BubbleBurst said:
Except, well, they don't. Ifnothing else, this thread has made that pretty clear. Everyone knows "Rape(tm)" is wrong, but lots of people only think of "Rape" as a violent stranger assault. People don't think about rape in the context of consent, or lack thereof. Even people who do think of that can have trouble determining what "consent" is, and when it's been obtained. Hell, even among the 40-odd posts on this forum, we haven't reached a clear consensus on that. If only we could educate ourselves better, and make certain that society as a whole was educated better. Possibly from a source of authority? Maybe in some sort of educational setting...
The point I was attempting to make with my rambling was that there simply isn't an agreed upon consensus for what constitutes "consent," primarily because the parameters for said consent revolve entirely around context.
Unfortunately, due to the nebulous nature of the idea, what one person considers to be "technical rape" in one situation can, with just as much validity, be considered a fun quirk to another in a different situation. The only
concrete forms of a lack of consent are "No" and any instance where sex is forced, violently or otherwise...and that "otherwise" can be somewhat thorny too. Psychological threats are very real, but someone could very easily claim to have felt forced in any circumstance.
Which is why, I suppose, it needs to be addressed on an individual basis, primarily through communication and adjudication between responsible adults.
Communication, I believe, being the key element in most, if not all, of the fuzzy consent stuff.
BubbleBurst said:
I didn't ignore that part at all, I just didn't quote it in my response for brevity's sake, and because I thought his "So to sum up" summed his point up pretty well. What you're ignoring is that each of our (Shanicus' and my) examples include someone taking advantage of another person in a disabled state. You and Runic Knight appear (to me) to be saying that someone who is voluntarily intoxicated is still responsible for the decisions that they make while intoxicated. To a point, I agree with you. If you go out and tip a cow, if you get behind a wheel while drunk, that's on you. If someone takes advantage of you because they're in a disabled state, that person is the actor, and that act (you know, rape) is on them.
I apologize for using "ignored," when I meant "missed." Less antagonistic sounding. Both of your examples left out any agency on the part of the drunk, impaired or not.
If you'd said you were, say, "convincing" the person it was a good idea to get into that cart to the point where they agreed or "confused" them into thinking their wallet was, in fact, not their own and using that to get them to hand it over willingly...then those would have been closer parallels to what I was suggesting.
In either of those instances, you'd be the asshole doing the wrong, but the drunk would still have made a decision, thereby expressing some level of agency, which was impaired by their own previous decision.
Someone driving while drunk first chose to drink, then they chose to drive, while drunk, which "impaired" their decision making...and yet, they're still held accountable for subsequent decisions and their outcomes.
To be more specific, a drunk driver who kills someone is responsible for each decision leading up to that as well as the result.
A drunk who is convinced into going down a hill in a cart toward grizzly bears is, still, responsible for each decision leading up to that, as well as the result...however, the other party is at fault for
their decision, which was to mislead and endanger the drunk.
The same can be said for someone who agrees to sex while drunk and regrets it later. They made the decision to drink and are responsible for subsequent decisions...UNLESS-
We come to a bit of a problem. How drunk is too drunk to make decisions? I've been incredibly drunk, good sirs/madams, and still retained enough mental acuity to recognize when I wasn't pleased with a situation and what decisions I was or was not making. If, however, you're talking about black out drunk? Someone so drunk that they literally cannot put up any sort of resistance to someone if they wanted to? You're unconscious? Etc? And someone takes advantage of you?
They are 100% in the wrong for their actions. You, however, are still responsible for your initial decision to get wasted, but NOT the result, since you weren't taking part in the decision making process.
*shrug* It's just a matter of recognizing personal responsibility and decision-making opportunities...I hope that explained where I was coming from a bit better?
Spot1990 said:
Which is a decision you made on your own that could potentially harm or kill others. The fact is if you have sex with someone while too drunk to make an informed decision that is still also a thing being done TO you. Someone is taking advantage of your impaired state. Just like you can't give legal consent in terms of signing a contract when you are impaired because it is someone encouraging you to make a decision you may not have made when in full control and therefore taking advantage of your current state.
I also wish people would just stop and think how creepy they sound when they try and defend drunken consent. Almost like "Hey you chose to drink that makes you fair game." How does that not make people's skin crawl.
I believe I addressed most of this above...but, sincerely, I take umbrage to that last statement.
"Hey you chose to drink that makes you fair game."
First, I never once said anything like the above.
Second, you're conflating recognition of personal responsibility, along with the nuances/context/degree of intoxication involved in the situation, with what appears to be...approval for negative consequence? Fair game? Seriously?
Anybody who believes someone who is drunk to be "fair game" is an asshole. But. The person who chose to drink made the decision to drink and to impair themselves. They did not choose to be abused with their decision, nor do they deserve it, but they've made a decision that opens them up to the potential for said assholes to benefit.
I hope I'm getting this across well enough. I'm quite tired.
Edit: In regards to impairment and contracts...since I glazed over and missed it at first.
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/laws-legal-contracts-mental-impairment-61128.html
A person who is using drugs or alcohol could be temporarily impaired. Signing a contract with a supplier while you're out drinking might be one such situation where this issue could arise. Legal website FindLaw emphasizes that being intoxicated is not typically a way to get out of a contract. There is an exception to this rule if the other person can prove you knew they were intoxicated and took advantage of them. For example, if you knew the supplier did not want to work with you and kept buying him drinks until he was drunk enough to sign, he might be able to get out of the contract.
Someone purposefully getting you drunk in order to get you to be more open to the idea of fucking them is, without a doubt, a really shitty thing to do...but, again, we're into context and what the circumstances of the events are...and, again, into what constitutes "too drunk." Even then, you're not guaranteed to no longer be responsible, in the contract sense anyway.