent purpose outside of him getting a laugh. He doesn't think that by doing what he's doing he'll be helping the world. As Michael Caine so aptly put in the Dark Knight, "some people just want to see the world burn." He doesn't seek justification in any sense of the word. He may seek understanding in his actions, but that is a far leap from "Justified."

I guess this entire discussion brings up a point that makes the English language so very interesting. We can all interpret things in ways that makes sense to us. I believe one thing, you believe another and within our own minds we are able to, even using very plausible evidence, find proof that the other is incorrect. However, the reality of the situation is that we are both correct and working with the definition of the word, we just approach it from a different angle.

Not as much as you'd seem to think. Our buzzword was "Justification" or to "Justify" which means, literally to prove something is just, right or reasonable. I personally have never read a story where the Joker has tried to be just, right or reasonable. If you have story which you can show me a single story which can be interpreted as Joker being any one of those concepts, I'll freely back out of this argument.

My Joker argument is the same as it has been from the beginning. The fact that you don't understand his justification proves that he is, in fact, insane and you are not. Nothing wrong with that. Are you supposed to understand, or feel that what he is doing is ever justified? Not at all, but you need to realize that because the man is insane, he feels as if he is justified in his actions. I am not saying that he is trying to make the world feel as if he is justified (okay, so maybe I am), but I am saying that, within himself, he is doing right.

Now the definition of right is a loaded one, especially to one who is insane, as The Joker clearly is.

Right: "in conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle"

All of those become a gray area when dealing with a person who is insane. They perceive fact, reason, truth, standard, and principle completely different from the way we do. However, we are arguing about whether a fictional character feels or seeks justification in their actions. What does the truly say about us?

 

[dwightsteel]

All villains, no matter how insane are will find a way to justify their actions. In fact, that is truly what makes them insane. They want people to understand that what they are doing is a completely sane and justifiable thing. It makes sense to them.

That's not true. As a matter of fact, it's the villains that are evil for the sake of evil that tend to be the scariest.

Look at the Joker. Read "Arkham Asylum" or "the Killing Joke". He doesn't seek justification for his actions. He has none. He knows that he's evil. He basks in it. Batman is the joke, and he's the punchline, plain and simple. Thats what makes him such a terrifying villain. All the villains who seek validation in their actions, at the end of the day, have a conscience. But villains like the Joker seek chaos.

Look at half the villains in the book "Wanted". Even the main character, was pillaging, plundering, and raping because he could. He straight up says he has no motive other than being a villain.

Just because he seeks chaos, doesn't mean that the Joker is not seeking justification for his actions. He is constantly explaining why he is doing things. He wants his plots to make some sense, explaining the meaning that he understands, but we may not. With that being the case you have to understand, that being insane, his justifications are not exactly what we would expect them to be. They may not make sense to us. So, they just seem as if they are only for the sake of evil, but they do have reasons behind them. "Killing Joke" was all about seeing how far you would have to push a person in order to make them go insane. It was, in many ways, an experiment, granted a crazy one, but still one none the less.

I have no rebuttal towards Wanted for I have never read it, but I am sure it is there somewhere.

Okay, the word justify means to prove something is just, right or reasonable. The Joker has never tried to be ANY of those things. I'm not saying he doesn't scheme, or even on occasion try to make a point, but only to satisfy his sense of humor. He doesn't assume that the things he does have any altruistic or benevolent purpose outside of him getting a laugh. He doesn't think that by doing what he's doing he'll be helping the world. As Michael Caine so aptly put in the Dark Knight, "some people just want to see the world burn." He doesn't seek justification in any sense of the word. He may seek understanding in his actions, but that is a far leap from "Justified."

I guess this entire discussion brings up a point that makes the English language so very interesting. We can all interpret things in ways that makes sense to us. I believe one thing, you believe another and within our own minds we are able to, even using very plausible evidence, find proof that the other is incorrect. However, the reality of the situation is that we are both correct and working with the definition of the word, we just approach it from a different angle.

Not as much as you'd seem to think. Our buzzword was "Justification" or to "Justify" which means, literally to prove something is just, right or reasonable. I personally have never read a story where the Joker has tried to be just, right or reasonable. If you have story which you can show me a single story which can be interpreted as Joker being any one of those concepts, I'll freely back out of this argument.

My Joker argument is the same as it has been from the beginning. The fact that you don't understand his justification proves that he is, in fact, insane and you are not. Nothing wrong with that. Are you supposed to understand, or feel that what he is doing is ever justified? Not at all, but you need to realize that because the man is insane, he feels as if he is justified in his actions. I am not saying that he is trying to make the world feel as if he is justified (okay, so maybe I am), but I am saying that, within himself, he is doing right.

