Warhammer 40k vs starwars... is there any possible way for SW to win?

[Alex_P]

it seems clear that 'the force' is just a sci-fie way to say God and Satan. we choose wich side we play for but those sides exist separate and individual reguardless of a persons choice.

There's a dualistic element to many descriptions of the Force, but it's hardly that clear-cut.

Lucas drew pretty prominently on pantheistic and mystical beliefs when creating Star Wars, and others have followed suit. The cosmology that's developed around the "Expanded Universe" generally paints the Force as a single, all-encompassing thing. Now, sure, the EU is really inconsistent when it actually comes to big thematic things (both writers and fans seem to save all their energy for synchronizing little pointless details instead), but that's still the tendency. The best example is with the depictions of "Force ghosts". Most people just kinda fade into the universal lifeforce when they die. But some Jedi and Sith, powerful in their mastery of the Force, linger -- but in very different ways.

The classic "Force ghosts" like Obi-Wan are essentially bodhisattvas. They are always present and supremely aware. The imagery here is that they're so enlightened that they can "become one with the Force" -- the universe itself speaks through them. They're already so connected as people that they can fully merge with the universe without having to stop being themselves.

Sith ghosts like Ajunta Pall or Marka Ragnos, in contrast, are more like spirit-echoes. They're rooted in place. Most of them come off as emotionally unstable and barely aware of their surroundings. These are people who fought against universal connectedness so hard that they created a little bubble in which a shadow of their self lingers even after their bodies have died. They're "ghosts" in the conventional sense -- spirits who refuse to pass on.

The essential thing here is that the Force is, well, everything. And it's all one. The Dark Side path isn't an alternate Force, it's an expression of fighting against destiny, fate, karma, of placing yourself above the transcendental harmony of the universe.

...

See, WH40k is just too over the top. It makes it hard for me to actually enjoy it, to be honest.

I concur.
Too much "WAAAAAGH!!!"
Too many headtubes.
Way too many goddamn microcephalic Space Marines.

(Of course, I think Star Wars is rather ridiculous in its own way, too.)

-- Alex

 

[Wyatt]

the Jedi are sensitive to picking up several forms of energy, not only that of the force. they can feel and use the force for their powers, but it isn't just the force which they can sense.

... think of it like this.
when the death star destroys that planet, kenobi feels it so much so that he is disorinted by it. or like when all the jedi are ambushed, yoda feels it and is brought to his knees.


now insert the warp... which is kinda like that... only 50 times louder and non stop.
it would drive them stark raving mad.

unfounded assumptions.

the massive deaths caused 'ripples' in the force itself. that in turn caused Kenobi and Yoda to feel it via the force. it was the deaths that effected the force itself sicne the force is created by life.

i think of this topic like this.

both light and sound can carry information (magic) but in different ways. but a bright light wouldnt effect a blind man anymore than a loud sound would effect a deaf one. so you have a situation where the warp is sound and the force is light so psykers are blind with amazing hearing and jedi are deaf with awsome eye sight. neither one is effected by the others source of magic.

as i said, too just assume that jedi would be taken over by demons is to make several assumptions that ignore some basic ideas. the FIRST thing we would need to do to truly decide this 'argument' is to decide WICH source of magic we are going to use to compare. if its the Force than there ARE no demons, so to simply say that a Jedi would be ate by demons is starting out making the assumption that our 'war' was taking place in the 40K universe where magic is governed by the warp and not in the Star Wars universe where magic is governed by the force.

now id like to add that im a big fan of 40K. but i seriously dont think that a war between the Empire and the Imperium would be the walk in the park some think it would be. as has been said before the Empire enjoys the ability to mass produce armys, they have vast fleets to be used for space controll, but most telling of all they have an intact R&D ability. the guys that designed and built the death star didnt do it because they found the plans in some long forgotten 'template' discovered by accident someplace. the throguth it up all by themselves and more importiant in less than the time it took from a new hope to return of the Jedi they IMPROVED the plan's by a wide margin. so i say too you that what ever super duper gun your so rpoud of the 40K boys having, the empire would have them too in very short order and the difference would be that while the 40K boys are only able to give their very best troops their very best weapons, the trillions of clone troopers rolling off the empires production lines would be armed with the very best the 40k boys could bost. even the issue of genetics wouldnt be much of an issue, im certian the Empires R&D guys could design a clone trooper that was 15 feet tall with 8 lungs and could breath fire. and then mass produce them by the billions, arm them with copys of the best weapons that the IMperium has to offer, after they have been improved uppon by the Empires INTACT tech base and you better hope the 40K boys can win quick because if the war goes on long enough to bring that R&D into the picture its lights out and game over for 40K.

