Was it Homophobic?

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

I always propose this thought exercise when homophobia comes up: Imagine it's racism and change "homosexuals" for "blacks" in whatever you just said.

Let's try it out, shall we?

"You just need to tolerate black people, you don't have to like them.

I don't like black people, but I won't treat a black person any different because of it. So long as who he is isn't based entirely around his race, I'm cool with him."

Yeeeeah. Not as neutral as you intended, probably.

It isn't neutral because being black and being gay is different. I said I don't like homosexuality not that I don't like gay people. I don't like the idea of men getting it on with other men but that's not to say I don't like the men getting it on.

Don't take things out of context, that's why it doesn't sound neutral.

 

[s0denone]

Ah, read that twice, did you? Not so cool with "you don't have to like black people" said openly in casual conversation, are we?

No. Just about as cool as saying "You don't have to like gays" said openly.
Just because saying something is socially stigmatised, doesn't mean whatever those things are, are wrong.

Yeah, I like this game. Let's do the OP. I'm going to go with antisemitism. Religion is clearly a choice, after all, so you should be able to be waaay more antisemitic than you are homophobic, shouldn't you?

What? So you are indeed telling me that people I do not like, I have a phobia of?
Now... You even go as far as equating "homophobia" with "antisemitism" in terms of the feelings involved.
That is completely absurd in and off itself. Please reconsider your entire argument.
Either you are working on a very broad definition of "homophobia" in that even mild things such as being uncomfortable around them means you are it... Or you are equating the feelings to antisemitism, which would mean intense prejudice and dislike.

"A friend of mine saw a very provocative jewish rights poster in our school. It was two men dressed as rabbis praying. He asked me if was antisemitic if he felt uncomfortable with it . I told him " It's fine to be uncomfortable with it, you're not a jew basher so I don't see a problem". I knew which poster he was talking about. I told him " It pissed me off, but for a different reason". The poster said "Antisemitism is a social disease".When I saw it I thought to myself " fuck you, just because a person isn't down with who you are does not make them socially diseased."

That poster just really bothers me in general. It's really in your face. I understand the fact that the jew community hasn't had it easy, but I don't think you need to be all up in peoples face about it. You're a jew, big fucking deal ( i'm in Canada).I almost want to rip that poster down. Your part of the human fucking race, you religion in meaningless and none of my concern.

In short; Is okay to be uncomfortable with judaism. I say yes.

I'm most likely wrong somewhere in here. I do enjoy other peoples perspective in such things, and love expanding my own perspective."

You know what? I'm an atheist.
I don't like religion.
Does that mean I hate everyone religous? Nope.
Does that mean I do not tolerate anyone religious? Nope.
Does that mean I do not like religion? Yes.

Gaaah, so uncomfortable to read. Comedy gold, really.

You know what?
I'll just reiterate what I said before, to make sure you understand:
Antisemitism = Great dislike and prejudice.
If homophobia = Great dislike and prejudice THEN being uncomfortable around a poster of two gay gentlemen making out is NOT homophobia.

EDIT: To make it clear:
If you are working with above definition of homophobia(which I would actually agree with you on), then being homophobic requires you to discriminate, hate or otherwise go out of your way to make life worse for those who are gay.

 

[Stasisesque]

I always propose this thought exercise when homophobia comes up: Imagine it's racism and change "homosexuals" for "blacks" in whatever you just said.

Let's try it out, shall we?

"You just need to tolerate black people, you don't have to like them.

I don't like black people, but I won't treat a black person any different because of it. So long as who he is isn't based entirely around his race, I'm cool with him."

Yeeeeah. Not as neutral as you intended, probably.

Are you telling me that people I don't like, I have a phobia of?
I agree entirely with your quote there, with the "black people" in it.

There isn't anything remotely racist in it at all.
People shouldn't be defined by (or "based around") their race at all, they should be defined by their actions.

EDIT: I should note, though, that I don't agree with the "I don't like black people[...]", but that I agree with the reasoning that follows it.

Ah, read that twice, did you? Not so cool with "you don't have to like black people" said openly in casual conversation, are we?

Yeah, I like this game. Let's do the OP. I'm going to go with antisemitism. Religion is clearly a choice, after all, so you should be able to be waaay more antisemitic than you are homophobic, shouldn't you?