Now the definition of right is a loaded one, especially to one who is insane, as The Joker clearly is.

Right: "in conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle"

All of those become a gray area when dealing with a person who is insane. They perceive fact, reason, truth, standard, and principle completely different from the way we do. However, we are arguing about whether a fictional character feels or seeks justification in their actions. What does the truly say about us?

Characters like that are meant to be analyzed as such. I know a psych major who published a whole article on why the Joker is such a fascinating villain.
As such though, continuing this line of reasoning isn't gonna change your general outlook of the character, so unless you feel otherwise, I'm content to call this one a stalemate.

 

[traceur_]

the elf prince guy from hellboy 2, come on he really did have a claim to the stuff he wanted, I mean at the start it said there was that magic agreement thing that said humans get the cities and elves and whatnot get the forests, well humans have destroyed an amazing amount of forest so if I was that elf guy I'd wanna kick some human arse too.

 

[Jumping_Over_Fences]

All villains, no matter how insane are will find a way to justify their actions. In fact, that is truly what makes them insane. They want people to understand that what they are doing is a completely sane and justifiable thing. It makes sense to them.

That's not true. As a matter of fact, it's the villains that are evil for the sake of evil that tend to be the scariest.

Look at the Joker. Read "Arkham Asylum" or "the Killing Joke". He doesn't seek justification for his actions. He has none. He knows that he's evil. He basks in it. Batman is the joke, and he's the punchline, plain and simple. Thats what makes him such a terrifying villain. All the villains who seek validation in their actions, at the end of the day, have a conscience. But villains like the Joker seek chaos.

Look at half the villains in the book "Wanted". Even the main character, was pillaging, plundering, and raping because he could. He straight up says he has no motive other than being a villain.

Just because he seeks chaos, doesn't mean that the Joker is not seeking justification for his actions. He is constantly explaining why he is doing things. He wants his plots to make some sense, explaining the meaning that he understands, but we may not. With that being the case you have to understand, that being insane, his justifications are not exactly what we would expect them to be. They may not make sense to us. So, they just seem as if they are only for the sake of evil, but they do have reasons behind them. "Killing Joke" was all about seeing how far you would have to push a person in order to make them go insane. It was, in many ways, an experiment, granted a crazy one, but still one none the less.

I have no rebuttal towards Wanted for I have never read it, but I am sure it is there somewhere.

Okay, the word justify means to prove something is just, right or reasonable. The Joker has never tried to be ANY of those things. I'm not saying he doesn't scheme, or even on occasion try to make a point, but only to satisfy his sense of humor. He doesn't assume that the things he does have any altruistic or benevolent purpose outside of him getting a laugh. He doesn't think that by doing what he's doing he'll be helping the world. As Michael Caine so aptly put in the Dark Knight, "some people just want to see the world burn." He doesn't seek justification in any sense of the word. He may seek understanding in his actions, but that is a far leap from "Justified."

I guess this entire discussion brings up a point that makes the English language so very interesting. We can all interpret things in ways that makes sense to us. I believe one thing, you believe another and within our own minds we are able to, even using very plausible evidence, find proof that the other is incorrect. However, the reality of the situation is that we are both correct and working with the definition of the word, we just approach it from a different angle.

Not as much as you'd seem to think. Our buzzword was "Justification" or to "Justify" which means, literally to prove something is just, right or reasonable. I personally have never read a story where the Joker has tried to be just, right or reasonable. If you have story which you can show me a single story which can be interpreted as Joker being any one of those concepts, I'll freely back out of this argument.

My Joker argument is the same as it has been from the beginning. The fact that you don't understand his justification proves that he is, in fact, insane and you are not. Nothing wrong with that. Are you supposed to understand, or feel that what he is doing is ever justified? Not at all, but you need to realize that because the man is insane, he feels as if he is justified in his actions. I am not saying that he is trying to make the world feel as if he is justified (okay, so maybe I am), but I am saying that, within himself, he is doing right.

Now the definition of right is a loaded one, especially to one who is insane, as The Joker clearly is.

Right: "in conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle"

All of those become a gray area when dealing with a person who is insane. They perceive fact, reason, truth, standard, and principle completely different from the way we do. However, we are arguing about whether a fictional character feels or seeks justification in their actions. What does the truly say about us?

Characters like that are meant to be analyzed as such. I know a psych major who published a whole article on why the Joker is such a fascinating villain.
As such though, continuing this line of reasoning isn't gonna change your general outlook of the character, so unless you feel otherwise, I'm content to call this one a stalemate.

Sounds like a plan