Warren Spector: Games Focus Too Much on Combat and Graphics

[bojac6]

-snip-

Deus Ex is a credit to Spector, no doubt. I simply found it agitating that Spector seems to be lashing out on the entire industry after getting panned for a pretty mediocre game. Acting like no one in the industry is trying to push conversation to realistic medium is ignorant - because so many people are trying.

And as I said above, I *agree* the combat shouldnt equal gameplay in every regard. My post was more a comment on Spectors attitude lately than the industry as a whole.

Although I should mention that graphics shouldnt be pigeon holed as simply bigger and badder pixels. Mario Kart is gorgeous, and executed with precision. No wonder you find it more entertaining than Gran Turismo(Although lets be honest, you might just be running purely on personal preference there). Graphics will always be a staple in the immersive experience of videogames, not the be all to end all, but an important part. Like c'mon, I kinda liked that on top of all the cool things Mass Effect 2 was offering, it was prettier to boot.

Yeah, I have to agree that after Epic Mickey, these comments seem like taking the offensive to cover up his failure. But, to Spector's credit, Epic Mickey really seems like a game that started out with a few brilliant concepts and ideas (look at some early previews for it) that got squashed by the committee of managers who were afraid to take risks. In this case, Disney trying to protect the Mickey Mouse image. I haven't played it much (and don't intend on playing it any more), but it has that feel to it. On the other hand, if that were entirely true, given what I know about Spector, he would have told off Disney and quit the project.

Actually, now that you've clarified a bit, I think I agree with you on most points, but I'm going to keep writing about why I agree because I like big blocks of text.

And finally, I agree entirely with your statement "I kinda liked that on top of all the cool things Mass Effect 2 was offering, it was prettier to boot." But there's a key qualifier in there "On top of all the cool things." I have no problem with better graphics, I don't think graphics should be ignored, but I think they should be one of the least important things when it comes to game design. The vast majority of processor power and resources should go to other gameplay elements. I point to Minecraft and Mount & Blade as examples of games where the AI eats up the most resources. Minecraft is mostly about generating the world itself, not about making it look pretty. Mount & Blade has dozens of AI controlled armies working for themselves; not working against you, like in most other games, but working for their own betterment. So armies meet and are destroyed in events that you had no part of, but this has huge ramifications on the rest of the world. This makes things incredibly interesting. Neither of these games would be possible if the focus was on great graphics and then the other elements.

So I won't say that a game is bad because it has great graphics. But I would say that the designers had screwed up priorities when they simply made the same game as before with better graphics instead of adding something innovative and then squeezing out whatever graphics they could on top of that. I'll return to my example of MW 2 and BC 2. I think MW 2 looked a ton better, but after a few hours of BC 2, I couldn't go back, because blowing a hole in a wall with a rocket launcher just feels right. Destructible environments was an innovation that allowed for far more immersion in the game than better graphics ever could.

 

[teknoarcanist]

Interesting to hear, considering his latest game was panned for its lackluster combat and hodge-podge graphics

 

[WanderingFool]

Shut Up Spector. Take a look at what you promissed for Epic Mickey and whyt you actually delivered then reconsider talking and mentioning obvious things as wise chants.

You expected a Disney game to be good. Wow, just wow. Expecting a disney game to be good at all is like expecting radiation to give you super powers. Don't believe any Disney hype. He also made Deus ex, which pretty much gives him immunity to say whatever the hell he wants.

I agree with you on the expecting Disney games to be good, but I naively still hope on occaision.

On the fact that he has immunity because he made Deus Ex, I disagree. No body has immunity, unless everything they make is gold.

 

[Popido]

Damn kids. Have some respect to your elderly.

 

[Smooth Operator]

While I absolutely agree with him on this, I do wonder why Epic Mickey didn't show us anything in that direction... and why it sucked so bad.

And while CoD games are the biggest sellers, companies wont give a rats ass about story it will just be more graphics and combat, even Mass Effect has fallen victim to this and Dragon Age isn't far behind.
I do fear what the new installment of Deus Ex will bring.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

But storytelling is something that other mediums can do...It's still nice to have a good story in games. But I don't think that storytelling should become the focus on the future of this medium.

We really should focus on the core mechanics of the thrills of running, jumping, fighting, and exploring. Things that other mediums can't deliver.

Story should take a backseat to gameplay.

I am sad to hear this. If we ever want to be accepted by the main stream than we need to move away from explotions and sammy FPS games and actualy have story

I'm not saying me need expolsions and stuff.

