Was it prudent of Jennifer Lawrence to take pictures of herself nude in the first place? Y/N?

[otakon17]

So have we come to an impasse? Is there no way to represent my opinion on this point without considering that it's not victim blaming but an observation on risky behavior on the victims part that did not invite this to happen but enabled it as a possibility at the very least?

One more thing I'd like to add. A couple of years ago, I got in a car accident that I COULD have prevented, but still wasn't my fault. I was on a four lane road without a turn-lane (two lanes going one way, two lanes going the other). Because there was no turn-lane, the people who want to turn left just had to stop in the middle of the road to wait for the traffic in the other two lanes to stop so they could go.

I was driving in the right lane, and looking ahead I was vaguely aware that a few cars had stopped in the left lane to turn. I was also vaguely aware of a big white pickup truck that was coming up to these cars way too fast. I kind of just assumed he would hit his brakes at some point, but this did not happen. He ended up having to choose between staying in that lane and hitting three cars in a row, or merging over into my lane and hitting just me. He chose me, and slammed my little car into the sidewalk where luckily no pedestrians were walking, knocking both of my axles out of alignment, taking out my driver side mirror, damaging my driver side door and front left panel, damaging the front driver side tire, and completely severing the passenger side tire which was forced onto the sidewalk.

If I had been paying more active attention to the other lane, I could have noticed what was going on and slowed down to let this guy get over, preventing all of that damage. HOWEVER, legally it was still his fault, as he was the one who wasn't paying attention to what was going on in his OWN lane. And it was his insurance that paid for the damages.



The fact that I could have prevented it does not make what he did any more excusable, and nor does it shift any of the responsibility to me. He was the one in the wrong from beginning to end. Any actions that I could have taken to prevent it are irrelevant, because in this case saying I could have prevented it by paying better attention is as useful as saying I could have prevented it by not driving at all.

Then I suppose that answers my question... I think I'll close this topic as it was said before, what I thought didn't need saying at all really.

 

[Something Amyss]

The fact that I could have prevented it does not make what he did any more excusable, and nor does it shift any of the responsibility to me. He was the one in the wrong from beginning to end. Any actions that I could have taken to prevent it are irrelevant, because in this case saying I could have prevented it by paying better attention is as useful as saying I could have prevented it by not driving at all.

If I could "like" this, I would, but I'll do the next best thing:

Several years ago, I was in a car accident where I was rear-ended. I had stopped at an intersection to let a car out because it's a difficult intersection and while I had no traffic to my back, they only had a small window before traffic from the other side would cut them off. While I'm sitting there, a guy comes speeding down the street behind me so fast I only see him at the last second and hits me with such force that my car almost slams into the car I was letting out. I was standing on the brakes at the time. The only thought in my head was that if I didn't keep on the brakes I would slam into that car.

Could this have been prevented? Yeah. I could have not stopped to let that car out. Or, the guy in the other car who left before the cops got there who sounded like he was drunk or stoned out of his mind could have not been speeding and possibly under the influence through one of the most dangerous intersections in town. And I would be piiiiiiiiiiiiiissed if someone told me it was my fault for stopping.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

So have we come to an impasse? Is there no way to represent my opinion on this point without considering that it's not victim blaming but an observation on risky behavior on the victims part that did not invite this to happen but enabled it as a possibility at the very least?

In all honesty, what you're trying to get across isn't very useful to anybody, because it really isn't a thing that needs to be said. I'm sure Jennifer Lawrence is perfectly aware that if she hadn't taken those pictures, they wouldn't be on the Internet right now. But just as somebody who buys an expensive TV accepts the risk of somebody trying to steal it, she accepted the risk of somebody exposing her pictures. People stealing expensive TVs is not a reason to argue that people should not own expensive TVs.

really funny bit about this, I was about to use this exact example, I had a friend who didn't live in a ....nice neighborhood to put it nicely, for quite a while, and he decided to buy a nice tv one day and had it delivered and such....and what do you know, not a week later and while he was at work, his house got broken into and it was ripped right off the wall. Right when he was moving in I tried to warn him about the neighborhood and about showing/buying nice stuff, and I had to bite my lip a bit when he told me about his tv.

