Warp Drive Confirmed? EMDrive Warp Field Works In A Vacuum

[Cowabungaa]

If they actually get replication and publish a proper paper, then I will believe it.

How is the paper they published not proper? It's a pretty classic, standard format description of an experiment. And do remember that this paper is already a replication of a Chinese experiment that also published a paper. I'm reading it right now, though sadly it's mostly way too technical for me. Of course all of this is in early stages, but you can't deny that interesting work is being described here.

I get being skeptical, though I myself just enjoy being optimistic too much, but give them some credit here. They did their work alright. Is the work finished? Good lord no it has barely begun, but that in part makes it so tantalizing if you ask me. Isn't it exciting to see the research plans they're drawing up? Isn't it cool to see that this warranted both intensive research by Chinese scientists, then see it get replicated by NASA who is then planning to bring this to even more research centers? That's pretty freakin' awesome if you ask me. I really do miss the pioneering, enterprising and optimistic attitude we used to have about scientific progress. It made everything feel so more alive.

As for the journalism, of course scientific journalism has a lot of problems. It actually saddens me that the paper is referred to so little in the news outlets that report about this. Hell, the actual proper information and plans are a lot more awesome and exciting than the sensationalist articles about it, and I ain't even into physics all that much. Yet all we see are silly comparisons to Star Trek and whatnot.

 

[Baresark]

Last time I read a sci fi novel where technology was used that was not entirely understood, it was created by aliens and ultimately used as a weapon to try and wipe out the whole human race. I'm going to remain optimistic about this though.

I could be completely wrong here, but are you talking about the Lost Fleet? I only asked because I just got done reading that series and something like that happens there.

OT: Well...hot damn. This is interesting.

You are 100% right on that one. I'm blown away a bit by you guessing right as well. I posted that and was like, "that has to be like 30% of sci fi novels". Did you also read the second part of the series, Beyond the Frontier?

 

[Erttheking]

Last time I read a sci fi novel where technology was used that was not entirely understood, it was created by aliens and ultimately used as a weapon to try and wipe out the whole human race. I'm going to remain optimistic about this though.

I could be completely wrong here, but are you talking about the Lost Fleet? I only asked because I just got done reading that series and something like that happens there.

OT: Well...hot damn. This is interesting.

You are 100% right on that one. I'm blown away a bit by you guessing right as well. I posted that and was like, "that has to be like 30% of sci fi novels". Did you also read the second part of the series, Beyond the Frontier?

Not yet, though I plan on getting them as soon as I can.

 

[Fanghawk]

Just stop. This is not a warp drive. This is a warp field being created God knows how inside the device. This is literally worlds apart from intentionally generating a large, stable warp field around a space ship, and controlling that field to create FTL travel. As far apart as the discovery of fire and the creation of a jet engine.

snip

I agree. That's why I said so in the post.

The EMDrive seems to be generating a warp field - which might lead to a drive one day - but more research is needed before we can say that for sure. I've written two articles about this now, and have been clear about the implications and the immense need for peer review in both.

So what's the problem?

 

[Mikael Murstam]

The Author is confused. They have not done the interferometer test in vacuum yet. They have tested the EM drive in vacuum. We are still waiting for the result of the interferometer test in vacuum.

 

[Shinkicker444]

Now to piss everybody hoping that this tech will improve as fast as airplane tech did, NASA's budget just got cut by 40%.

NASA doesn't need to build the fuckin thing.

I'm sure any of the half a dozen companies looking to get into the space business would love to start developing this stuff, not to mention the satellite tv companies and the GPS companies. Let them do the leg work, then NASA can focus on sending someone to Mars... and back!

*waits for a Petroleum company to buy the patent/whatever and burry it due to being the slightest threat to their profits.*

 

[Recusant]

First of all, it generates thrust in violation of the law of conservation of momentum.

That's a bit presumptuous. I remember this site reporting that particles were going faster than the speed of light at CERN some time ago. I was hoping not to see that again.

Presumptuous? Not at all. CERN waited months trying to explain the apparent problem themselves; they couldn't. The "Laws of Physics" are not the immutable principles that govern the universe; they are a human attempt to map said principles. Consider Galileo. He ran into opposition because if the Earth orbited the sun, stars would have noticeable parallax shift. They didn't. The evidence plainly supported a geocentric theory of astronomy. Had Galileo had access to nineteenth-century equipment, he could've shown the parallax shift, but he didn't. He ended up being correct- but the evidence didn't support him.

Granted, the sentence probably should've said "apparently generates thrust in violation...", but that's beside the point. The evidence indicates that many important accepted theories aren't completely correct. What about that is not worth reporting?

That's all fine and dandy, but in 100% of the cases in these sort of stories so far whenever someone talks about a law being broken it's not the case and it's a measurement error. That was the case with CERN, they even said so in the first publication of the results. Conveniently ignored by websites such as these. The 'evidence', as you call it, indicates nothing until it has been correctly interpreted.