"A friend of mine saw a very provocative jewish rights poster in our school. It was two men dressed as rabbis praying. He asked me if was antisemitic if he felt uncomfortable with it . I told him " It's fine to be uncomfortable with it, you're not a jew basher so I don't see a problem". I knew which poster he was talking about. I told him " It pissed me off, but for a different reason". The poster said "Antisemitism is a social disease".When I saw it I thought to myself " fuck you, just because a person isn't down with who you are does not make them socially diseased."

That poster just really bothers me in general. It's really in your face. I understand the fact that the jew community hasn't had it easy, but I don't think you need to be all up in peoples face about it. You're a jew, big fucking deal ( i'm in Canada).I almost want to rip that poster down. Your part of the human fucking race, you religion in meaningless and none of my concern.

In short; Is okay to be uncomfortable with judaism. I say yes.

I'm most likely wrong somewhere in here. I do enjoy other peoples perspective in such things, and love expanding my own perspective."

Gaaah, so uncomfortable to read. Comedy gold, really.

From some of the threads/posts on this very forum, it'd be fairly easy to come to the conclusion that it's quite all right to outright hate religion, religious people, religious teachings and so forth. This forum alone has less tolerance of religion than the entire USA (little overstatement on the last point, I admit).

That said, tolerate by dictionary definition is the putting up with/granting liberty/permitting people/acts/choices/races/ideals. Tolerance means to not prohibit, it does not mean to like. There's even an argument on whether it means acceptance - personally I'd separate tolerance and acceptance, your view may vary.

We are not living in a 1984 scenario, there is no such thing as thoughtcrime. You will rarely discover whether or not someone is tolerating or accepting you for who/what you are - whether that be gay, black, Jewish etc. and so forth. And you are perfectly capable of teaching tolerance to others.

 

[Whitenail]

Um... you are... actually... right, OP. It's okay to have posters up but that one seems too In Your Face about it.

[sub][sub][sub]Wait... if they can put that poster up... can I put up a...? You know what, nevermind. I didn't say anything.[/sub][/sub][/sub]

Speaking of "in your face" it's yet another post wherein you bring up the fact that you're a pedophile...if we really wanted to know about what you're attracted to it's right up there in your profile, you don't get a badge for typing the word "Pedophile" 1600 times. I'm sorry but despite the time I spend here it has literally been segued into every one of your posts that I've seen, even one on gun ownership.

OP: I think that's a fairly rational way of looking at it, while I'm fine with the LGBT community I think your sexual or gender orientation shouldn't be the sole, defining factor of who you are as a person and it should not make you think that you're entitled to take the soap-box and fill people's ear-holes with you broadcasting what you're like.

But I've honestly wondered what it would be like if heterosexual people tried living up to gay culture, I envision straight pride parades where all we do is march in succesion while wearing outfits of grey.

 

[clockout]

I always propose this thought exercise when homophobia comes up: Imagine it's racism and change "homosexuals" for "blacks" in whatever you just said.

Let's try it out, shall we?

"You just need to tolerate black people, you don't have to like them.

I don't like black people, but I won't treat a black person any different because of it. So long as who he is isn't based entirely around his race, I'm cool with him."

Yeeeeah. Not as neutral as you intended, probably.

Are you telling me that people I don't like, I have a phobia of?
I agree entirely with your quote there, with the "black people" in it.

There isn't anything remotely racist in it at all.
People shouldn't be defined by (or "based around") their race at all, they should be defined by their actions.

EDIT: I should note, though, that I don't agree with the "I don't like black people[...]", but that I agree with the reasoning that follows it.

Ah, read that twice, did you? Not so cool with "you don't have to like black people" said openly in casual conversation, are we?

Yeah, I like this game. Let's do the OP. I'm going to go with antisemitism. Religion is clearly a choice, after all, so you should be able to be waaay more antisemitic than you are homophobic, shouldn't you?

"A friend of mine saw a very provocative jewish rights poster in our school. It was two men dressed as rabbis praying. He asked me if was antisemitic if he felt uncomfortable with it . I told him " It's fine to be uncomfortable with it, you're not a jew basher so I don't see a problem". I knew which poster he was talking about. I told him " It pissed me off, but for a different reason". The poster said "Antisemitism is a social disease".When I saw it I thought to myself " fuck you, just because a person isn't down with who you are does not make them socially diseased."

