#violenceisviolence video potentially a fraud

[WindKnight]

I'm willing to grant you that not all the footage was indicative of the point. Maybe some of the responses were something completely unexpected, like no one interfering either way (which would be my educated guess). But what are you actually arguing for here? That the video is incomplete? That people *may* have actually helped the male? That people didn't *always* help the woman?

You're putting a lot of personal perception into the intended message of the video, while... not actually(?) arguing against the point of the video (sort of)... so I'm not sure what you're doing? Complaining that a video was edited? That it wasn't edited in a way you liked? That it didn't show all the boring parts? That it wasn't 16hours long?

Because the editing is Manipulative, and quite possible misrepresented the whole situation. The video presents four staged attempts as two, and as a binary 'female victim got helped because her attacker was male' and 'male victim got mocked because his attacker was female', when quite possibly that's not what happened. It gives the strong feeling the events were massaged and manufactured to make their point, when they want us to see it as truth and reality and real people on the street reacting spontaneously.

 

[Lionsfan]

Just...what the fuck happened to this website?

Seriously - when will we realize that the internet is not a suitable platform to discuss this topic. Nothing good ever comes out of it. Stop.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

How can you say, "What happened to this website?" when you haven't even been here a full year?

OT: Nothing is ever simple with video, unless there's like a few different independent sources verifying it, you should probably assume it's been heavily edited

 

[briankoontz]

OT: Don't care. The point stands- men are also victims of violence, and this is acknowledged far less than male-on-female violence is. Both should be stopped, and in order to do that, both must be recognized as a problem. Discussion ends.

Not so fast. Male on female violence is a much bigger problem - the point in saying "both should be stopped" is to confuse the two as being equivalent problems. It's like having one anti-war person and one pro-war person debate each other - the frame is that these are "equal" positions which should be respected equally.

We should talk about problems in proportion to their importance, and therefore should talk much much more about male-on-female violence.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Because the editing is Manipulative, and quite possible misrepresented the whole situation.

It's... "editing". I would be right with you decrying this if it were a manipulation of facts, or a misrepresentation of events, but they have video... which demonstrates the events. Editing it for brevity doesn't change what happened in the video they showed.

The video presents four staged attempts as two,

Source? I'm curious how much footage they do have and how many attempts of this they tried.

and as a binary 'female victim got helped because her attacker was male' and 'male victim got mocked because his attacker was female',

As a *binary*? That's a pretty narrow view of the point they were making.

when quite possibly that's not what happened.

...but the video showed that it *did* happen. What you're attempting to argue is that it didn't happen how they depicted it, with the argument that they didn't show everything, so anything could have happened... which is a ridiculous argument to make. Even the video demonstrates the general perceptions; people we're uncomfortable with the situation and didn't want to get involved. One girl continues to eat her sandwhich otherwise oblivious to the situation not more than 3 feet from her. The one girl that did move did so based on her own safety, not the safety of the man being thrown against the railing a few feet from her.

What do you think happened? That people came to both their aid? That it didn't happen as frequentely as the video depicts? That the whole thing was an elaborate set up to demonstrate people don't take violence against men seriously? That editing indicates fraud?

It gives the strong feeling the events were massaged and manufactured to make their point, when they want us to see it as truth and reality and real people on the street reacting spontaneously.

...but... I... ugh... The ENTIRE video WAS STAGED! That's why they used ACTORS and HIDDEN CAMERAS! A 5 minute reaction time isn't less spontaneous than a 20 second reaction time if the point was to show how real people on the street react to this. Now you're taking issue with them DELIBERATELY staging this event to demonstrate their point? I... I just can't...

 

[Ninmecu]

Just...what the fuck happened to this website?

Seriously - when will we realize that the internet is not a suitable platform to discuss this topic. Nothing good ever comes out of it. Stop.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

I wish I knew man, I wish I knew. I saw another '08 banned the other day. I'm a rare breed around here because everyone else was forced away one way or another.

While my account is somewhat fresh, I'm an old timer who tried to avoid the forums, largely because I'm not a very social individual. But lately it seems like most of the threads have inflammatory click bait with diverging opinions that end in flame wars and ban hammers being thrown around. Hell I only came in here to see what the fuss was about and now I'm at least lightly enflammed by the suggestion that violence isn't violence regardless of the gender in question, that just, I don't even, what?