I understand this isn't a scientific website so I'm willing to cut them some slack but some journalistic standards should be upheld in my opinion. The word 'apparently' is not besides the point, it is exactly the point. It would still be a sensationalist piece, but at least it wouldn't make claims it cannot support.

Oh, come now- if evidence "means nothing until it has been correctly interpreted", then science is, by definition, a waste of time. The very nature of empiricism is making conclusions derived from experimental evidence. If the evidence doesn't matter unless the interpretation is correct, and the only way to know it's correct is by examining the evidence, then the whole enterprise is self-defining- and self-defeating. Even hindsight can't help you if the future changes its opinion.

These laws were not handed down on stone tablets; they were derived from interpreting experimental data. New ages, new advances, and new experiments have refined them. Humor me a moment and grab yourself a big bowl. Toss in some cornstarch, then add water. Mix it together- by hand. Notice how it violates Newton's Third Law of Motion by not having an equal-but-opposite reaction when you hit it? Now, kindly explain to me (after washing your hands) how the previous sentences was in any way "sensationalist" or how "it's a measurement error". Newton's theories were not entirely correct; they have been updated and relegated to the realm of "true, with some exceptions". We may be seeing something similar happen with astrophysics. These laws are derived from experimental observation. Observation of this experiment shows a violation of the law of conservation of energy. That's the point.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Oh, come now- if evidence "means nothing until it has been correctly interpreted", then science is, by definition, a waste of time. The very nature of empiricism is making conclusions derived from experimental evidence. If the evidence doesn't matter unless the interpretation is correct, and the only way to know it's correct is by examining the evidence, then the whole enterprise is self-defining- and self-defeating. Even hindsight can't help you if the future changes its opinion.

Evidence does matter, BUT SO DOES A PROPER CONTROL!

I mean, it's a datapoint if I mistime a car going from Copenhagen to Oslo, in such a fashion that later calculations show my car (a Renault Megane Mk I CDi 1.9) as haven gone 320km/h. Now that doesn't mean that my Renault Megane just went 320km/h. It means that I (like CERN tracking that "superluminal" particle), have made a measurement error.

 

[RicoADF]

NASA doesn't need to build the fuckin thing.

I'm sure any of the half a dozen companies looking to get into the space business would love to start developing this stuff, not to mention the satellite tv companies and the GPS companies. Let them do the leg work, then NASA can focus on sending someone to Mars... and back!

Or better yet the ESA, or some other professional space agency.

The last thing the world needs is for the private sector to become owners of the means to quickly and efficiently travel our solar system, let alone beyond it. Aside from the obvious fact that government investment in space travel is the reason anyone actually bothered with space travel and private companies are only now catching up to NASA from a few decades ago, nothing good has ever come from letting the private sector handle everything. The so called free market is largely responsible for most of the problems we have in this world such as the horrors of the American healthcare system, global warming, the slow death of the oceans, and plenty of other major threats to human welfare.

NASA absolutely needs to be involved in this as organizations who are able to engage in pure research and exploration without concern for generating a direct profit from their efforts serve a very valuable function. Namely trying to stop us all from killing our species so we can have a new iPhone.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that sees American industry as the worst possible outcome.

OT: I wish people would stop calling this thing a warp drive, everything I've read even in the articles that the Escapist references makes it sound more like an impulse drive. Which is frankly still a massive leap forward and worthy of a few rounds of drink.

 

[Strazdas]

i remmeber first time this surfaced years ago, i thought it was a hoax. yet every experiment afterwards confirms it being real and now it seems like it defies physics.

This is awesome and horrifying at once. Looks like we got a massive breakthrough that we can actually witness.

I now know how old people feel facing tech they cannot understand.... And its scary.

NASA doesn't need to build the fuckin thing.

I'm sure any of the half a dozen companies looking to get into the space business would love to start developing this stuff, not to mention the satellite tv companies and the GPS companies. Let them do the leg work, then NASA can focus on sending someone to Mars... and back!

Ah, yes, greedy people that are known to fuck things up for general populace certainly wont try to milk the populace for this. they are completely altruistic and will do this for the good of humanity, right?

That's a bit presumptuous. I remember this site reporting that particles were going faster than the speed of light at CERN some time ago. I was hoping not to see that again.

To be fair, every site reported that faster than light particles because that was the date CERN gave them. They later (a week later) issued a correction that they were timing it wrong and it wasnt so, but for that 1 week whole world was tounting faster than light particles. So its not like this site is exceptional in this case.

Reminds me of when we first managed to create lasers. In the early days, as far as science was concerned, lasers were all just quantum magic. That they worked was clear, how exactly they worked was another matter. Maybe it'll be the same with this thing.

Many discoveries were unexplained at first. Electricity, radiation, lasers, take your pick. Give it a few decades and we might know why and how this works.