That poster just really bothers me in general. It's really in your face. I understand the fact that the jew community hasn't had it easy, but I don't think you need to be all up in peoples face about it. You're a jew, big fucking deal ( i'm in Canada).I almost want to rip that poster down. Your part of the human fucking race, you religion in meaningless and none of my concern.

In short; Is okay to be uncomfortable with judaism. I say yes.

I'm most likely wrong somewhere in here. I do enjoy other peoples perspective in such things, and love expanding my own perspective."

Gaaah, so uncomfortable to read. Comedy gold, really.

I've read and read other post, but you...you honestly got me here. I do feel like a douche now, because I walked right into this. At least you didn't pull out the n-word, but judaism serve well enough. Lessoned learned.

 

[supermariner]

you can't help how you react to something
if you don't like it, then you don't like it

it depends how you deal with your feelings about it
if you react in a tolerant and understanding way
you don't HAVE to like it. No it's not homophobic

 

[Actual]

Someone in my class really likes to watch "how I met you mother" and his favourite charakter is Barney Stinson and when he found out that his actor, Neil Patrick Harris, is gay he said that he couldn't believe it and that he doesn't like him anymore.

When I find out he was gay, my reaction was:

"He's gay and he can play such a convincing and hilarious womaniser!? Legendary!"

On topic, I'd like to put a floor to ceiling poster of me with my tongue tickling some girl's tonsils, and the big text stating "Makes you uncomfortable? Then you're mentally diseased and socially deficient! or you have a reasonable sense of polite boundaries."

I really hate in your face, I'm here I'm queer, militant gays.

Yeah, I like this game. Let's do the OP. I'm going to go with antisemitism. Religion is clearly a choice, after all, so you should be able to be waaay more antisemitic than you are homophobic, shouldn't you?

"A friend of mine saw a very provocative jewish rights poster in our school. It was two men dressed as rabbis praying. He asked me if was antisemitic if he felt uncomfortable with it . I told him " It's fine to be uncomfortable with it, you're not a jew basher so I don't see a problem". I knew which poster he was talking about. I told him " It pissed me off, but for a different reason". The poster said "Antisemitism is a social disease".When I saw it I thought to myself " fuck you, just because a person isn't down with who you are does not make them socially diseased."

That poster just really bothers me in general. It's really in your face. I understand the fact that the jew community hasn't had it easy, but I don't think you need to be all up in peoples face about it. You're a jew, big fucking deal ( i'm in Canada).I almost want to rip that poster down. Your part of the human fucking race, you religion in meaningless and none of my concern.

In short; Is okay to be uncomfortable with judaism. I say yes.

I'm most likely wrong somewhere in here. I do enjoy other peoples perspective in such things, and love expanding my own perspective."

Gaaah, so uncomfortable to read. Comedy gold, really.

I like what you're doing with this thought experiment but I'm afraid it doesn't quite fit in that case. This could be transferred to religion if the poster had the image you described but instead said "If you're not a believer in the Jewish faith you are a flawed person."

The homosexuality poster was outside the limits of politeness and blaming the people it made uncomfortable for it's rudeness. Instead of kissing why not have them holding hands, that's at least acceptable behaviour in public.

...Actually I think I may be being old-fashioned here, a lot of posters do have overt sexuality in them. Can we get rid of them all regardless of the gender of the photographed?

 

[MassiveGeek]

It's not homophobic but it does hint at an underlying prejudice (which I imagine may have more to do with gender than orientation).

Also, I don't see how saying "homophobia is a social disease" translates into calling homophobic people diseased. The LGBT community still doesn't have it "easy", and they need to be "up in people's faces about it" otherwise enough people don't listen or care.

Or just feeling uncomfortable. I'd feel uncomfortable around a giant poster of two guys making out, and I'm female - there's no "fear" there of being hit on by a man - that's actually what I want. I just, like many, don't find public displays of affection, between any gender/sexuality, to be particularly... necessary.

It's common amongst older generations, the same type who are uncomfortable about sexually charged scenes in programmes on before the watershed. Those values are still being passed down, and have nothing to do with homophobia.

As has already been mentioned, you don't need to like something to tolerate it. If you're pushing for people to like homosexuality, you're in for a tough battle.

That's what she said.

... No, she really did.