you better hope that the God emperor turns into some kind of living god for real because nothing else would save them.

ive no doubt if you plunk down a clone army as seen in the movies on a planet full of Imperium troops that the Imperium would go through them like shit through a goose ....... at the start. but once the Empire starts to play catch-up and when they DO catch-up they would roll over the imperium like nothing. when the empire starts cloning Space marines by the billions and start equiping them with upgraded copys of the best 40k weapons, couple that with their fleet advantages no one can really argue that the empire wouldnt win.

The Imperium destroys planets every day, and has been doing so for tens of thousands of years. It's not a matter of building a weapon to take out a planet, but which one to use.

let us do some basic math shall we?

ok now you say that the imperium destroys planets . by planets ill assume you mean atleast 2.

now you go on and add 'every day' too that so we can assume that a year is 365 days and at 2 planets a day for 365 day we have a total of 730 dead planets a year.

ok now you say they have been doing that for TENS of thousands of years, again TENS of thousands means atleast 20,000 years so we take 730 dead planets a year times 20,000 years leaves us with 14,600,000 dead planets.

these are MINIMUM numbers implyed by your statment btw. if we killed 5 planets a day times 40,000 years that number becomes 73,000,000.

still you may have a point. 14,600,000 dead planets sounds about right for the madness that is 40K, but im just wondering what the fuck is left for them to fight over besides earth and mars that is. *snickers*

 

[Wyatt]

Lucas drew pretty prominently on pantheistic and mystical beliefs when creating Star Wars, and others have followed suit. The cosmology that's developed around the "Expanded Universe" generally paints the Force as a single, all-encompassing thing. Now, sure, the EU is really inconsistent when it actually comes to big thematic things (both writers and fans seem to save all their energy for synchronizing little pointless details instead), but that's still the tendency. The best example is with the depictions of "Force ghosts". Most people just kinda fade into the universal lifeforce when they die. But some Jedi and Sith, powerful in their mastery of the Force, linger -- but in very different ways.

The classic "Force ghosts" like Obi-Wan are essentially bodhisattvas. They are always present and supremely aware. The imagery here is that they're so enlightened that they can "become one with the Force" -- the universe itself speaks through them. They're already so connected as people that they can fully merge with the universe without having to stop being themselves.

Sith ghosts like Ajunta Pall or Marka Ragnos, in contrast, are more like spirit-echoes. They're rooted in place. Most of them come off as emotionally unstable and barely aware of their surroundings. These are people who fought against universal connectedness so hard that they created a little bubble in which a shadow of their self lingers even after their bodies have died. They're "ghosts" in the conventional sense -- spirits who refuse to pass on.

The essential thing here is that the Force is, well, everything. And it's all one. The Dark Side path isn't an alternate Force, it's an expression of fighting against destiny, fate, karma, of placing yourself above the transcendental harmony of the universe.

...

yeah im with you. thing is though you kinda kill yourself with your last line. the 'light side of the force' would be that transcendental harmony and the "dark side" would be anything that is against it. while both are a part of the force neither IS the force and cant be joined except at a meta level.

i understand what your saying though. but perhaps its better explaned like this. (i cant recall wich movie i got this from and it wasnt even a star wars movie. i think it was 'the witches of eastwick' but i cant be sure. anyhow its allways stuck with me) i think of the force as a chess board and the light and dark side are just the pieces of the opposing sides. the board and the pieces of both armys are all a part of the whole. but each aspect has its own functions.

the light exists to oppose the dark and vice versa while both of them are unique in their own way, with their own methods , goals and abilitys they are all a part of the same game or 'force'.

