Wall Street protests

[Ashannon Blackthorn]

It's a weird situation. two things are pretty clear. 1) Things are bad and somehow need ot change for the better. 2) Most of the protestors out there now don't have a sweet clue about how things are working or how it effects them.

If we can change number 2 to influence number 1, well now things might start getting interesting. Right now it comes across as more "random protests against the man cause the man is bad" than anything. Annoying cause it plays right into governments interests to have such stuff happen. They can justify the force used to stop the protests, enact laws they want to counter future protests (and help their positions) and it kinda cycles.

 

[Epona]

The mainstream media hasn't counted for a long time but since I did learn about this from CNN, maybe the mainstream media is picking it up. Honestly though, I learn more news from forums like this than I do from the mainstream media. I haven't watched the news in years.

Well, I didn't mean how useful it was in informing people, I might how useful it was for getting people angry about things. Most people don't go research things for themselves.

I think you underestimate the internet. The internet:

- can get people angry about things
- can help people research things (if they want to)
- can tell people what to think (if they don't want to research)
- has been serving as a replacement for the mainstream media for atleast a decade

One thing people KNOW without being told is that their money is stretched thin and they are working as hard or harder than they ever have. They know that Wall Street and the bankers play a role in that.

Sounds to me like you're trying to get us angry and tell us what to think, via the internet.

That's funny because it sounds to me like some are telling me what to think too. Guess that's how debates work.

 

[LordFisheh]

Those riots in London, it's coming to us isn't it?

We over here in Britain seem to get your weather a few weeks afterwards... maybe that's how it works...

OT: I'm totally ignorant on this matter (and it scares me). For one thing I haven't heard about this until now, and I can guess why people may want to protest Wall Street, and I understand Wall Street as a location in a way... but then again, forgive me if I'm wrong, they aren't protesting where they can really annoy those who will be able to make a difference? I don't really understand...

Back on the London riots, which I understand a bit more, I see them as a bit different. That was supposedly caused by a shooting, but then degenerated into looting and hate crimes, where the looting was perpetrated largely by previous offenders, but also some people no doubt participating due to the squeeze they are under from this government. And now in response to this, the home secretary wants to abolish human rights (I wish I was joking...).

I guess I hope that these Wall Street protests don't wind up/ haven't wound up like the London riots for 3 reasons: 1) The fact that it's such a horrific thing to happnen, 2) more news coverage on riots spreading increased fear (and that I've just seen too much due to the UK riots), and 3) that it may encourage the whole abolition of human rights in this country...

You know what I think?

I think people the world over are sick and tired of seeing their lives controlled by politicians who are paid off by corporations. Given the first chance to protest or riot, they do, no matter the reason. In your case, police brutality. In our case, they took it straight to Wall Street.

Ask anyone, someone you know, someone on the streets, anyone. Ask them if they trust their government. Ask them if they trust banks or Wall Street or corporations in general.

I also believe that when enough people are ready to explode, all hell will break loose and it won't matter if they "understand all the politics". Why would people who don't trust politics, care to understand it?

What kind of excuse is anger for the murder of innocents, the destruction of livelihoods and the theft of property?

By that logic, we should forgive the police their brutality, because they were angry too. Or something.

 

[Epona]

It's a weird situation. two things are pretty clear. 1) Things are bad and somehow need ot change for the better. 2) Most of the protestors out there now don't have a sweet clue about how things are working or how it effects them.

If we can change number 2 to influence number 1, well now things might start getting interesting. Right now it comes across as more "random protests against the man cause the man is bad" than anything. Annoying cause it plays right into governments interests to have such stuff happen. They can justify the force used to stop the protests, enact laws they want to counter future protests (and help their positions) and it kinda cycles.

Sounds like you fear the government.

 

[Epona]

Those riots in London, it's coming to us isn't it?

We over here in Britain seem to get your weather a few weeks afterwards... maybe that's how it works...

OT: I'm totally ignorant on this matter (and it scares me). For one thing I haven't heard about this until now, and I can guess why people may want to protest Wall Street, and I understand Wall Street as a location in a way... but then again, forgive me if I'm wrong, they aren't protesting where they can really annoy those who will be able to make a difference? I don't really understand...