While obviously people that stole it were pieces of shit, do you think he could've used better judgement *at all* in this scenario?

Me personally, I don't expect people to be anything other than pieces of shit, so when I lived in not so nice areas I didn't buy anything nice and never had more than 10 bucks at a time in my wallet just in case.

(I know this is getting off topic, but I feel like some people are getting biased with the fact it's jennifer lawrence, this kind of shit has happened for years, but now that it is a bunch of popular celebrities, especially Jlaw, people are hulking out over it which seems unfair to the people it has happened to in the past and they never received this kind of response.)

 

[wetnap]

Prudent in the era of Kim Kardashian?

Honestly its not that bad anymore, and no one really cares.

What matters is whether your pictures are flattering, since that is what sticks in the public consciousness.

All the moral handwringing aside, its the ultimate form of flattery if that many people want to see you naked.

 

[Something Amyss]

So have we come to an impasse? Is there no way to represent my opinion on this point without considering that it's not victim blaming but an observation on risky behavior on the victims part that did not invite this to happen but enabled it as a possibility at the very least?

Quite possibly, we are at an impasse. I don't mean to be mean or dismissive (and I appreciate you asking if we were at an impasse rather than attacking me), I just can't see how to approach this in a way that this is broachable.

I mean, if you could come up with a way, I'd be interested in seeing how, but I can't see it myself.

 

[Stats ^1]

A lot of people take nude photos of themselves in the privacy of their own homes. I'm sure a lot of escapist members here have done it. Also, when you have a partner, you sometimes do sexy things like send naked pictures.

Why is Jennifer Lawrence somehow not allowed to do that?

There's also the point that some of the victims supposedly deleting the imagea, but iCloud kept the data saved anyway.

 

[Atmos Duality]

No, but isn't that the new tech push? Store EVERYTHING to the cloud? Especially iproduct users with limited storage? I mean, it may not have even occurred to her to process these differently. There was a time where you stored to a floppy as a matter of course. Now, people use "the cloooooooooooud."

I don't know, it baffles me, too, but I can certainly hazard a guess.

There's definitely added risk associated with this kind of convenience.

All I can say is that accessibility cuts both ways. I think there's going to be a learning period with Cloud tech just as there was when multimedia was new, and enabled otherwise benign software to be used for ill intent.

Frankly, this entire thing has only proven to me something I've always said:

"Unless you want people to see them, you should NEVER take naked pictures of yourself. For any reason."

And this opinion has only been strengthened as time goes on, with how easy it is to share and store images on the internet. And, conversely, how commonplace hacking and privacy invasion has become. It's simply IMPOSSIBLE to leave data on the internet in ANY form, and be completely certain that it is secure. Even deleted data can be restored (and seemingly WAS, in this case), so really, the best defense in this case is simply some foresight.

So it was restored...heh.

I shouldn't laugh, but people always gave me funny looks when I told them that deleted doesn't necessarily mean "gone for good"...usually followed by an explanation of data shredding or emulation.

And you capture the heart of what I'm kind of getting at: the Internet NEVER forgets.
No matter how much you wished it would.

 

[Skatologist]

Prudent in the era of Kim Kardashian?

Honestly its not that bad anymore, and no one really cares.

What matters is whether your pictures are flattering, since that is what sticks in the public consciousness.

All the moral handwringing aside, its the ultimate form of flattery if that many people want to see you naked.

Wanting to see me naked a flattery? I'm a guy and I'm creeped out by anyone doing such a thing, male or female, I could only imagine how a woman like Ms. Lawrence would feel. Me possibly taking pictures of myself nude is not an invitation for anyone beyond those who I'm willing to share them with to see them.

EDIT: And I will also not show anyone those aspects of my anatomy if they don't wish to see them, unless I find a really good reason to become a nudist.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

Maybe she didn't know how sensitive iCloud can be. Can you really blame someone for not knowing something? Everything looks 20/20 in hindsight.
I wonder if everyone who posted here has not looked at the photos. I feel like it would be wrong to blame her and look at the photos, or worse, defend her and then look at the photos.