 

[Argentavis]

let us do some basic math shall we?

ok now you say that the imperium destroys planets . by planets ill assume you mean atleast 2.

now you go on and add 'every day' too that so we can assume that a year is 365 days and at 2 planets a day for 365 day we have a total of 730 dead planets a year.

ok now you say they have been doing that for TENS of thousands of years, again TENS of thousands means atleast 20,000 years so we take 730 dead planets a year times 20,000 years leaves us with 14,600,000 dead planets.

these are MINIMUM numbers implyed by your statment btw. if we killed 5 planets a day times 40,000 years that number becomes 73,000,000.

still you may have a point. 14,600,000 dead planets sounds about right for the madness that is 40K, but im just wondering what the fuck is left for them to fight over besides earth and mars that is. *snickers*

I see several misconceptions there:
1_ The Imperium is "only" 10-13 millennia old.
2_ The Milky Way has 200-400 billion stars. Even if one out of 1,000 of those had a planet, it would still be a lot of planets.
3_ Condemning a planet to Exterminatus is used only when the planet is considered impossible or very hard to retake and it's strategical value is not enough to make that effort. In fact, I daresay Exterminatus is a rarity in 40K.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

WH40K pwns all. Who doesn't like zombie robots?

 

[Calax]

Just throwing this out there, but Wouldn't almost the entire population from star wars be nulls to psykers in 40k?

 

[Enosh_]

Star Wars does have shields

Void shields, look them up

SW wins by sheer industrial capacity, while IoM ships are better, with cruisers being more than abble able to handle a ISD (that is going by ICS numbers, which put the power of SW weapons somewhere into teraton levels, 40k ships are similar in weapon powers but have much more durability in form of better shields (bigger ships have a lot of overlaping void shields, which recharge fast, very fast, by the time you bring down shield nb 2 out of 5, shield nb 1 is up again) and stronger hulls) but the SW galaxy has a mindblowing industrial capacity (remember Death star 2 build in 6 months in secret) and basicly drowns the IoM is ships and droids (but innitialy the GE starts out with less ships, the IoM has more than a million warp capable combat ship and quite some transport ships, while the GE only has 25.000 ISDs + an unknown number of escorts)

well as a note here, the industry of the IoM is more or less unknown, the only thing we have is the building of a cruiser by 1 feral world in 11 years and given that a feral world is somewhere on the level of 5000 B.C earth that's quite an accomplishment. But no one has any idea how fast ships can be build by more dedicated ship building yards, like the one around mars

1 Space marines = 100 storm troopers.

fixed for accuracy

 

[Sigenrecht]

1 Space marines = 1,000,000 storm troopers.

fixed for accuracy

Fixed for accuracy. I mean, come ON. A single space marine could probably take out an entire Star Destroyer; after he slaughtered the first four thousand or so, he'd run out of bolt , and then process to kill the next sixteen thousand with his chainsword until it was so clogged with the Stormtroopers' "Play. Laugh. Grow." armor and their mass-cloned flesh that it became inoperable, they'd pull out a combat knife to slay the next thirty-odd thousand until he flung it across a one-hundred meter stretch to squarely penetrate the forehead of a command officer and have it exit the other end, embedding itself in the wall so hard it could not be removed. With his bare hands, he'd slaughter every last motherf***er on the ship until he was pinned down and naked in the chamber where the Empire conveniently keeps everything large, dangerous and breakable and fling himself into the nearest power conduit, personal reactor on his back cooking off and causing the entire starship to blow.

And that's just number #10,000-MacGuffin marine of the odd-thousandth MacGuffin Chapter. I can't even say I'd be exaggerating; Blasters, their armor, etc. are useless poo-poo and I have come to the conclusion every droid or soldier ever manufactured/born in a galaxy far, far away must be near-sighted because they could not hit the day-side of a fully operational battle-station. I imagine the Empire would have been unstoppable had Palpatine provided everyone except Senior Respirator with health-care that covered contact lenses. Nevermind Space Marines are tiny specks of godliness sprinkled about a universe of death, darkness and unrealistic but nonetheless piss-scary scaling.

 

[Argentavis]

I have come to the conclusion every droid or soldier ever manufactured/born in a galaxy far, far away must be near-sighted because they could not hit the day-side of a fully operational battle-station.

I don't know. One Stormtrooper might be equal to a Space Marine, but if there are a hundred or so, the Space Marine will wipe the floor with them. The only challenge he may find is killing the last two at the same time, to prevent the aforomentioned Stormtrooper Effect from happening.