I'm looking at games like Okami and Psychonauts.

Gameplay driven, with the story being there, but far from the most important part.

Game play elements when done well are important. I agree with you there but with out story to go along with that you would just have a boring game with some interesting game play. So the story is just as important as game play elements.

I don't know about you...but I'll gladly put up with a shitty story for good gameplay.

I won't put up with gameplay I don't enjoy just for a good story.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm all for adding more dynamic storytelling while engaging in action, but games like Epic Mickey prove we have a long way to go in that.

Yeah, it's like the mind behind Gears of War complaining games aren't colourful enough or the mind behind Grand Theft Auto IV complaining that there isn't enought non-combat conflict resolution.

Modern games completely ignore one of the main aspects that made older games immersive; management. Inventory management, time management, party composition, loot allocation, meaningful leveling choices.

System Shock 2 had a tetris inventory and you could spend your limited "leveling" points to increase your inventory space if that was a priority for you.

IMO Bioshock wasn't as good of a game as it could have been because the consolization process explicitly removed almost all of the management activities.

I wouldn't blame consoles. The fact is, gamers don't want complexity.

 

[WingedFortress]

Actually, now that you've clarified a bit, I think I agree with you on most points, but I'm going to keep writing about why I agree because I like big blocks of text.

I would have snipped it all to save space, but that whole line made me laugh out loud.

I just wanted to say most everything what you say I whole heartedly agree with. Time and time again I've come back to the games the *intrigue* me the most, like Game Dev Sim on the ipod touch. Simple, to the point, with most of the big pictures occurring in your head. Its how alot of us played videogames in the early nineties - in our own little brains.

Thats why, for me, graphics are like the icing on the cake. Kind of the end result I always envisioned gaming coming to, one where graphics compliment the gameplay, and not vice versa. Its depressing that in all the work thats been done to push pixels, alot of what made games fun seems to be forgotten, or at least ignored for the time being. But I still hold out for the day that a game can look like Modern Warfare, blow up like battlefield, and play like Half Life 2. A guy can dream, right?

Side note - Minecraft is gorgeous. I'd take my home underground over my real one anyday.

 

[mjc0961]

In other words, Warren Spector is still upset that people didn't like Epic Mickey. Except this one makes no sense because by nearly all accounts I've heard, it doesn't focus all that much on story and great dialog either. Is he trying to fool himself? He sure isn't fooling me.

But storytelling is something that other mediums can do...It's still nice to have a good story in games. But I don't think that storytelling should become the focus on the future of this medium.

We really should focus on the core mechanics of the thrills of running, jumping, fighting, and exploring. Things that other mediums can't deliver.

Story should take a backseat to gameplay.

Agreed 100%. They are called video GAMES for a reason, because you play them. Any medium can tell a story, but only games have that interactive element and it shouldn't take a backseat to anything else. A great story is always a nice plus for a game, but not having one isn't the end of the world either.

I am sad to hear this. If we ever want to be accepted by the main stream than we need to move away from explotions and sammy FPS games and actualy have story

What? No. That argument has never made sense before and it still makes none now. There are more to games than explosions and the FPS genre. If you think otherwise, maybe it's your own fault for not buying something more than Call of Duty or Halo once in a while. But I'll be sure to tell Nintendo and other companies that Mario and other games need less explosions and first person shooting and more story just because you said so.

You've got to love the gamer community sometimes; the only 'fans' who will tear down a lifetime of exceptional achievement because of one AVERAGE game. I have nothing but respect for WS; he helped create Deus Ex over a decade ago and single player RPG's have hardly moved since. The industry needs people like him and Peter Molyneux.

And I have no respect for him because of how he's acting right now, throwing this temper tantrum and lashing out at gamers and other developers alike just because his game got slammed. It actually has nothing to do with Epic Mickey at all and everything to do with his own words. So he made some good games in the past. Good for him. That doesn't mean I'm not going to call him a dick when he's being a dick, and right now he is indeed being a dick.

Also, I don't see any reason why making good games is a reason to respect him. It's a reason to say "He's a good game designer" and nothing more, at least to me.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

Just look at Minecraft, that game doesn't have a bit of story or lore or anything and it's graphics aren't certainly the best I've seen, it's just pure and simple gameplay with lots and lots of exploration, among (a lot of) other things.

I agree on the Minecraft bit, but unfortunately you can't really ever attach much story to that game. It strives off its randomness and to try to weave a coherent plot that embraces rather than alienates that randomness will be difficult, if not impossible.