 

[Pyrian]

Call me back when they can scale it up. Even if it really is a new quantum effect... Those don't always scale so well.

Reminds me of when we first managed to create lasers. In the early days, as far as science was concerned, lasers were all just quantum magic. That they worked was clear, how exactly they worked was another matter. Maybe it'll be the same with this thing.

Many discoveries were unexplained at first. Electricity, radiation, lasers, take your pick. Give it a few decades and we might know why and how this works.

Hmm. Many things are discovered before they're explained, of course. The underlying physics of lasers, however, were described decades before anybody managed to actually build one, and insofar as it might have seemed like quantum magic, well, everything quantum seemed like magic, but not because it wasn't well described.

 

[alj]

I would hold any judgement until this is published in a proper peer reviewed journal with lots and lots of data.

Whenever something is discovered that "defies the laws of physics" its usually not that it is defying the laws of physics but that we don't fully understand whats going on yet.

Science journalism always bigs stuff up way more than it is, you tell a journalist you can destroy cancer cells in the lab and they will plaster "cure for cancer found"all over the newspapers.

 

[Damien Granz]

Ugh, I wish people would stop equating "NASA has skeptically looked at this" to "NASA has endorsed this and it'll be on shelves in time for Christmas".

The press has gone apeshit because somebody with a degree glanced at it, which would be like if Gordon Ramsey looked at his shoe in disgust after stepping in dog crap, food critics everywhere declaring dog crap to be the new food craze and putting it in every menu.

The thing is that nowhere in this device's storied history has it 'produced' a thrust larger than the margin of error for whatever machine is looking into it, or that can't be quickly identified at some other observation error.

It's like looking at one of those optical illusions that make you think the pattern is moving and declaring it an engine.

What's funny is this 'engine' moves things in the same way as a bug in Deep Sea moves things.

 

[Ukomba]

Every time humanity has had a leap forward in technology, we have had scores of Nay-sayers... nay-saying, that it would be the death of us all. I blame this technologies extremely complicated nature as to why the Negative Nancie's haven't crawled out of their caves to shout at the sky.

I have not seen one person saying this will kill anything. What are you going on about?

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I have not seen one person saying this will kill anything. What are you going on about?

When the steam train was first invented, people said the speed it traveled would be lethal.
When they tested the first atomic weapon, they said it would ignite the earth's atmosphere.
When they turned on the LHC, they said the earth would be consumed by a black hole.

My point was; New technology will scare people who don't understand it. And that fear will cause them to assume the worst outcome possible every single time.

 

[Spartan448]

More importantly, when you fire lasers through its resonance chamber those beams appear to move faster than light.

The possibility of a warp drive is cool and all, but this part is seriously concerning me. Firing lasers through resonance chambers has a tendency to not work out well for Earth.

 

[Ukomba]

I have not seen one person saying this will kill anything. What are you going on about?

When the steam train was first invented, people said the speed it traveled would be lethal.
When they tested the first atomic weapon, they said it would ignite the earth's atmosphere.
When they turned on the LHC, they said the earth would be consumed by a black hole.

My point was; New technology will scare people who don't understand it. And that fear will cause them to assume the worst outcome possible every single time.

Train - Raising Steam is a good book.
Atomic Bomb - The 'They' in this case being the scientists working on it since no one in the general public knew about the bomb until after it was tested and thus already knew it wouldn't ignite the atmosphere.
LHC - Well, that is what they're trying to make, and even though the theory predicting that microscopic black holes decay rapidly seems sound, the fear is that the theory is wrong.

I understood your point, I just don't see how you're connecting it to the news of the EMDrive. I haven't seen any fear or worst outcome assumptions about it. I've seen a lot of Skepticism, but no 'sky is falling' comments, so it seemed out of place.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I understood your point, I just don't see how you're connecting it to the news of the EMDrive. I haven't seen any fear or worst outcome assumptions about it. I've seen a lot of Skepticism, but no 'sky is falling' comments, so it seemed out of place.

Not yet anyway, but it will happen. Once they have a useable prototype, then the crazies will come out of the woodwork. Some people fear progress and change.

 

[Ukomba]

I understood your point, I just don't see how you're connecting it to the news of the EMDrive. I haven't seen any fear or worst outcome assumptions about it. I've seen a lot of Skepticism, but no 'sky is falling' comments, so it seemed out of place.

Not yet anyway, but it will happen. Once they have a useable prototype, then the crazies will come out of the woodwork. Some people fear progress and change.

Star Trek already started it. Supposedly warp fields cause catastrophic subspace damage, or something.

 

[Vigormortis]

More importantly, when you fire lasers through its resonance chamber those beams appear to move faster than light.

The possibility of a warp drive is cool and all, but this part is seriously concerning me. Firing lasers through resonance chambers has a tendency to not work out well for Earth.

As long as the scientists involved steer clear of orange-colored suits, and they keep crystal-holding dolly carts out of the testing areas, I think we'll be okay...