 

[Enosh_]

meh, blasters are on a similar level as lasguns in power output and lasguns in mass can and will kill a space marine. Hell you can 1 shot a (chaos) space marine using a lasgun with a hot shot (highest setting, emptys the entire mag in 1 shot), well Storm troopers probably don't have the same accuracy as Gaunt's Ghost, but even they are bound to actulay hit something once in a while, besides they sometimes also have thermal detonators which can fuck up a SM

Imperium would be quite a match for the empire...
unless of course they used the death star to destroy Terra.

no earth= no fanaticism inducing godhead, no orders/ direction for imperial guard, no hope...

yeah good luck getting anywhere near holy terra, especily given that there are enough of these http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/0/08/RamiliesClassStarFort.JPG in the sol system that you could walk from earth to jupiter on them, you see the launcher bays? that's for docking and combat repairing 6km long cruisers. and that's just the begining of actualy reaching earth.

and the fact that few people (if anyone) understands how those machines work. Destroy a Star Wars Factory they will make another one, destroy a WH 40k factory, chances are nobody knows how to make another one

wrong, there are very very few technologies that are actualy lost (they certanly know how to build a freaking forge), but they are also in SW, no one in SW knows how to build a transporter anymore, althrough they were build before and one was used by a freaking stage magican.

power:

lasgun - burn materialt and cauterize wound

blaster - supposed to leave small craters in people
max leaves .5m crater in concrete (a clone rifle was capable of this)

0/2

codex "city fighthing" (that's the name of it iirc) mentions that city fights are often fought due to motion sensors etc through multiple walls without the combatsmen ever seeing each other

 

[ThreeWords]

the force is a passive power which only sensitive individuals can tap into and use to their advantage. it works much like the ork 'Waagh' which is a metaphysical field that can interact with the physical realm with out actively being tied to the warp. ontop of this, the force has two sides, one emboding selflessness and one that embodies selfishness. (named light and dark sides) and despite being passive, usage of one side or the other can have mental and physical side effects.



Now, take a bunch of open minded individuals sensitively attuned to pick up a unique passive energy field and throw it into the warhammer universe where a powerful sentient metaphysical entity is agressively attacking their sensitive minds and bending them to its own corrupt will...

this i felt needs its own reply.

if the force works much like an ork waaagh than this makes my/our point for us. ork's arent taken over by demons when they use the power of the waaagh are they?

the sources of magic are different and the results of using those souces are just as different.

as to the people being attuned to pick up a passive energy field being open to attack is like saying a TV can be taken over by a cell phone signal.

Wow.. look what I started...

I feel like I've been... educated...

Nice one guys =P

 

[ame.kiri.yuki]

High Overlord Saurfang would win this battle with one Cleave.

 

[Wargamer]

Go to www.merzo.net

Select the "-10x" tab.

Compare Star Destroyer to Cobra Destroyer.

Cobras are the smallest, weakest warships in the 40K universe. In Battlefleet Gothic, they have 1 "Hit", 1 shield, Firepower 1 guns and Firepower 2 Torpedoes.

The standard Cruiser, the Luna, has 8 hits, 2 shields, Firepower 6 port guns, Firepower 6 Starboard guns, Firepower 2 port Lances (MASSIVE Lasers that ignore armour), Firepower 2 Starboard Lances and Firepower 6 Torps.

/thread.

 

[Wargamer]

Alrighty, sorry for the Double Post, but I feel it's worth bringing up some points to actually give a fair and balanced reasoning.

First, the Death Star. Stop bringing it up! People act as though the bastard things are a part of every fleet! We've seen two in the films, and I don't recall there ever being any more outside of Fanfics. Now, 40K has a Deathstar equivalent - the Planet Killer. It's far smaller (about half as long as a Super Star Destroyer), but it can still blow up planets. Literally, blow them up. It may not be Imperial, but the point remains that 40K has equivalent tech.

Now, let's focus on the mundane stuff, shall we? Rather than suggesting Darth Vader would personally fight the Imperium of Man, let's assume it's his armies and fleets that do it.

Stormtroopers:
Star Wars Stormtroopers aren't great. Their armour never seems to work for one. It seems fair to assume it is a Flak-equivalent; it protects from shrapnel, glancing hits, and mid-long range Blaster pistol / rifle shots. It's not designed to take a big hit and shrug it off.

Imperial Guard Stormtroopers have Carapace Armour, which can shrug off small arms (it's the equivalent of modern bullet-proof vests and such). They also have Hellguns, which make a mockery of anything short of Powered Armour (and in the newer rules, even that gets torn apart). As such, it seems best to treat SW Stormtroopers as 40K Guardsmen. The Imperium has a lot more Guard than SW has Stormtroopers (a million worlds, each providing 2,000 men a year minimum to the Imperial Guard, puts their recruitment at two billion soldiers a year. Then you factor in worlds like Cadia, who raise dozens or even hundreds of Regiments a year...).