 

[WindKnight]

It gives the strong feeling the events were massaged and manufactured to make their point, when they want us to see it as truth and reality and real people on the street reacting spontaneously.

...but... I... ugh... The ENTIRE video WAS STAGED! That's why they used ACTORS and HIDDEN CAMERAS! A 5 minute reaction time isn't less spontaneous than a 20 second reaction time if the point was to show how real people on the street react to this. Now you're taking issue with them DELIBERATELY staging this event to demonstrate their point? I... I just can't...

The only actors were the couple. they were presenting EVERYONE else as real people with real reactions. If they were all actors, then that makes the video even more dishonest as they certainly weren't presenting it as such.

and to reiterate - we see footage cut together from three separate time spans in the 'female victim' the links in my original post includes details such as a full bin being empty in the next shot, to having rubbish poking out of it in another. These are drastically different time frames in an event we're supposed to see as happening at the same time. The same is in the reaction shots - we're supposed to think these are all reacting to the same thing in the same few seconds, when their filmed at different time frames. they are presented three separate time frames - only one of which shows people helping a victimized woman - as if they all happened within 30 seconds or so. we are seeing three different shoots cut together as if it was only one, to illustrated that the woman was immediately helped. We don't know what happened the other two times, and its entirely possible everyone ignored the woman the first two times. But that wouldn't help them with what they wanted to say with the video, so they cut them together to make it look like it was only done once, just not very competently.

Again, shots that are of people reacting tot he incident come with either sunny weather or dull no sun, but they are presented as if they are all happening at the same time.

 

[Depulcator]

This is why I hate everyone who's anything than further than ankle deep into this debate. Both sides are just playing to see who can bullshit harder. I'm sure soon feminists will counter with a completely legit study which shows the wage inequality between genders is actually 240%.

Fuck MRAs and fuck modern feminism, both your movements are poisoned to the damn core. Every sensible person in this world is ignoring you.

I'm glad some people get it. 1,000,000 internets for you!

 

[SKBPinkie]

Just...what the fuck happened to this website?

Seriously - when will we realize that the internet is not a suitable platform to discuss this topic. Nothing good ever comes out of it. Stop.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

How can you say, "What happened to this website?" when you haven't even been here a full year?

I had an account that I made in 2009. I closed it cause I needed to focus on my schoolwork. Opened a new one recently, and holy crap - this place has changed.

These topics dominate a good majority of the forums and each one is just as pointless as the last. Neither side is ever willing to see the other. It's just a pissing contest, made worse by the fact that this website was once hailed as "the last bastion of intelligence on the internet". No seriously - it was.

And now it's no better than YouTube, IMO. Only difference being that people here are far more smug, and avoid getting banned thanks to passive-aggression. I honestly don't know which one is worse.

 

[Asita]

Let's ignore for the moment that you can find a growing number of video evidences for this particular phenomenon on youtube.

And corroborated by ABC News, don't forget them. This isn't exactly an unknown or undocumented phenomena, and indeed is often cited in abuse studies as one of the principle reasons for males underreporting abuse against them.

 

[Lionsfan]

Just...what the fuck happened to this website?

Seriously - when will we realize that the internet is not a suitable platform to discuss this topic. Nothing good ever comes out of it. Stop.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

How can you say, "What happened to this website?" when you haven't even been here a full year?

I had an account that I made in 2009. I closed it cause I needed to focus on my schoolwork. Opened a new one recently, and holy crap - this place has changed.

These topics dominate a good majority of the forums and each one is just as pointless as the last. Neither side is ever willing to see the other. It's just a pissing contest, made worse by the fact that this website was once hailed as "the last bastion of intelligence on the internet". No seriously - it was.

And now it's no better than YouTube, IMO. Only difference being that people here are far more smug, and avoid getting banned thanks to passive-aggression. I honestly don't know which one is worse.

Yeah I remember the "Last-Bastion" phase this site has.

The passive aggressiveness you're talking about started when the new rules got put in place, like 2-3 years ago? I dunno, whenever that giant overhaul was.