I mean, just before writing this comment, i was playing in Minecraft, just exploring and i found this awesome pair of mountains that jut straight up with a natural arc bridge connecting the top and a pristine lake underneath. So i spent 5 minutes trekking to the top of that thing, only to swan dive off of the bridge into the lake. Minecraft is an Excellent game in spite of the fact that it has 1)Terrible Combat 2)No story or characters and 3)No fancy Graphics.

 

[felixader]

Shut Up Spector. Take a look at what you promissed for Epic Mickey and whyt you actually delivered then reconsider talking and mentioning obvious things as wise chants.

You expected a Disney game to be good. Wow, just wow. Expecting a disney game to be good at all is like expecting radiation to give you super powers. Don't believe any Disney hype. He also made Deus ex, which pretty much gives him immunity to say whatever the hell he wants.

I very much liked some of the racing games they made recently.

 

[Jumplion]

And we need more games like Okami in the world: Games that have only a handful of gameplay mechanics, but integrate them in the most diverse ways.

I know I'm probably going to get flayed and/or lynched for this, but I do think Okami is overrated. When people say that it's "art" (which you didn't say, just sayin') the only real "artsy" aspect about it are the visuals, and the rest of the gameplay is pretty much Legend of Zelda and standard storytelling through cutscenes. That says nothing about the game itself, it's a good game, but honestly I just think it's got way too much credit than it deserves.

And now I am going to be executed. Tell my wife I love her.

OT: I agree with Spector here, games can tell stories in entirely new and different ways than other mediums can. Hopefully when more developers realize this we will see more innovative titles on all fronts, in both a gameplay, storytelling, and visual aspects.

 

[Casual Shinji]

And we need more games like Okami in the world: Games that have only a handful of gameplay mechanics, but integrate them in the most diverse ways.

I know I'm probably going to get flayed and/or lynched for this, but I do think Okami is overrated. When people say that it's "art" (which you didn't say, just sayin') the only real "artsy" aspect about it are the visuals, and the rest of the gameplay is pretty much Legend of Zelda and standard storytelling through cutscenes. That says nothing about the game itself, it's a good game, but honestly I just think it's got way too much credit than it deserves.

And now I am going to be executed. Tell my wife I love her.

I love this game (and I mean REALLY LOVE it), but I never really hear to many people praise it at all.

The reason I mentioned Okami is simply because it's the first action game that springs to mind when I think of diverse gameplay. Eventhough it has only a handfull of gameplay mechanics, you never feel like you're repeating the same actions over and over. I'm a big fan of action/adventure games, but most of the recent ones are 80% killing enemies, 20% running and jumping.

In Okami you were always doing something different or helping people out in unique ways. I know it's like Zelda, but it was this completely new and fresh world with loveable characters and interesting gameplay (which in my opinion controlled a lot better than a Zelda game).

But I could have also giving Half-Life 2 as a prime example. Then again, there seems to be kind of an aversion against HL2 on this forum these days so some people might think I'm crazy.

 

[RatRace123]

I agree with Spector, as an interactive medium games can tell stories in ways that no other medium can, RPGs and games like Heavy Rain (Which I can say would probably classify as a sort of point and click adventure game in a way) are the leading examples of this.
The main advantage games have over movies or books or TV is the fact that players can decide what happens, essentially making themselves directors or authors or what have you.

 

[Jumplion]

And we need more games like Okami in the world: Games that have only a handful of gameplay mechanics, but integrate them in the most diverse ways.

I know I'm probably going to get flayed and/or lynched for this, but I do think Okami is overrated. When people say that it's "art" (which you didn't say, just sayin') the only real "artsy" aspect about it are the visuals, and the rest of the gameplay is pretty much Legend of Zelda and standard storytelling through cutscenes. That says nothing about the game itself, it's a good game, but honestly I just think it's got way too much credit than it deserves.

And now I am going to be executed. Tell my wife I love her.

I love this game (and I mean REALLY LOVE it), but I never really hear to many people praise it at all.

The reason I mentioned Okami is simply because it's the first action game that springs to mind when I think of diverse gameplay. Eventhough it has only a handfull of gameplay mechanics, you never feel like you're repeating the same actions over and over. I'm a big fan of action/adventure games, but most of the recent ones are 80% killing enemies, 20% running and jumping.

In Okami you were always doing something different or helping people out in unique ways. I know it's like Zelda, but it was this completely new and fresh world with loveable characters and interesting gameplay (which in my opinion controlled a lot better than a Zelda game).

