I think its one of those things where story isn't supposed to be part of the appeal. I like the lore, though.
Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?
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I actually did my main research, I looked through the wiki's, talked to friends and played the game; I've only not read the books.Akratus said:
And no, it does go too far, it goes above and beyond. Trying to justify its attitude due to its size is ridiculous.
Star Wars is just as big and it never feels the need to go into angst and dark ville.
How does it go above and beyond the call of fucked? Well how about how the entire universe is ALL WAR ALL THE TIME WITH NO PEACE.
Or how there are no good factions besides the Tau (Which isn't the same as moral greyness by the way)
Or how the way to travel faster than light is a living nightmare
or how if your not a space marine your fucked.
I'm willing to listen to defenses for Warhammer, but don't try and say that it doesn't go over the top.
I'm sorry, but this sounds awfully like you are speaking from position of authority, and people in the thread are here to please your sensibilities. Just to be clear, the former and the latter are false assumptions.Saviordd1 said:
There's a lot of book recommendations been offered here, pick one or a few up and read them. Like Eisenhorn Omnibus. If you GENUINELY wonder why universe has appeal, put an effort into it and do the work required to find the answer, if not, your interest in the question is just not there. Reading will not guarantee that you'll love the setting, but it will explain why people love it.
We are all snowflakes.
Arguments that hold up to scrutiny? For the matters of taste? Oh pray tell, defend your choice of breakfast/favourite colour/brand of underwear in a manner that it'll be an unassailable monolith of an argument.LifeCharacter said:
Question was asked, and people gave their answer. That, somehow, does not seem to satisfy, for you see, people who have bothered to respond now have to DEFEND their tastes against scrutiny?! An the judges of worthiness are, I presume, you and OP?
I shan't beg the question. Matters of preference and taste are not objective, but purely subjective. Expecting them to hold up to scrutiny like a Euclid's proposition is undiluted nonsense.
Lastly, reading of books on ANY subject is necessary to form any legitimately informed opinion on said subject. If you want to know merely what people think, that was already answered, if you are still unsatisfied and want to know more, then start reading. If you think the setting is too silly to even bother learning anything about it... Well you just don't care to begin with and wasting everyone's time.
It was not my intention to make a scathing comment initially, but if my arguments are attacked, I will defend them.
As an aside I find the star wars universe much more depressing then 40k.
Yeh im saying that with a straight face.
The more i got into star wars lore the more i started to resent what seems like an eternal struggle between light and dark side who in turn empower individuals with their blessing to enact the struggle.
Star wars history is basically an eternal tug of war with no ending in sight, free will is an illusion for its the force that guides everything.
By contrast 40k... Its the struggle of humanity against the very worst the universe can throw, and for all the grim darkness there is always an undercurrent of hope, a message of endurance in the face of adversity. Although the imperium might be a fascist big brother empire, there is no light or dark side pulling the strings, our fate is what we make.
Yeh im saying that with a straight face.
The more i got into star wars lore the more i started to resent what seems like an eternal struggle between light and dark side who in turn empower individuals with their blessing to enact the struggle.
Star wars history is basically an eternal tug of war with no ending in sight, free will is an illusion for its the force that guides everything.
By contrast 40k... Its the struggle of humanity against the very worst the universe can throw, and for all the grim darkness there is always an undercurrent of hope, a message of endurance in the face of adversity. Although the imperium might be a fascist big brother empire, there is no light or dark side pulling the strings, our fate is what we make.
Warhammer captures a lot of what I liked about the Dune-universe (at least the earleir books) with its technologically advanced yet fuedal society. The Over the top dark atmosphere of the setting is something interesting that while not necessarily unique to the setting, is not altogether common, esp to the degree demonstrated in WH 40k. It's a big universe with all of the demons, robots, space marines etc going on, so there's a lot of stuff to like.