My small opinion, I won't say the site was "better" back then, but it was a lot more bearable, even with all the extra smug. My biggest pet-peeve is passive-aggressiveness and a lot of posters here have become masters at it

 

[DailonCmann]

There isn't a double standard because this isn't even the same problem. Dealing with abuse for men and dealing with abuse for women require two completely different solutions. All this video serves to do is divide people in to two camps, man vs women, feminist vs masculinist, for seeming no reason other than people want thing to be black and white because then things are easier.

No they don't. Both need to be handled exactly the same way. By providing support to the victims and by locking up the abusers to teach them what they do is wrong and to protect potential future victims from them.

And what the video shows is currently there is a clear lack of support for male victims.

That is correct, that is what a single video that may have been faked shows. And when I mean "dealt with differently," I'm talking about how society approaches the problem to prevent it and how we discuss it. I was not talking about how the justice department deals with it, which should be to give equal jail time for assault regardless of gender. Basically, your complaint seems to be, "Look at how this man was treated poorly, clearly there is a bias against men." Can you show other statistics? Do you have any evidence that men being abused by women is rampant throughout society?

 

[Asita]

That is correct, that is what a single video that may have been faked shows. And when I mean "dealt with differently," I'm talking about how society approaches the problem to prevent it and how we discuss it. I was not talking about how the justice department deals with it, which should be to give equal jail time for assault regardless of gender. Basically, your complaint seems to be, "Look at how this man was treated poorly, clearly there is a bias against men." Can you show other statistics? Do you have any evidence that men being abused by women is rampant throughout society?

Well, since you asked, here's the NISVS 2010 Report on Intimate Partner Violence, courtesy of the USA's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Approximately 1 in 4 women and nearly 1 in 7 men in the U.S. have experienced severe violence from an intimate partner at some point in their lifetime

In the 12 months prior to taking the survey, 0.6% or an estimated 686,000 women in the United States were raped by an intimate partner (Table 2.2). Too few men reported rape by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to taking the survey to produce a reliable estimate. Also, 2.3% of women, and 2.5% of men, experienced other forms of sexual violence by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to the survey. Approximately 0.5% of men were made to penetrate an intimate partner in the 12 months[footnote]The artificial separation of "made to penetrate" from "rape" is one of the more annoying things about these reports, but given that this study precedes the Department of Justice updating its definition of rape to allow for male victims at all only last year - 3 years after this study - its presence here is hardly surprising and hard to hold against it. That said, however, the "made to penetrate" figure effectively is our figure for male rape victims, or at least a significant subset for it[/footnote] preceding the survey, whereas too few women were made to penetrate an intimate partner to produce a reliable estimate. With the exception of sexual coercion, where the 12-month estimate was significantly higher for women than men (p < .05), none of the other estimates were significantly different.

Both of the above quotes can be found on page 14 of the full report. The report goes on to demonstrate that while there is a statistically significant difference in lifetime reports on physical violence for those surveyed, the figures are not as pronounced as we might be inclined to think (32.9% of women vs. 28.1% of men for "any physical violence"), and the 12 month prevalence following it showed very nearly identical figures in overall prevalence, with men coming very slightly ahead (4.0% of women vs. 4.7% of men for "any physical violence").

Specifically, with regard to women's lifetime experience of violence by an intimate partner: nearly 1 in 10 has been raped; approximately 1 in 6 has experienced sexual violence other than rape; approximately 1 in 4 has experienced severe physical violence and nearly 1 in 3 has been slapped, pushed, or shoved; more than 1 in 10 has been stalked; and nearly 1 in 2 has experienced psychological aggression. With regard to men's lifetime experience of violence by an intimate partner: approximately 1 in 12 has experienced sexual violence other than rape; nearly 1 in 7 has experienced severe physical violence and 1 in 4 has been slapped, pushed or shoved; nearly 1 in 48 has been stalked; and nearly 1 in 2 has experienced psychological aggression.

(Quote drawn from page 65 in the "Discussion" section of the full report).

While I certainly would never go so far as to say that men are at greater risk than women, the numbers are far closer together than common discourse would suggest (wherein it's not uncommon to see male victims be described as statistically insignificant). According to the CDC's numbers, however, while women are victimized more often than men, the spirit of the sentiment that men are almost - to coin a phrase - laughably 'undervictimized' only really holds true in the case of their likelihood of being stalked.