Whilst a lot of people are reciting Space Marines, remember that 40K fluff states there is less than one Space Marine per world in the Imperium. They are not as common as the background makes them out to be, although they would obviously play a part if this hypothetical war became significant.

Star Destroyers:
As I have said, the Star Destroyer is tiny in 40K terms.

For those who don't understand the Gothic rule references I listed above, I shall try and explain; a Cobra has Str 1 Batteries. A battery consists of multiple guns of various types, ranging from massive shell-firing artillery to plasma cannons or laser cannons. All the weapons are treated as a single 'battery', with a Str value between 1 and 20. Batteries can stack if their fire arcs overlap.

The number of attack dice a Battery uses is worked out using a table, which varies the number of dice you roll based on range, direction the target is moving, and size (ie: an "Escort" like the Cobra, or a "Capital Ship" like the Cruisers or Battleships). Firepower 1 means the ship can only ever roll a single dice to attack with. It is therefore impossible for a Cobra, on its own, to ever threaten even the smallest of Cruisers; at best, it can knock a shield down, but then they simply reboot the shield next turn.

The Lunar is typical of an Imperial Navy Cruiser, with a Firepower of 6. That will typically work out to 3-4 attack dice against a fellow Cruiser, or 2-3 against an Escort (smaller target = harder to hit). Armour is a factor, but a Cruiser's batteries alone can usually knock a shield or two off its target. In the case of a Cobra, two hits would kill her - the first removes the shield, the second knocks off her single "Hit Point".

Then, we have Lances. Lances are massive energy cannons of unimaginable power. They always roll 1 dice per point of Firepower, regardless of range or other factors, and they always hit on a 4+ (the best roll possible). Batteries, by contrast, roll to hit using the armour value of their target (typically needing 5 or 6 on a single dice, or a roll of 6 against big warships). Essentially, being hit with a Lance is a death sentence.

Now, we remember that the Lunar has two Broadsides - it could fly between two targets and unleash enough firepower to destroy a few Escorts on either flank, or cause light damage to two equivalent cruisers (remember, most Cruisers have at least two shields you have to knock down first...). In addition to this, she can fire up to six Torpedoes a turn, which ignore shields.

A single Lunar Class Cruiser, therefore, could wade in against an entire Fleet of Star Destroyers, and blow the living hell out of them. Even if they get through her Shields, the Lunar has 8 Hits - it's eight times as durable as a Cobra.

The Lunar Class is also the single most common vessel in the Imperial Navy - there are countless other variations of Cruiser, Escort and Battleship out there... and the Astartes stuff is scary as hell.

Bat-Shit-Crazy Bigness!
Remember how the advance of the AT-AT made the ground shake? Remember how scared everyone gets when they see the Robot Cow approaching? Forget all that - 40K has God Machines.

Alright, let's be fair. The AT-AT is around 20m tall. That's, what, 65ft? The Warlord Titan is around 80-90ft tall (yes, FEET, a lot of people get this wrong), but compare their payloads.

First, Warlords are Void Protected. They have six Void Shield Generators, producing a cycling energy field that means as soon as one Void reaches critical, it shuts down and re-boots. In theory, a Warlord should always have at least one active Void Shield.

The presence of Voids gives the Titans a massive edge. Let's assume the AT-AT is just as strong, from a game mechanic point of view, as a Warlord - same armour, same number of Structure Points, main gun equal to a Volcano Cannon and secondary gun equal to Turbo Laser Destructor. The AT-AT will knock down most of the Warlord's Void Shields. Maybe even all of them. The Warlord then re-boots her shields (regaining, say, two of them) and returns fire - with no shields to protect her, the AT-AT will be crippled by the Warlord's volley. If the Warlord fired first, the AT-AT would be blown into a million pieces long before she scratched the Titan's paintwork.

All of this assumes, however, the AT-AT is as strong as the Warlord... and that's a big assumption. The AT-AT may be able to level a gun platform, Snow Speeder or a tank with a single burst of fire, but the Warlord is an Engine Killer - she's built to kill other Titans. You need entire Companies of battle tanks to threaten her when Titan-Killer weaponry is not available. A Titan doesn't go down unless two dozen Tanks all engage together. AT-ATs go down to towing cables.

It seems fair to say, therefore, that a Titan of any size would share the shit out of any Star Wars force it encountered.


Star Wars just gets hammered...