One conversation I wonder if people are having is to blame people who looked at the photos. The hacker is obviously horrible for stealing the photos and posting them online....but aren't you the ones looking at the photos without her permission?

Isn't that kind of the same as walking into her iCloud account and accessing the photos yourself? The hacker just opened the door for you.

I haven't looked at any naked celebrity photos.

 

[D.j. Wellborn]

I pretty much agree with the general consensus here: She's a human being with human thoughts and needs so she can do what she wants and she should be able to do just that without being scrutinized for it or having to always think if there's "some way someone can invade this privacy of mine". It's ridiculous that the general thoughts and opinions of the common folk are that just because someone is famous it means that they deserve no privacy and that every part of their lives is open to the public.

Ridiculous.

Now my question is, why is Jennifer Lawrence the only one mentioned? As I hear, multiple stars had their pictures stolen and shared so why is it only JLaw's that's come under such a discussion? Shouldn't this be about the all those stars in general or do they not count because JLaw is some how special or did something wrong?

 

[Skatologist]

I wonder if everyone who posted here has not looked at the photos. I feel like it would be wrong to blame her and look at the photos, or worse, defend her and then look at the photos.



One conversation I wonder if people are having is to blame people who looked at the photos. The hacker is obviously horrible for stealing the photos and posting them online....but aren't you the ones looking at the photos without her permission?

Isn't that kind of the same as walking into her iCloud account and accessing the photos yourself? The hacker just opened the door for you.

I haven't looked at any naked celebrity photos.

I refuse to if it's not in an article, and even then, I really try to just scroll past it. I even try to avoid celebrity nudes too myself. I usually know it is without their consent and knowledge, so I don't bother. I would probably feel disgusted with myself if I ever met them and had done...you know what. So I tend to avoid those practices for myself, but I try not to judge others when they do it, but if a person like Ms. Lawrence is against her personal images being online, I'm for her telling people to not spread it/do anything wrong with it.

 

[Cidward]

I have not looked at the photos.

Adults in adult relationships share photos like this between themselves and, in a secure relationship that involves some measure of trust, it's healthy and fun for everyone involved.

I am 100% positive non-celebrity adults in adult relationships have taken similar pictures with their iPhone, unaware that it's backing up everything to the cloud, because like most people they just scroll straight through those disclaimers so they can start using their phone.

This is a cautionary tale to those non-celebrity adults, but consenting adults who are both celebrities and not celebrities should be able to have secure relationships with people they trust where occasionally they see each other and pictures of each other naked. Whether it's "prudent" or not, I don't think this should be difficult to grasp.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

So much victim blaming in this thread.

Never change Escapist, it's always great for my self esteem.

 

[ChristopherT]

I'm a bit of an asshole, and I'm going to lay some blame on the victims. Victims. Jennifer Lawrence was NOT the only one. I think there was at least five confirmed victims, mixed with quite a few fakes. The reason I feel some blame should be placed on them, is because as has been said, this is the digital age. Information moves fast, some of these victims have not known a world without the idea of cellphones being everywhere. When news keeps popping up, more and more about Celeb photo leaks, and you are a celebrity, pay attention, you could be next. Now I get that they may have simply been unaware of iCloud having all their shit, and if that's all there is to it, that sucks, however if they knew they were putting their stuff up on the internet, what have we always said? Once it's on the internet, you can't get rid of it, it stays on the internet. It doesn't matter how "secure" the server, by being on the internet, or in the "cloud" your information has now become that much more vulnerable, and this is NOT Amazon with your credit card information, or Sony, or any store, this is a folder on the internet we're talking about. And the weird "thing" the U.S. has with celebrities, you need to be extra careful. If you're not, then please accept the situation, hope the person who hacked into your information gets found and prosecuted, and hope tomorrow is a better day.

The hacker, is at fault, don't think I don't think they are. They found a way to get something that was not theirs, something that was a depiction of someone else, something that was meant to be an intimate moment, and released that to the public without the celebrities' permission. That's not okay. And I looked at those pictures, and that's not okay on my end, I admit that.