But I could have also giving Half-Life 2 as a prime example. Then again, there seems to be kind of an aversion against HL2 on this forum these days so some people might think I'm crazy.

Eh, as much as I hated myself for it, I never finished Okami. I just got stuck on a point in the game and just didn't go back. That usually happens to most of the Wii games I've played, but I do wish I got into it more. Oh well.

 

[eelel]

But storytelling is something that other mediums can do...It's still nice to have a good story in games. But I don't think that storytelling should become the focus on the future of this medium.

We really should focus on the core mechanics of the thrills of running, jumping, fighting, and exploring. Things that other mediums can't deliver.

Story should take a backseat to gameplay.

I am sad to hear this. If we ever want to be accepted by the main stream than we need to move away from explotions and sammy FPS games and actualy have story

I'm not saying me need expolsions and stuff.

I'm looking at games like Okami and Psychonauts.

Gameplay driven, with the story being there, but far from the most important part.

Game play elements when done well are important. I agree with you there but with out story to go along with that you would just have a boring game with some interesting game play. So the story is just as important as game play elements.

I don't know about you...but I'll gladly put up with a shitty story for good gameplay.

I won't put up with gameplay I don't enjoy just for a good story.

I just want to make shure. Are you some one who likes a movie as long as the special effects are good and dosn't give a crap about the story?

 

[Electrogecko]

I give the guy credit for the games he did in the past (save SystemShock, but thats my own personal preference), But this guy should just keep his mouth shut.

No more than you do.


I love Spector and I always agree with everything he says. (You'll find that a lot of Nintendo fans do) We're passed the point where increasing the polygon count will much noticeably improve visuals, and combat-centric games mostly appeal to immature and insecure teenagers. It's enough to almost make me wish that gaming would go back to being a completely seclusive hobby. I will tell you with a straight face that Banjo-Tooie is the second best game you could possibly play on your 360 (after Portal) and it came out over a decade ago!

And we need more games like Okami in the world: Games that have only a handful of gameplay mechanics, but integrate them in the most diverse ways.

I know I'm probably going to get flayed and/or lynched for this, but I do think Okami is overrated. When people say that it's "art" (which you didn't say, just sayin') the only real "artsy" aspect about it are the visuals, and the rest of the gameplay is pretty much Legend of Zelda and standard storytelling through cutscenes. That says nothing about the game itself, it's a good game, but honestly I just think it's got way too much credit than it deserves.

And now I am going to be executed. Tell my wife I love her.

I love this game (and I mean REALLY LOVE it), but I never really hear to many people praise it at all.

The reason I mentioned Okami is simply because it's the first action game that springs to mind when I think of diverse gameplay. Eventhough it has only a handfull of gameplay mechanics, you never feel like you're repeating the same actions over and over. I'm a big fan of action/adventure games, but most of the recent ones are 80% killing enemies, 20% running and jumping.

In Okami you were always doing something different or helping people out in unique ways. I know it's like Zelda, but it was this completely new and fresh world with loveable characters and interesting gameplay (which in my opinion controlled a lot better than a Zelda game).

But I could have also giving Half-Life 2 as a prime example. Then again, there seems to be kind of an aversion against HL2 on this forum these days so some people might think I'm crazy.

I disagree. I LOVE Okami, (seriously fucking fabulous game- we need more like it) and I agree that the characters were lovable and the world was beautiful, but I felt let down by several brush technique in that a lot of them felt way too similar (like exactly the same). I feel that the items in Zelda generally do a better job of showcasing a variety of puzzles and implementations, but don't ask me to choose between the two games.

 

[AsurasFinest]

But storytelling is something that other mediums can do...It's still nice to have a good story in games. But I don't think that storytelling should become the focus on the future of this medium.

We really should focus on the core mechanics of the thrills of running, jumping, fighting, and exploring. Things that other mediums can't deliver.

Story should take a backseat to gameplay.

Disagree
Without a story to give some sort of context to what your doing, the game becomes boring, you can have the best mechanics for gameplay in the world but if you can't make the player care enough to bother going on with it then there is no point
( note this only applies to decent stories as well, Bayonetta can take a shove off a cliff for having this weird ass story that constantly made me want to punch the screen)

Take Serious Sam for example
Great game mechanics, lots of fun
But I find myself getting bored after 10-20 minutes because even though they have great gameplay, I'm just kind of there, killing things for some weird reason thats never really told to me
I really don't have a reason to keep bothering to get past those enemies, because I know it will only be more enemies ahead and nothing meaningful