I do agree with it.

Sorry for the super, super awful joke that may or may not be applicable, it doesn't say what sex you are on your page.

 

[Actual]

you don't need to like something to tolerate it.

That's what she said.

... No, she really did.

Funny, I'm often telling women they don't need to like it to tolerate it.

 

[Stasisesque]

We are not living in a 1984 scenario, there is no such thing as thoughtcrime. You will rarely discover whether or not someone is tolerating or accepting you for who/what you are - whether that be gay, black, Jewish etc. and so forth. And you are perfectly capable of teaching tolerance to others.

No, there is certainly no such thing as a thought crime, but there is a taboo. Being outspoken about disliking jewish people or black people is frowned upon socially, and when people wonder if their negative feelings based on race or religion are fine they normally come to the conclusion that, based on peer pressure, they are probably wrong.

That's how you eradicate prejudice. Legally, we can grant equal rights to gays, jews or blacks overnight. That's easy. If we also want to integrate people in society, there's something to be said about being vocal against racist or homophobic people just to deliver the point that it's not alright to discriminate, even if we can't stop anybody from doing so in their own heads.

For the record, I'm also an atheist, and I will argue about the dangers of religion all night if I'm given the chance, but you won't see me arguing for preventing people from exercising their faith in public, as you won't see me arguing for preventing people from showing their sexual orientation in public.

I can't agree. Demonising those who are vocal about their prejudices does nothing but martyr them, being outspoken about prejudice and that it has no place in modern society will fall on deaf ears for as long as tolerance is not common.

I'm not going to presume to know where prejudices are born, but I think we can safely agree there is a lot of evidence to suggest it is commonly passed down amongst from older, less tolerant generations. The best (in my opinion) way to combat this never ending cycle is to teach those who teach the younger generations. Not with rampant displays of homosexuality, or cries of bigotry from every Tom, Dick and Harry but level headed, calm debate and discussion. Rather than comparing someone who feels they may be homophobic to a racist, when one is a very new taboo and the other has been around for three generations now, teach them why homosexuality is a-okay.

Don't expect everyone to suddenly jump on the Gay bandwagon, they're not going to. But spreading tolerance to those who can use it for good, for the benefit of society and new generations can only be a good thing.

This thread, and countless others, are proof even the most accepting of people (even those actively involved in the LGBT community) are put off by having sexuality forced down their throats. There are better ways to go about this.

 

[Stasisesque]

you don't need to like something to tolerate it.

That's what she said.

... No, she really did.

Funny, I'm often telling women they don't need to like it to tolerate it.

OH! Now I get it. I read MassiveGeek's post three or four times trying to work out what the "that's what SHE said" line referred to.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Taking things out of context is precisely why doing this is so enlightening. Because the context of race and religion is already accepted to some extent and racism or religious prejudice is already a taboo, thinking about homosexuality as race or religion helps you visualize the target for acceptance (and really, if the current state of racism is where you want to be, you know you're really suffering discrimination).

Being black and being gay isn't different at all, and that feeling you get when you think about two guys making out is the same feeling people raised in a culture of distrust for other races got when a black person sat next to them in the bus or in a restaurant. I work with gay people. With married gay people, even. If they weren't able to kiss their wives or husbands openly when they see them in the office or in a bar or in a bus stop that would be discrimination up there with separating bathrooms for races or banning interracial marriage.

That uncomfortable feeling is okay, you are allowed to feel like that about someone who's different. What you aren't allowed to do is act on that and discriminate. I'm going to go back to what you changed my post to and rewrite a bit of it.

"You just need to tolerate people being black, you don't have to like it.

I don't like people being black, but I won't treat a black person any different because of it. So long as who he is isn't based entirely around his race, I'm cool with him."

That is neutral because it isn't discrimination. You changed the first sentence to hypothetical me not liking a group but only tolerating them, which is made it discrimination.

I spent a good year of my life spending most of my time with a gay guy and a bisexual girl, I didn't stop my friends expressing their sexuality whether it made me uncomfortable or not. That's the point I'm trying to make, you don't need to like a certain aspect of someone, whether it makes you uncomfortable or not, you need to accept it and let them live the way they want to live.

Just to make my point clear (I tend to mix words and make myself unclear), as long as you treat everyone the same, you aren't homophobic or racist and aren't part of the problem.