That being said, there are some things I don't like- the writers don't seem to have a firm grasp of their own content, and while 40k has never been completely original (look at all of the things borrowed from other settings), things have steadily become less and less so. The 'dark' themes of the setting have become somethign of a crutch sometimes, with the theme becoming a bit over-emphasized, which becoems increasingly silly in regards to how the Human Empire is *in theory* threatened from all angles by a myriad of hostile races, *in practice* they are the single most powerful faction in the setting, whose super soldiers are better than every other faction's super soldiers, and who has the most resources and best technology available to them, despite being the faction that is supposedly crumbling from stagnation and utilizes WWI-equivalent tanks. The overly human-centric themes of the setting are extremely irritating, and absolutely reek of fan-favoritism. Why are xeno-codicies so hesitant to give a xeno win against the space marines at anything more than a phyrric victory? There is also the more and more pronounced trend among the model-makers of making models that look more and more like something that GI JOE would be afraid to be near-particularly glaring with many of the dual kits.
In short, it's an expansive universe with a unique feel to it, but GW really needs to get over its love of the Imeprials and Space marines and bring them down to earth a bit-the setting is way too human-centric. Possibly have something shake up their position at the top of the heap like have Cadia fall to the hordes of chaos, or have the empire fragment into warring city states or something. Also, they need more nuanced writers, and instead of releasing more and more horrible models, bring down the prices and provide better models (preferably in actual 28 mm instead of the 'heroic' scale) and ditch finecast.
That being said, there are some things I don't like- the writers don't seem to have a firm grasp of their own content, and while 40k has never been completely original (look at all of the things borrowed from other settings), things have steadily become less and less so. The 'dark' themes of the setting have become somethign of a crutch sometimes, with the theme becoming a bit over-emphasized, which becoems increasingly silly in regards to how the Human Empire is *in theory* threatened from all angles by a myriad of hostile races, *in practice* they are the single most powerful faction in the setting, whose super soldiers are better than every other faction's super soldiers, and who has the most resources and best technology available to them, despite being the faction that is supposedly crumbling from stagnation and utilizes WWI-equivalent tanks. The overly human-centric themes of the setting are extremely irritating, and absolutely reek of fan-favoritism. Why are xeno-codicies so hesitant to give a xeno win against the space marines at anything more than a phyrric victory? There is also the more and more pronounced trend among the model-makers of making models that look more and more like something that GI JOE would be afraid to be near-particularly glaring with many of the dual kits.
In short, it's an expansive universe with a unique feel to it, but GW really needs to get over its love of the Imeprials and Space marines and bring them down to earth a bit-the setting is way too human-centric. Possibly have something shake up their position at the top of the heap like have Cadia fall to the hordes of chaos, or have the empire fragment into warring city states or something. Also, they need more nuanced writers, and instead of releasing more and more horrible models, bring down the prices and provide better models (preferably in actual 28 mm instead of the 'heroic' scale) and ditch finecast.
Nah, the humans need their position "At the top", because in this universe, all that really means is they have the most to lose.Oroboros said:
However, they should emphasize the other races' gains and losses more - For example, the Tyrannids are portrayed as an unknowable, malevolent, and boring force, just as the Necrons were before the new fluff. But there's just enough subtext to indicate that the Tyrannids are dealing with demons of their own - Being consumed and driven to a frenzy by their own insatiable hunger, on the run from either starvation or something more terrifying than themselves, and have landed in the roughest, toughest, meanest and most hostile galaxy to their kind. And, they can be competing with other Hive Fleets for the resources they can wrest from the current inhabitants.
So, I take it you've never heard of this "Anakin" character?Saviordd1 said:
On the whole, outside of the Death Star, the galaxy in Star Wars may be comparable in size, but the density is so much lower. Coruscant is the norm for sub-sector capitals in 40k. There are literally thousands of planets just like it scattered throughout 40k's galaxy. Star Wars never goes to the kind of scale where burning entire solar systems is acceptable standard operating procedure. Star Wars never really gets into the idea that sacrificing millions of people to hold a solar system is not just an acceptable loss, but an admirable conservation of resources.