Back on the London riots, which I understand a bit more, I see them as a bit different. That was supposedly caused by a shooting, but then degenerated into looting and hate crimes, where the looting was perpetrated largely by previous offenders, but also some people no doubt participating due to the squeeze they are under from this government. And now in response to this, the home secretary wants to abolish human rights (I wish I was joking...).

I guess I hope that these Wall Street protests don't wind up/ haven't wound up like the London riots for 3 reasons: 1) The fact that it's such a horrific thing to happnen, 2) more news coverage on riots spreading increased fear (and that I've just seen too much due to the UK riots), and 3) that it may encourage the whole abolition of human rights in this country...

You know what I think?

I think people the world over are sick and tired of seeing their lives controlled by politicians who are paid off by corporations. Given the first chance to protest or riot, they do, no matter the reason. In your case, police brutality. In our case, they took it straight to Wall Street.

Ask anyone, someone you know, someone on the streets, anyone. Ask them if they trust their government. Ask them if they trust banks or Wall Street or corporations in general.

I also believe that when enough people are ready to explode, all hell will break loose and it won't matter if they "understand all the politics". Why would people who don't trust politics, care to understand it?

What kind of excuse is anger for the murder of innocents, the destruction of livelihoods and the theft of property?

By that logic, we should forgive the police their brutality, because they were angry too. Or something.

So what will you do, nothing? Will that improve anything or will things continue to get worse?

I can tell you that Wall Street destroyed many families over here with it's greed and they got rewarded for it. If you think that is wrong, well so do those protestors.

 

[Romblen]

I've heard about it, but I don't think it's getting very far mainly because it's a bunch of people having first world problems. I've seen a total of two promotional pictures about it. One was a woman with a note saying that she *gasp* had to pay taxes even with two daughters. The other was a man saying he could no longer afford to send his daughter to college. Boo hoo, I have to pay for my education, but you don't see me acting like I'm oppressed because of it.

 

[LordFisheh]

So what will you do, nothing? Will that improve anything or will things continue to get worse?

I can tell you that Wall Street destroyed many families over here with it's greed and they got rewarded for it. If you think that is wrong, well so do those protestors.

What, so the solution is to go and smash some windows on wall street? And things only get worse once it spills over even more and a couple of people are beaten to death for trying to protect their electronics store.

Honestly, I see two states. The first is protest, which should be peaceful. If it's not, for whatever reason, the whole thing just descends into thuggery. And it accomplishes nothing, it just sets cars on fire and the government comes back in a few months with a law to obliterate another freedom to stop it happening again. The second would be a revolutions, which I wouldn't wholly oppose. But again, a revolution isn't some activist smashing windows while the local thugs nick a TV; it's a concerted effort to bring down a government.

 

[Madara XIII]

Annoying Americans being even more annoying than usual.

I say this because what they're doing seems a bit irrational. Honestly I can see being mad at the rich fellows and what not, but they're not really protesting towards a place that'll make a difference.


.....*Facepalm* Dammit America. Everytime I turn my head for a second you fulfill a common stereotype or just bring me even more shame.

Yeah. It's annoying to hear about and personally I hope this stops as soon as possible.

 

[LordFisheh]

I've heard about it, but I don't think it's getting very far mainly because it's a bunch of people having first world problems. I've seen a total of two promotional pictures about it. One was a woman with a note saying that she *gasp* had to pay taxes even with two daughters. The other was a man saying he could no longer afford to send his daughter to college. Boo hoo, I have to pay for my education, but you don't see me acting like oppressed because of it.

So basically, if you, by no fault of your own, are born into a poor family, you can't get a degree. You need that degree for a well paying job. You don't get a decent amount of money, and so your children don't have enough to go to university either. And so meritocracy is thrown out the window, because it's all about whether you can afford to do well for yourself.

But you have the money to pay for your education. So all is well.

 

[Epona]

So what will you do, nothing? Will that improve anything or will things continue to get worse?

I can tell you that Wall Street destroyed many families over here with it's greed and they got rewarded for it. If you think that is wrong, well so do those protestors.

What, so the solution is to go and smash some windows on wall street? And things only get worse once it spills over even more and a couple of people are beaten to death for trying to protect their electronics store.

