What can be done to improve the JRPG?

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

With an increasingly smaller amount of Japanese Devs making good games. SE flopping badly with FFXV and the silencr towards B tier titles from professional journalists. The few rays of light such as nioh and Y0 shows how mediocre the industry has become. With as much respect as Japanese Idols on the internet, one must wonder what do JRPGs need to do to get better scores in this generation?

 

[CritialGaming]

Depends on what you mean by JRPG. Sure Nioh is technically an RPG but I wouldn't label it is a JRPG. It is more an action RPG than anything else, because the focus of the game is a very Dark Souls meets DMC style battle system. Something JRPG's don't have for the most part.

Final Fantasy XV wasn't a flop either in my eyes. Though everyone has their opinions on it. I thought FFXV was great, the combat system was interesting, and not boring, the story was great if a little disjointed in parts, and it had great characters.

The trouble is that the JRPG is evolving, and it isn't moving in a direction that people want which leads people to end up being disappointed. Final Fantasy for example, has always wanted to take the series into a more real-time-action based style, but technology limited them. So for a long time they settles on Active Time battle systems which most people feel in love with. Yet with 12 they moved into a more active based system, first they put in free movement, then they took that out for a more dynamic system in 13, then in 15 they did both.

Now look at something like I am Setsuna, a "traditional" jrpg to a tee, and yet it wasn't as well received as I'm sure they had hoped. It wasn't a bad game, but it ended up feeling like a budget Chrono Trigger without the character. Which leads me to this......

Good JRPG's aren't about the battle system, the mechanics, or even the story for the most part. They are RPG's about character. All the classic "amazing" jrpgs all had one thing in common, fantastic characters. Characters that you will remember long after you turn the game off. Final Fantasy 13 wasn't a bad game, but it had terrible characters, and as a result people hated it. FFXV doesn't have bad characters, in fact it's characters are fantastic which is why it has been so well received.

So to answer your original question. What can JRPG's do to improve. Make good characters. The gameplay doesn't have to blow us away, the characters do (look at Dragon Quest games for good examples).

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Jrpgs are amazingly awesome and need no improvement. As long as they don't try to westernize them or something in the hunt for a wider appeal there's no issue.


As someone who has played Persona 5, I can inform you that Jrpgs are at their best and have no issues. And yeah, p5 is classic turn based and stuff of course.


Also, FFXV sold the fastest out of any FF so I don't see how it is not doing well in any sense of "doing well" you want to use. It's nowhere near as good as persona and the actiony style it has is more like KH than FF but it still is a great game lol.


The Trails of Cold Steel series, Dragon Quest XI, God Wars, Utawarerumono and so on are all amazing recent/upcoming Jrpgs which lack nothing compared to western games and in fact surpass them in general.

 

[Cold Shiny]

The world has already received the perfect jrpg, Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii. Not only is it a perfect game, it makes all other jrpgs look like complete garbage.

In some ways, I kind of regret playing it, because now all jrps I play get compared to it.

If developers wish to improve their jrpgs, they must simply take a look at this masterpiece:

1. Insanely easy to use fast travel function

2. Quests are completed instantly, no returning to quest giver.

3. combat would have been great on its own, but then they added the futuresight mechanic and blew all other combat systems out of the water.

4. The most lovable party of any party based game. Well developed, humorous, bounce off each other well, just the right amount of them. Each one has a very clear purpose in gameplay and in story.

5. The game's romance actually makes sense and is weirdly realistic.

6. Even with dated graphics and the low power of the Wii, still manages to have more style and beauty than "AAA games".


I could go on and on and on, but yeah its perfect.

 

[Longview]

Copy Xenoblade?

 

[SlumlordThanatos]

JRPGs need to stop trying to copy anime in everything they do.

Part of the reason I cherished Persona 3 so much was because they made an effort to write characters who actually seemed like they were human, and they kept the anime over-emoting and characterization to a minimum. It was still there, but toned considerably back, especially when compared to other JRPGs, and even other games in the series, like Persona 4.

I want a compelling story, but also characters that I can relate to. It is very, very difficult to relate to anime characters, who tend to be caricatures of an archetype as opposed to fully fleshed-out characters.

They always seem to emulate the weaknesses that anime has, and ignore their strengths.

 

[WeepingAngels]

The trouble is that the JRPG is evolving, and it isn't moving in a direction that people want which leads people to end up being disappointed. Final Fantasy for example, has always wanted to take the series into a more real-time-action based style, but technology limited them.