When Kirsten Dunst posts a twitter message calling out iCloud for not being secure enough with her pictures, even though I think she should be a little more careful where she lets data like that move to, I feel for her, I feel bad, she didn't deserve this, none of them did. They could, should, take more precautions though, we are talking about some bits of data, this is not rape, this is not them being mugged, we are talking about what data you allow on the internet. The cloud, the internet of all damn places.

Anyways, I'm tired that it's "Jennifer Lawrence", I'm tired that "consent" is the word used most often, I'm tired that it's either the victims fault or it's the hacker and the pervs who saw the pictures faults, I'm tired that it is some how unacceptable to state the simple fact that these celeb leaks keep happening, I'm tired that no one seems to care about all the non-celebrities this must happen to, I'm tired of this with us or against us attitude surrounding so many things, I'm tired that people cannot seem to grasp that Jennifer Lawrence was not the only one and by shining such a huge spotlight on her like that you not only amplify the fact that her pictures were leaked you also unintentionally shrug away the other celebs whose pictures were also leaked, I'm tired that it seems so prominent an idea that the US damn near has a straight up fetish that is simply nudity and yet when we act that way it comes as a surprise - not saying we shouldn't try to change or overcome it - just stopped being so shocked that it happens sometimes, I'm tired that no one believes there weren't any penises in these pictures, I'm tired the idea becomes "so what if she takes a picture of her breasts!?" when there were close ups between some of these ladies legs and even penetration, also of note Reddit just raised some nice cash for some cancer research I think it was prostate because of this.

 

[lapan]

I personally wouldn't save those kinds of pictures on a cloud save, but that's just me

 

[carnex]

I hear "victim blaming" all the time, and this is perfect example where that phrase is used so wrong it's sad.

Victim blaming is blaming victim for something happening to them that they had no influence on.

Exploration of causes and possibilities of prevention is rubbing shoulders but the line is clear. There is no blaming, just flat out statements.

If I was to say that Jeniffer Lawrence caused or enabled or helped etc violation of her privacy leak of those pictures by third party by taking them you would be right that I was blaming the victim of a crime.

On the other hand if I say that taking pictures of that nature is risky and potentially dangerous for ones public image so that people, including victims of that crime, should be more careful and thoughtful about their action I'm not blaming the victim. I'm exploring the events and drawing what I see as helpful conclusions.

There is a big difference between these two.

Person can put itself in increased risk of something perfectly voluntary and obliviously. It does not affect the crime what so ever, but not stating the obvious risk in also not right. Not right to the future victims of the same crime.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Am I the only one who remembers that massive movement in public schools and media where we were told as teenagers to not take pics of ourselves and upload them places because people might get their hands on them, especially with phones? Or that personal information could be leaked if you're too open about your private life on Facebook? People taking nude pictures of themselves isn't the issue because everyone does that, but posting and saving them in places where they can be accessed by hackers is. If you're going to save nude photos, a cloud or a external save space of any kind is the worst place to do it. You may as well stick them on a adult forum.

No one, unless if they're exhibitions or something, asks or wants to have their images shared everywhere. That is a given and should be respected. However the MOMENT you put your personal information and private images on the internet be it in a information cloud or something else, people can and will find some way to access and use it for whatever reason. Now the blame goes squarely on the company for keeping that information private in the first place and the people who got their hands on the images. Jennifer however, like everyone else on the internet, should and needs to show more foresight when it comes to personal information. If this were some random guy that has his photos pasted on the internet, no one would care because it happens all the time; TJ or the Amazing Atheist had that happen to him a few months back and no one cared. Same with Dylan Sprouse and all the other male celebrities that have had their images hacked and shared on the internet. Her status as a celebrity, female or otherwise, doesn't make her immune to the darker regions of online because this sort of thing happens to almost anyone that have taken pictures of themselves; just look at the adult regions of Tumblr or 4chan. I don't think all the nude pictures on either site were posted with the owners' consent.