 

[GloatingSwine]

Star Destroyers:
As I have said, the Star Destroyer is tiny in 40K terms.

Tiny, but heavily armed.

I haven't got all the scary math nonsense to hand, but from people who have sat down and worked out the physics of what we see both Star Destroyers and IoM ships do to each other in the fiction (game rules are useless for establishing capability of 40k technology, as by the admission of GW it's all way out for reasons of game balance. On tabletop, a single lasgun hit has a decent chance of killing a Space Marine, in fluff they laugh at flashlights), and to rocks and planets, they're about even for armament (For reference, one Star Destroyer could perform an Exterminatus level attack on an unshielded planet in a few hours).

40k ships tend to take a lot more punishment as a matter of course, but they're going to be far from immune to a Star Destroyer's weaponry, and concentrated fire will bring them down.

However, there's one significant advantage that Star Wars ships hold. Their FTL system is fast, reliable, and doesn't take a side trip though hell. A battlegroup of Star Wars ships would be able to engage at will, picking a larger IoM force apart by jumping in, hammering a ship into oblivion with concentrated force, and then being long gone before any kind of response could happen, even with a small jump out beyond the system edge, it would take weeks for the Imperium fleet to catch up.

On the strategic level, that becomes even more powerful, as the IoM would be kept in almost complete disarray by an opponent who could strike with the bulk of their force at opposite sides of Imperial space in a matter of days, whereas Warp travel might take months to do the same.

(Remember, the approach of Ghaszghull's fleet with his Hulks and Roks in the third Armageddon War took about four weeks to make planetfall after he was detected at system edge, and there were only one or two imperial warships able to get into range to attack it, and they were insystem to start with, hyperspace in Star Wars can cross the galaxy in a matter of hours).

What this largely means is that the overwhelming disparity in ground combat power is rendered irrelevant, because the forces of the Imperium of Man can't ever pin the Galactic Empire down to a decent ground engagement, and they're losing materiel and transport capacity in space all the time to an opponent with equivalent firepower but immensely superior strategic mobility.

 

[Wargamer]

Now, this is one area I always get a bit... well, irritated with when cross-comparing universes.

People always assume both sides are on their home turf. That's ludicrous. Either we A) put both factions in Setting A, B) put both factions in Setting B, or C) we create some sort of neutral ground.

Star Wars ships cannot go Faster than Light in 40K. It's not possible. Remember that 40K ships reach "near light speeds" under their own conventional engines, and it still takes up to a week to travel from their Point of Entry to planet of destination. This is because the only way to travel Faster Than Light is to leave known reality and enter the Warp. This would mean that, if transferred into the 40K universe, Star Wars ships would be torn apart by Daemons the moment they entered Hyperspace.

Of course, if the reverse is applied, 40K ships would not be able to travel FTL either, and nor is it logical to apply both rules at once.

There's also the fact that FTL in Starwars is a joke. The idea their ships can routinely calculate the location and course of every object in the universe with such precision they can travel at FTL speeds from High Orbit of a planet to High Orbit of a planet on the far side of the universe is, frankly, idiotic. At least 40K applies a modicom of common sense, forcing ships to enter / leave the Warp far from significant stellar bodies.

 

[Pyro Paul]

the Jedi are sensitive to picking up several forms of energy, not only that of the force. they can feel and use the force for their powers, but it isn't just the force which they can sense.

... think of it like this.
when the death star destroys that planet, kenobi feels it so much so that he is disorinted by it. or like when all the jedi are ambushed, yoda feels it and is brought to his knees.


now insert the warp... which is kinda like that... only 50 times louder and non stop.
it would drive them stark raving mad.

unfounded assumptions.

the massive deaths caused 'ripples' in the force itself. that in turn caused Kenobi and Yoda to feel it via the force. it was the deaths that effected the force itself sicne the force is created by life.

i think of this topic like this.

both light and sound can carry information (magic) but in different ways. but a bright light wouldnt effect a blind man anymore than a loud sound would effect a deaf one. so you have a situation where the warp is sound and the force is light so psykers are blind with amazing hearing and jedi are deaf with awsome eye sight. neither one is effected by the others source of magic.

as i said, too just assume that jedi would be taken over by demons is to make several assumptions that ignore some basic ideas. the FIRST thing we would need to do to truly decide this 'argument' is to decide WICH source of magic we are going to use to compare. if its the Force than there ARE no demons, so to simply say that a Jedi would be ate by demons is starting out making the assumption that our 'war' was taking place in the 40K universe where magic is governed by the warp and not in the Star Wars universe where magic is governed by the force.