 

[Actual]

you don't need to like something to tolerate it.

That's what she said.

... No, she really did.

Funny, I'm often telling women they don't need to like it to tolerate it.

OH! Now I get it. I read MassiveGeek's post three or four times trying to work out what the "that's what SHE said" line referred to.

I live to bring a greater understanding and appreciation of tasteless jokes to the people. *bows*

EDIT: But may have confused you further by screwing up the format in the original quote, L2previewnub!

 

[s0denone]

I can't agree. Demonising those who are vocal about their prejudices does nothing but martyr them, being outspoken about prejudice and that it has no place in modern society will fall on deaf ears for as long as tolerance is not common.

I'm not going to presume to know where prejudices are born, but I think we can safely agree there is a lot of evidence to suggest it is commonly passed down amongst from older, less tolerant generations. The best (in my opinion) way to combat this never ending cycle is to teach those who teach the younger generations. Not with rampant displays of homosexuality, or cries of bigotry from every Tom, Dick and Harry but level headed, calm debate and discussion. Rather than comparing someone who feels they may be homophobic to a racist, when one is a very new taboo and the other has been around for three generations now, teach them why homosexuality is a-okay.

Don't expect everyone to suddenly jump on the Gay bandwagon, they're not going to. But spreading tolerance to those who can use it for good, for the benefit of society and new generations can only be a good thing.

This thread, and countless others, are proof even the most accepting of people (even those actively involved in the LGBT community) are put off by having sexuality forced down their throats. There are better ways to go about this.

And that is the whole point, isn't it?

Being uncomfortable around a poster of two gay gentleman having fun has nothing to with tolerating or not tolerating homosexuals as a whole.

You also brought up, in your previous post, an interesting point about not knowing whether you are accepted or tolerated. I will have to think on that one.

In my book posters such as the one described in the OP serve to further de-normalise homosexuals.
"We are different from you, so you will have to deal with us putting up pictures of us kissing"
Like I would argue gay-pride parades do as well.

You have to treat being gay as a homosexual, as something completely normal. If you go out of your way to inform everyone that you are a homosexual and that they should deal with it, you aren't making anything better - and if anything, you are only serving to make the difference between yourself (a homosexual) and those you are informing (the heterosexuals) even more clear.

I should also quote

Snip

to make sure this isn't a circlejerk.

Noelveiga, above post is for you, too. You, for some reason, cared not to respond to my response to you - but I'm still interested in discussing this with you.

Also is there a "mixed gender" version of "circlejerk"?

 

[Whichi]

Homosexual Tolerance Education is a plague on society.

Corrected.

on that topic, remember that one episode of South Park where Mr Garrison was trying to get fired for being gay? the kids were disrespecting Mr Garrison because their teacher was a few hairs short of being a dingleberry, and everyone was belittling the kids because it sounded like gay bashing.

You're only going to get resistance and resentment when you attempt to impose tolerance and acceptance. When the world is ready to accept and tolerate your choice in sexual preference, it will happen. "We're not there yet, people... evolution is slow, smallpox is fast." ~ George Carlin

And why are homosexuals allowed to have parades in public? Just because they take it in the butt, do the dishes and the decor, and have a bit of sensitivity... what about housewives? They do that AND give birth to something the size of a watermelon, and it comes out a hole the size of a lemon (at best). housewives are unsung heroes.

BTW I'm still unmarried, in case anyone gets that crazy idea that I'm whipped

 

[TheDarkestDerp]

If it really was "no big deal " to you as you say, why would you want to rip down the poster? Homosexual people have to see images of heterosexuals "making out" on everything from billboards to book covers at the grocery checkout. Why does the fact that it's two males upset you so? If it were a person of either sex would it? Or better yet, two attractive females? Either PDA is inappropriate or it isn't.

I wouldn't say you were being homophobic, but I will say you aren't nearly as open-minded as you seem to think.

 

[minimacker]

You don't have to put up posters that you're gay. Who the fuck cares? Are we supposed to feel sympathetic or bad about ourselves for not caring that someone is gay?

I'm pretty sure you don't have to put up posters and spread newsletters if you're Black, White, Christian or Jewish.

Who the fuck cares?

 

[Delicious Anathema]

I don't think highly of gay people, I don't care for them or their sexuality and I don't have a problem being that way.