Also, 40k isn't really, well, angsty. Sure there's more skulls on display than a decade of heavy metal magazine covers, but it isn't usually angsty. No one's going out there and whining about how they never got to know their parents because they were pulled into the scholla so young, or how their life sucks because they've been enslaved by Dark Eldar. And we certainly don't have any whiny teenage psykers going on rampages slaughtering xenos because they offed his estranged mother he hasn't thought of in over a decade. Though there are some whiny teenage psykers out there, I suspect.
40k is bigger, but it's not bigger on a sense of feet or miles or lightyears, it's bigger in the sense of scale. The wonders Star Wars holds up as unique and special are everyday life in 40k.
40k is dark. No, wait, it is DARK, but it's not particularly angsty. Certainly not to the extent that Anakin and even Luke are. There is a lot of singularly British fatalism inherent in the setting, but that's a completely different animal from angst.
EDIT: Somehow I missed this part:
Yeah, that's actually kinda the point. 40k is, as a setting, a parody. It's all so far over the top, all you can do is laugh at the ridiculousness. I actually had a friend from Texas who used to be honestly very disturbed by the setting because of the kind of religious fanaticism the Imperium requires of it's citizens. It's over the top, but it was an impulse he recognized from personal experience.Saviordd1 said:
It's surprisingly subversive towards a lot of the philosophies it wears on it's sleeve. Particularly when you start looking at exactly what the Imperium propaganda says. It's the best, and worst of us dialed to 12 or 13. And it's easy to look at it and say, "lol, look at how stupid that is," but, the point is that a lot of it is stupid and self destructive.
It takes the "don't think for yourself, let God do that for you" idea, and dials it out so far that it's designed to make you stop and think. The same with violence, and warfare. I mean, it's kinda funny to point at it and say this is an anti-war setting, but it kinda is, much in the same way Gears of War or Far Cry 2 are. Always sitting there, regarding your behavior disinterestedly, silently asking you, "what the hell are you doing?" But, never actually accusing you of anything. I could be wrong, but take it for what it's worth, and think on it a bit.
Yup. And there's a lot of people saying what in the setting appeals to them. You've got people trying to say this is why the setting is "the best" for this reason or that, but ulimately, yes, it's a thread about saying, "yeah, this is cool because X".LifeCharacter said:
Thing is, a lot of the time X = The Books. It's not saying you need to read them to understand the setting, it's saying, "hey, the Ciaphas Cain books are worth reading." They'll give you an introduction to the series if you want to go deeper, but they're pretty entertaining in their own right.
Unlike, say, Star Wars, or Star Trek, or Gears of War, or Halo, the 40k books, are a legitimate end. There are a fair number of people in this thread who aren't fans of the tabletop game or Relic, but are fans of Black Library. So, when they say "oh, read this book," it's because they believe the book is worth reading... usually, not because they think you need to read it to understand the setting so you can actually play the games.
Yeah, the closest actually real thing to the Tau would be Imperialistic Japan with elements from a few other societies mixed in. If anything in the 40k is communist then it would be the Imperium, well parts of it anyway as there is a lot of fascism there as well.
Yeah, when yer Mer'kin, commies is evlulz!JJMUG said:
You know, the same way "communist" is automatically a pejorative? Though, feudal Japan is a much better metaphor for the Tau, only with the technological advancement that Japanese pop culture tends to envision. Philosophically they seem to be kinda Daoist, which I guess makes sense given their name...
Ah, I'm glad I can just nod and agree with someone!Scow2 said:
The reason I love 40k's universe is how relentlessly stupid it is. It started out as essentially a parody, mocking both itself and the sci-fi of the time. The way its grown since is nothing short of stupendous. If there's a science fiction concept that exists, Warhammer 40,000 has it. It takes cues from everything and mixes it up into a gloriously, unprecedentedly dumb candy-coated lore, where space faeries and football jock orcs share both the same universe and the same sentences... it's ridiculous! Absolutely mental, and that's exactly why it's so appealing to me. It is basically a hodge podge of campy, crazy, stupid and bizarre, and it's utterly fascinating for it.