we don't choose one over the other, we simply imply that both fields exisit in the same realm. with fields like the Waagh produced by the orks, and void produced by some c'tan is no single all define magical power.


that said... just to assume that an acctively agressive entity which goes out of its way to take over developed and open minds that have little to no real protection would seemingly ignore the open minded and unprotected Jedi kind of defies logic. Sure, you could argue that in just normal space far from the presence of the warp, the jedi would be safe, however the instant an imperium Battle Barge rips open a warp hole near a battle, all the jedi would be incapacitated untill the hole was closed. and really for some that could be all the time needed for a warp god to corrupt several of the jedi.

now id like to add that im a big fan of 40K. but i seriously dont think that a war between the Empire and the Imperium would be the walk in the park some think it would be. as has been said before the Empire enjoys the ability to mass produce armys, they have vast fleets to be used for space controll, but most telling of all they have an intact R&D ability. the guys that designed and built the death star didnt do it because they found the plans in some long forgotten 'template' discovered by accident someplace. the throguth it up all by themselves and more importiant in less than the time it took from a new hope to return of the Jedi they IMPROVED the plan's by a wide margin. so i say too you that what ever super duper gun your so rpoud of the 40K boys having, the empire would have them too in very short order and the difference would be that while the 40K boys are only able to give their very best troops their very best weapons, the trillions of clone troopers rolling off the empires production lines would be armed with the very best the 40k boys could bost. even the issue of genetics wouldnt be much of an issue, im certian the Empires R&D guys could design a clone trooper that was 15 feet tall with 8 lungs and could breath fire. and then mass produce them by the billions, arm them with copys of the best weapons that the IMperium has to offer, after they have been improved uppon by the Empires INTACT tech base and you better hope the 40K boys can win quick because if the war goes on long enough to bring that R&D into the picture its lights out and game over for 40K.

you better hope that the God emperor turns into some kind of living god for real because nothing else would save them.

ive no doubt if you plunk down a clone army as seen in the movies on a planet full of Imperium troops that the Imperium would go through them like shit through a goose ....... at the start. but once the Empire starts to play catch-up and when they DO catch-up they would roll over the imperium like nothing. when the empire starts cloning Space marines by the billions and start equiping them with upgraded copys of the best 40k weapons, couple that with their fleet advantages no one can really argue that the empire wouldnt win.

it would be near impossible to backengineer imperium weapons because for the empire. the empire would need to find specific resources and elements then mine them in a large enough quantity to produce such weapons. transport them to a production facility then transport them to respective combat groups. getting this in full force could take 5 to 50 years depending on which weapon you are trying to replicate.

on the other hand, the imperium can easily reproduce any of the Empire weapons or vehicals. the foundries and forges left behind from the Dark Age of Technology are quiet effectively 'copy machines' on an industrial level. if an example is provided for the machine, it can start producing identical copies of that item in massive quantites not requiring resources or much logistics out side getting the weapons to the front.

further more, they can't play 'catch up' on the genetic diffrence between the space marine and the clone trooper. the empire can not massively alter the genetics of their soldiers, the only take prime examples, sift out the bad and empower the good. if they could of altered the genetics of their clone troopers, they could of effectively made an army of jedi from the begining which already display great reflexes above normal strength and near super human dexterity.


the massive empire fleets are nothing compared to the fleets of the imperium...
a sector fleet of the Galatic empire would consist of about 24 capital ships (imperial star destroyer class 750m - 1 km) and being generious, they would have 1 Super star destroyer although only a handful of them exist (1.6+ km) and about 6 escort squadrons (1 squadron is 350 assorted fighters, bombers, and support ships) with a possible attachment of another support fleet (3 capital ships, and 1 support squadron)

a Sub-sector fleet of the Imperium of man consists of no less than 2 battle ships (8km) 24 cruisers (3-6 km) and 6 escort squadrons (1 squadron is 1000-2000 fighters, bombers, support ships)


the ony real advantage the empire fleet would have over the imperium fleet is logistics. having FTL drives, a sector fleet of the empire could respond to a distress in a few days where as it will take several weeks and months for the imperium to show up with their fleet.