Honestly, I see two states. The first is protest, which should be peaceful. If it's not, for whatever reason, the whole thing just descends into thuggery. And it accomplishes nothing, it just sets cars on fire and the government comes back in a few months with a law to obliterate another freedom to stop it happening again. The second would be a revolutions, which I wouldn't wholly oppose. But again, a revolution isn't some activist smashing windows while the local thugs nick a TV; it's a concerted effort to bring down a government.

So you would support a revolution but you wouldn't support violence before that revolution? That's not realistic.

I can see that you fear government. You are afraid to move because you fear the government will punish you with more laws and restrictions. I am also afraid of government and I don't believe that it will fix itself.

Here's a nice quote: "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

 

[boyvirgo666]

Funny how little it's been reported.

But yeah, protesting, people arresting for filming, police using pepper spray on people for no good reason, the usual.

Yeah, maybe I wasn't paying attention or maybe the media just wasn't reporting on this. I don't watch TV but my homepage (igoogle) has a CNN feed and this is the first time I have seen anything about it.

Those riots in London, it's coming to us isn't it?

Finally. Thats all i have to say.

 

[Romblen]

snip

So basically, if you, by no fault of your own, are born into a poor family, you can't get a degree. You need that degree for a well paying job. You don't get a decent amount of money, and so your children don't have enough to go to university either. And so meritocracy is thrown out the window, because it's all about whether you can afford to do well for yourself.

But you have the money to pay for your education. So all is well.

Being born into a poor family has nothing to do with it. I'm not getting assistance from my family. I'm funding my education. If I can do that, so can anyone else.

 

[Firstmark_Bannor]

It's a weird situation. two things are pretty clear. 1) Things are bad and somehow need ot change for the better. 2) Most of the protestors out there now don't have a sweet clue about how things are working or how it effects them.

If we can change number 2 to influence number 1, well now things might start getting interesting. Right now it comes across as more "random protests against the man cause the man is bad" than anything. Annoying cause it plays right into governments interests to have such stuff happen. They can justify the force used to stop the protests, enact laws they want to counter future protests (and help their positions) and it kinda cycles.

Sounds like you fear the government.

Unfortunately He's exactly right. And he has good reason to fear the government, which is a shame. It goes to show how bad the US government is.

I support the riots in principle, but am of the opinion more drastic measures should be taken against certain corporations.

 

[Madara XIII]

You know what I think?

I think people the world over are sick and tired of seeing their lives controlled by politicians who are paid off by corporations. Given the first chance to protest or riot, they do, no matter the reason. In your case, police brutality. In our case, they took it straight to Wall Street.

Ask anyone, someone you know, someone on the streets, anyone. Ask them if they trust their government. Ask them if they trust banks or Wall Street or corporations in general.

I also believe that when enough people are ready to explode, all hell will break loose and it won't matter if they "understand all the politics". Why would people who don't trust politics, care to understand it?

OI! You there. Stop that. You're just being silly. Protests such as these should do what they can to remain as peaceful as possible.....but then again they are Americans so that'll go off well. DAMN MY PEOPLE!

Secondly half the nitwits over there probably don't know what the lickedy split is going on or exactly why they should get involved. Try protesting to those who can actually make a difference rather than the corporate big wigs.

BTW, I like the big wigs considering I'm one who loves getting involved with politics and corporation. Gotta feed my lust for power somewhere.

So to quote Tom Waits
"You lot who preach restraint and watch your waist as well Should learn for once the way the world is run"

 

[SovietPanda]

-Snip-

You seem to be looking at revolution as a rational act, it isn't and so why would you expect all of it's participants to be rational? All you need for a revolution is angry people.

Since when are revolutions irrational? You don't just get a bunch of angry people together that accidentally topple governments. The american revolution, the communist revolution in russia, the recent spate of citizen movements overthrowing regimes across the middle east. None of these were irrational, they were done for a reason to achieve specific goals.

To be clear I don't know alot about the american situation, I dont know how valid these protesters points are. But i'm pretty sure that one protest does not a revolution make. There were what 500 or so arrested so i'd assume maybe a few thousand people protesting? with a population of 200 million? (forgive me if thats wrong im too lazy to look it up) It's hardly even a popular movement.

god i love living in australia these days.