Combine that with occasionally genuinely good writing, allegories to everything we have on Earth from homosexuality to sadomasochism, really unique creatures (the idea that the Orks are a kind of fungus? Inspired!), good sense of self-aware humour, and really great amoral factions that let people choose their team, essentially, and still find them as the "good guys"... its just really diverse and wide and bombastic and bright and colourful and yet grimdark at the same time. I understand why it turns people off, but you must understand also how that sort of craziness glues people in.
Okaaay... So you demonstrated specifically why YOU didn't like Twilight. How would have any bearing on anything other than you?LifeCharacter said:
The outcome: You feel better about yourself because of how nicely polished your critique was, and how handsome your ego looks in it's reflection, and the Twilight fan gone watching Breaking Dawn for the n-th time with his/her fan compadres.
If one could reason with people about the value of Twilight books, there'd be no Twilight fans anywhere. As far as I can tell that's a perfect example of why you can't argue taste objectively.
Furthermore:
This statement is made out of lots of straw, here's why:LifeCharacter said:
"OP's appeal: "Tell me why you like 40k, for I don't understand the appeal, for it seems "stupid" (word used by OP).
Posters: plethora of reasons why they enjoy it.
OP's response: These reasons are poor. <goes on to demonstrate his weak understanding of the lore by listing few reasons, which he admits are taken from casual conversations and wiki browsing> Now, you need to justify your reasons for liking 40k before me."
Calling that a legitimate discussion is absurd. We need to justify our tastes? Why? And if we do don't? Our tastes are somehow invalided in the eyes of the world? And if they are somehow invalidated, next step is, I imagine, you showing us the "proper" things to like, with legitimate qualities, that are immune to any criticism? How benevolent.
Also, I'd love to have discussion with someone about, say, Leibniz's differential calculus and it's effect on his philosophical worldview. If my interlocutor claims that my understanding of Leibniz is lacking, that he never actually read anything written by the guy, yet he still wants to argue, I will end the conversation right there. Why? At best, he'd be an ignoramus, at worst, a sophist.
I am amused by your certainty in your abilities to defend your favourite colour in the manner that would make it impervious to scrutiny. I'll let people reading this gauge themselves how likely it is to be true.
I don't remember every single response in this topic, but generally response was along the lines: "I like 40k because x,y,z appeals to me." NOT "40k is great universe because clearly x,y,z coalesce into an immortal edifice of fiction for all time."
First cannot be refuted, for it is supported by subjective reasoning, and makes only a subjective claim. If you don't see how that's irrefutable, refer to dictionary definition of the word "subjective."
Second can be refuted.
You cannot prove to others that x,y,z aren't actually appealing to THEM. If your argument is that x,y,z don't appeal to YOU... well I don't think anyone would contest that, for it has nothing to do with anything but you.
I should point out that the question in the opening post was phrased to fish for responses of the first kind. The inherent fallacy here is that first kind of response can be debunked the same way as the second kind.
Actually, while I did not write that previously, but that's roughly what I'd say now: yes, it is potentially worthless(with a caveat below). Here's why:
Playing the game requires no knowledge of the universe. None. Different kind of fun to be had there. So you could play the game for years and know nothing beyond the names of the races, units and gear.
I'm not sure what "examining the universe" means other than reading. Looking at pictures? If so, that is not entirely worthless, as can get a vague sense and mood of the setting (I'm a proponent of visual learning myself).
Next, "books do not change the universe or ...[it's] nature" - that's... false. Just stunningly outright 100% falsity. Books is the only thing that keeps the universe together. Books are the only major thing that developed this universe. Without books, the only thing left is a strange collection of miniatures and terrain.
If your assumption is that the game is what drives the universe, I will smile and say merely: "it does not." (that has been explained previously)