however, you are wrong on one aspect.
if they plop down a clone trooper invasion force planet side of an imperial hive world facing the Imperial guard/PDF, that planet would be owned the empire in short order. the standard storm trooper can be compared to 'Karskin' squads... and the massive IG ranks of conscripts would be nothing more than fodder. (as they are in the tabletop) only when the full might of the Imperium comes to bear with full regiments of Imperium Strom troopers, massive fleet, and detachments of guards messured in the billions supported by basalisks and bane blades would they start to crush the empire.




but the intresting thing is that this argument is only Imperium (Segmentum command) against Empire. you throw them against Space marines, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, or eldar... the empire will be crushed in short order and would take losses on an epic scale to the point that they could not recover from.

sure, RnD could help mitigate the damage, but it is hard to learn from your losses when no one comes back to tell you how you lost...

 

[Pyro Paul]

Of course, if the reverse is applied, 40K ships would not be able to travel FTL either, and nor is it logical to apply both rules at once.

acctually, wouldn't that be incorrect?
the onlything which acctually denies WH40k FTL travel is the warp. it has been described that most all of the engines on the battle barges and heavy cruisers can attain Light speed travel under their own power, but simply don't because it is physically impossible.

but in the SW universe, where the warp does not restrict it, then wouldn't these ships now be capable of attaining FTL speeds?

 

[Wargamer]

Of course, if the reverse is applied, 40K ships would not be able to travel FTL either, and nor is it logical to apply both rules at once.

acctually, wouldn't that be incorrect?
the onlything which acctually denies WH40k FTL travel is the warp. it has been described that most all of the engines on the battle barges and heavy cruisers can attain Light speed travel under their own power, but simply don't because it is physically impossible.

but in the SW universe, where the warp does not restrict it, then wouldn't these ships now be capable of attaining FTL speeds?

The only reason 40K ships do not travel at the Speed of Light is that the laws of physics throw a tantrum.

It is made clear that 40K ships are subject to real-world physics - they have to take a very long time making course corrections and so on because otherwise they'd rip themselves apart. Consider the following; the speed of light is a constant in void of 300 million metres per second (rounded up for simplicity). That's in the region of eleven-point-one million miles per hour.

The phrase "bat-shit-crazy" doesn't come close to describing how fast that is.

Now, imagine what happens when you slam on the brakes - the front of your ship, where the braking engines are, is now moving at nine million miles per hour. However, the back is still doing eleven million. Splat.

40K ships are in the region of 5km long, and so you need all 5km of ship to be going at the same speed. That's the reason 2/3rds of an Imperial Navy vessel consists of the Engine Room.

Nobody bothered to think of that in Star Wars - the ships are magically immune to the laws of physics. However, the sheer strain a vessel like the Super-Star Destroyer would be under every time she turns means that by rights it should behave exactly as an Imperial Navy ship does (worse, in fact, since she's bigger). The Death Star would produce a gravity well significant enough to piss up the tides of any planet it flew passed, but that seems to be ignored as well.


This is the first point - I do not believe Star Wars ignores these factors because every ship is conveniently wrapped in a Force Field, or built of Indestructotanium. I believe it ignores these factors because nobody gave a crap.

Well, if 40K has to obey them, then so does Star Wars... and if Star Wars can ignore them, so can 40K.

In other words, the moment you let 40K vessels go into the Star Wars universe, they can slam those 4km long Fusion Core Star Drives into overload and Boom! The Imperial Navy is now capable of Speed-Of-Light travel. Galactic Empire, thou art fucked.

 

[Wargamer]

but the intresting thing is that this argument is only Imperium (Segmentum command) against Empire. you throw them against Space marines, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, or eldar... the empire will be crushed in short order and would take losses on an epic scale to the point that they could not recover from.

sure, RnD could help mitigate the damage, but it is hard to learn from your losses when no one comes back to tell you how you lost...

That is a very good point.

Take the Eldar - how does the Empire fight a race that knows what's going to happen before they do? Even if we let them keep their own FTL ability to "spawn-rape" a system, the Eldar would know in advance it was coming and have their own fleet camped ready to blow the shit out of the Empire.

Forget Jedi Mind Tricks, a Psyker could make a Puppet out of a Galactic Empire officer, and make him send units on suicide missions, or suck secrets right out of his brain.

Then there's Chaos. Oh lord, what fun. Even Master Yoda is going to have to go and find a new pair of underpants when a Bloodthirster kicks down the walls of reality. Unleash Chaos Daemons upon the Empire, and they are dead!