The issue lies in both poor internet security and bad decisions, not people taking nude photos.

 

[carnex]

If you want something safe, don't keep it in your house. I can easily break in and steal it and then you'd only have yoursef to blame. That's all there is to it.

So thinking ahead and taking precautionary measures is bad? Most people don't go around carrying all their money with them. It's still bad and against the law to pickpocket but it's common sense not to do that since it's easier to pickpocket ant to break into a bank for example.

You know what's also a common sense? Not holding personal items in public places even if they are behind the key. Keys get stolen.

 

[carnex]

If you want something safe, don't keep it in your house. I can easily break in and steal it and then you'd only have yoursef to blame. That's all there is to it.

So thinking ahead and taking precautionary measures is bad?

I didn't say it was bad. Straw man.

Most people don't go around crying all their money with them. It's still bad and against the law to pickpocket but it's common sense not to do that since it's easier to pickpocket ant to break into a bank for example.

It's easy to steal a credit card. You don't have one of them, do you?

You know what's also a common sense? Not holding personal items in public places even if they are behind the key. Keys get stolen.

I guess that means you've never parked a car in a public place before. Cars get stolen, right?

Now who's strawmaning here? And yes, what you are pointing out constantly is that people would not have to take measures of precaution. And while it's a nice goal to have, it's not gonna happen. People are good but also people are bad and some will take any opportunity that swings their way.

P.S. my car have 3 step activation. I can't afford another right now so I made sure its bloody hard to relieve me of my property.

 

[J Tyran]

The whole "victim blaming" argument is beginning to aggravate me, not in this case specifically but in general. In an ideal world people would never be victims of anything but we don't live in that world and people do have to take some responsibility for the level of risk they expose themselves too, in the ideal world people should never be burgled for example.

People that are burgled are victims, some arsehole decided to enter someones property and steal/trash their stuff. Yet what do you do when you leave your house? You make sure its secure, you make sure the windows are shut and locked and you lock your doors. Security concious people may even have an alarm and/or CCTV. Either way you have the responsibility to look after yourself and your home, if someone goes out to work all day and leaves a ground floor window open and some arsehole notices and gets in its not their fault because arseholes shouldn't be burgling houses but they have to accept some level of responsibility for not looking after themselves as well as they could have.

People are dicks, there are people in the world that want to take or destroy your stuff, your liberty or dignity. They want to humiliate people, they want to advance themselves at the expense of others. Other people want to forcibly take what they want sexually from another, others want to act out sick desires.

There are even some that want to take someones life.

Thats the world we live in, no people shouldn't be victims. No-one should ever get assaulted, no-one should ever be raped. Houses shouldn't get broken into, cars shouldn't be stolen and people shouldn't be victims of identity theft. Vengeful Ex's shouldn't distribute revenge porn and people shouldn't be bullied so relentlessly that suicide seems to be the only escape.

As much as we want to we cannot live in a world where none of this happens, all we can do is minimise the risks of becoming a victim and sort out the people that commit these crimes. Taking responsibility for the level of risks we can control is not the same blaming someone for becoming a victim, when people try to shut down the discussion by throwing down "your victim blaming" are doing a terrible disservice and maybe even putting people at risk by trying to silence what could be good advice for looking out for yourself.

Not sure who Jennifer Lawrence is but if someone distributed naked pictures of her thats terrible and I feel sorry for her, she should have the right to her own privacy and that includes having nude pictures taken. Was it prudent to take them? I cannot answer that, I feel that she should have been able to have them taken and never have to worry but in these days of celebrity exposure its become a common thing over the last decade or so. The digital age of being able to quickly copy and distribute images has made it worse, even if a celebrity has such pictures and the person they give them to completely honour that trust things can still happen.

Computers get hacked, phones lost/stolen and how many times have we seen tech/customer service invading peoples privacy by stealing data or images? You get incidents [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.393044.15871917] where staff at phone shops where not just transferring someones data from a customers old phone to the new one they copied it and stole images, anyone wanting to take pictures of themselves that might be compromising or revealing should consider these issues especially if they are digitally created/stored (which most photos are now).