I hope that was helpful.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

These topics dominate a good majority of the forums and each one is just as pointless as the last. Neither side is ever willing to see the other.

Neither side can see the other because both "sides" are ultimately meaningless.

 

[lunavixen]

snip

There is more research into DV against women because more women report that they are being abused by a partner or spouse, far more so than men. I think there is about an 11% disparity of an already underreported crime, so the figures and statistics we have are more than likely incorrect anyway. A lot of studies also don't take into account provocation and instigation when they're being made/tested/sampled.

 

[generals3]

Can you show other statistics? Do you have any evidence that men being abused by women is rampant throughout society?

First of all define "rampant" and second of all why does it have to be rampant? Do we need to wait until the abuse is rampant before those who get abused can be taken seriously? So if there is less than X victims we should just throw our arms up in the air and say "screw em"?

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Do we need to wait until the abuse is rampant before those who get abused can be taken seriously?

Wait until the abuse is rampant? It will never reach that stage. There would have to be a HUGE physical & mental change in how the genders are built, only then is there a remote possibility of women domestically abusing their male partners becoming "rampant".

I feel this will never be taken seriously as issue because men are expected to stand up for themselves and solve their own problems. I personally feel that is the best mindset when it comes to domestic abuse from an adult male perspective.

If a male friend of mine told me his girlfriend was physically abusing him (to the point where it's actually hurting him) and he's just silently putting up with it....we would have a nice long chat about WTF is wrong with him, why he's letting that happen and why he isn't taking control of the situation. I will encourage him to get his shit together and that will be the extent of my support as a fellow male. It's in HIS OWN BENEFIT to stand up for himself and I would do my best to make him realize that.

It will never be taken seriously that males need "support" to save them from their violent female partners, both men AND women tend laugh at the notion or find it very strange/awkward at best.

 

[White Lightning]

OT: Don't care. The point stands- men are also victims of violence, and this is acknowledged far less than male-on-female violence is. Both should be stopped, and in order to do that, both must be recognized as a problem. Discussion ends.

Not so fast. Male on female violence is a much bigger problem - the point in saying "both should be stopped" is to confuse the two as being equivalent problems. It's like having one anti-war person and one pro-war person debate each other - the frame is that these are "equal" positions which should be respected equally.

We should talk about problems in proportion to their importance, and therefore should talk much much more about male-on-female violence.

I can't tell if you're serious or not, so if you were joking then just ignore me.

Why does it matter who has more violence directed at them? Why can't we all agree that it's bad and everyone should be friends? It sounds like you're trying to say "Don't complain cuz someone has it worse" which is a stupid thing to say because it sounds like you're trying to make it a contest.

Man screw the capthas, I have a way harder time standing still than jumping and chewing bubble gum

 

[Lieju]

It was edited and selective in it's presentation.

Well no shit.
You could easily stage similar things and make it appear like the reactions were completely opposite.
It wasn't a scientific study or anything.

The point was that attitudes towards male-on-female and female-on-male violence are different.
You can argue whether it made the point well, and whether it for example reinforced attitudes that women have it too easy and always will get help if they're abused or something, but being surprised at it being edited?

Seriously?

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Why can't women do the same?

Fun fact: its impossible for you to answer this without being branded a sexist by this forum. Go ahead and try.

Because the genders aren't 100% identical in every aspect, otherwise we wouldn't need to call them male and female.

Those seeking 100% "equality" will always find themselves lost or confused.

I don't really care what a bunch of anons on the internet brand me, my only goal is to get straight to the point and get people to see the core reasons behind why things are they way they are.

 

[generals3]

Why can't women do the same?

Fun fact: its impossible for you to answer this without being branded a sexist by this forum. Go ahead and try.

Because the genders aren't 100% identical in every aspect, otherwise we wouldn't need to call them male and female.

Those seeking 100% "equality" will always find themselves lost or confused.

I don't really care what a bunch of anons on the internet brand me, my only goal is to get straight to the point and get people to see the core reasons behind why things are they way they are.

In this case however the differences are irrelevant. Physical superiority cannot be used because even defending yourself can get you branded as an abuser if you're a man. And any other action a man can take, so can a woman. Although no, for men seeking help is harder because they have no shelters, very little help lines and won't be taken seriously by the authorities. They have less options than women and yet are expected to handle things themselves. Makes little sense.