 

[Epona]

-Snip-

You seem to be looking at revolution as a rational act, it isn't and so why would you expect all of it's participants to be rational? All you need for a revolution is angry people.

Since when are revolutions irrational? You don't just get a bunch of angry people together that accidentally topple governments. The american revolution, the communist revolution in russia, the recent spate of citizen movements overthrowing regimes across the middle east. None of these were irrational, they were done for a reason to achieve specific goals.

To be clear I don't know alot about the american situation, I dont know how valid these protesters points are. But i'm pretty sure that one protest does not a revolution make. There were what 500 or so arrested so i'd assume maybe a few thousand people protesting? with a population of 200 million? (forgive me if thats wrong im too lazy to look it up) It's hardly even a popular movement.

god i love living in australia these days.

Sure revolutions have an end goal but not all participants are aware of all the politics involved and may only care about the ends. In the case of this protest, to prosecute those responsible for the economic collapse of 2008 instead of rewarding them. If it were a revolution, the goal would likely be to overthrow the corrupt government and start anew.

That was my point, that not all participants need a political science degree and understand everything that led to this. The idea that if all participants are not 100% informed of the politics, then a protest or revolution will fail is ridiculous.

 

[hooksashands]

It truly disgusts me how the investors are all standing on their balconies, looking down at the people who's lives are effected by the financial decisions they make... and laughing at them whilst drinking champagne. I'm tired of peaceful protests. Bring back the lynch mobs.

 

[Epona]

It truly disgusts me how the investors are all standing on their balconies, looking down at the people who's lives are effected by the financial decisions they make... and laughing at them whilst drinking champagne. I'm tired of peaceful protests. Bring back the lynch mobs.

Well of course they were laughing at the peasants. Probably thinking those peasants should get back to work to pay in to their 401k.

 

[hooksashands]

It truly disgusts me how the investors are all standing on their balconies, looking down at the people who's lives are effected by the financial decisions they make... and laughing at them whilst drinking champagne. I'm tired of peaceful protests. Bring back the lynch mobs.

Well of course they were laughing at the peasants. Probably thinking those peasants should get back to work to pay in to their 401k.

For me the issue gets even broader. Here we are in the 21st century, still living in a capitalist-steered economy. These people are the rich elite, the ones who are supposed to be taking care of us, the chosen few, the council of elders, the wise men and women who are supposed to lead us to glory... And they laugh at the common citizen and poor alike, while getting drunk on expensive liquor. It's sad. It's sad, and it angers me, but it also makes me afraid.

This kind of unrest harkens me to William Golding's Lord of the Flies, where a bunch of children stranded on an island eventually turn savage. At the end of the book (and the movie) when Ralph is being chased in a hunt to the death by the other children, an Army vessel shows up and the kids all stop. The adults have come. Order is restored. And so the point of the story is kids may have been saved by the adults, but when the same barbaric breakdown of civilization happens to the adults, who will save them?

 

[Scars Unseen]

I've heard about it, but I don't think it's getting very far mainly because it's a bunch of people having first world problems. I've seen a total of two promotional pictures about it. One was a woman with a note saying that she *gasp* had to pay taxes even with two daughters. The other was a man saying he could no longer afford to send his daughter to college. Boo hoo, I have to pay for my education, but you don't see me acting like oppressed because of it.

So basically, if you, by no fault of your own, are born into a poor family, you can't get a degree. You need that degree for a well paying job. You don't get a decent amount of money, and so your children don't have enough to go to university either. And so meritocracy is thrown out the window, because it's all about whether you can afford to do well for yourself.

But you have the money to pay for your education. So all is well.

I'm sorry, but the vast number of people that complain that they can't afford an educationare simply making excuses for themselves. I grew up in a falling apart trailer house drinking well water that tasted like iron. I never had cable TV, the internet, video games, or any other luxury that people take for granted today. You know what I did? I joined the military. Now I am getting an education. If I hadn't been willing, or was physically unable to serve, I still could have pursued an education by applying for scholarships, grants and loans. If you have the desire and the determination, education is available.