I didn't know this. Do you a source?

So for a long time they settles on Active Time battle systems which most people feel in love with.

I doubt the reason they created ATB was because they wanted a real time battle system. They did make Secret of Mana thus proving they had the technology to get a more action-y battle system. In fact, ATB is slower in most cases. In purely turn based games like Dragon Quest or even Squares own Final Fantasy X, there is no waiting on bars to fill up and they are snappier.

Yet with 12 they moved into a more active based system, first they put in free movement, then they took that out for a more dynamic system in 13, then in 15 they did both.

The franchise was permanently affected by Final Fantasy XI.

Now look at something like I am Setsuna, a "traditional" jrpg to a tee, and yet it wasn't as well received as I'm sure they had hoped. It wasn't a bad game, but it ended up feeling like a budget Chrono Trigger without the character. Which leads me to this......
Good JRPG's aren't about the battle system, the mechanics, or even the story for the most part. They are RPG's about character. All the classic "amazing" jrpgs all had one thing in common, fantastic characters. Characters that you will remember long after you turn the game off. Final Fantasy 13 wasn't a bad game, but it had terrible characters, and as a result people hated it. FFXV doesn't have bad characters, in fact it's characters are fantastic which is why it has been so well received.

I am Setsuna tried to be Chrono Trigger and fell flat on its face because compared to Chrono Trigger, it didn't stack up favorably. If you are going to try and capitalize on Chrono Trigger, you need to make sure your game is atleast as good. Same thing happened to Blue Dragon which was referred to as the Spiritual Successor to Chrono Trigger. It wasn't even in the same league. As for why I am Setsuna didn't measure up to Chrono Trigger, that had little to do with Crono, Marle, Lucca and the rest of the gang. I remember thinking the setting was boring and that the progression system was more complicated than it needed to be. In Chrono Trigger, the tech system was superior as it didn't require crafting to get techs. Not sure why they thought it would be better to make techs needlessly complicated, I guess it's a trend lately, we see crafting in Zelda now too. To me, getting something good out of a chest outweighs crafting.

So to answer your original question. What can JRPG's do to improve. Make good characters. The gameplay doesn't have to blow us away, the characters do (look at Dragon Quest games for good examples).

I don't know what brings you back to Dragon Quest but it isn't that characters for me. It is in fact the grind and simplicity that I love with Dragon Quest. However, sometimes I am in the mood for a slightly more complex progression system. I have been playing Tales of Hearts R and building your Soma is fun but now when I try to go back and play Vesperia, the straight forward progression system isn't doing it for me. Battle/progression systems do matter, atleast to me. Don't make them stupidly complex or complex in ways that don't make sense. Truly though, I think the characters are liked because Chrono Trigger was amazing, from the setting, to the plot to the battle system, not the other way around. Chrono trigger is amazing but not because of the characters. If you had always known the characters of Chrono Trigger as Ryu, Nina, etc... with nothing else changed, you would still love Chrono Trigger.

 

[WeepingAngels]

JRPGs need to stop trying to copy anime in everything they do.

Part of the reason I cherished Persona 3 so much was because they made an effort to write characters who actually seemed like they were human, and they kept the anime over-emoting and characterization to a minimum. It was still there, but toned considerably back, especially when compared to other JRPGs, and even other games in the series, like Persona 4.

I want a compelling story, but also characters that I can relate to. It is very, very difficult to relate to anime characters, who tend to be caricatures of an archetype as opposed to fully fleshed-out characters.

They always seem to emulate the weaknesses that anime has, and ignore their strengths.

We are just seeing what Japanese developers always wanted to do I think but couldn't due to technical limits. Who's to say that Chrono Trigger made today wouldn't look more like a Tales of game and be equally long winded to the point of ruining the characters?

 

[CaitSeith]

I don't know from where you got that FF XV flopped. It scored positive in reviews in general, and the japanese PS4 version topped in sales on the japanese gaming charts. I usually hear positive things about the game, and very few of people with negative opinions regret or dissuade people from buying the game.

OT: I don't really know. Gameplay-wise, action-based combat seems to be the new trend in JRPGs, and it seems to work so far. On the narrative side, they have been more about the world and/or the characters than about the story. Probably they could step up more in the story aspect.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

You can begin by shortening it. And dropping any semblance of a Chosen One plot.

 

[09philj]

As long as active time battle never comes back, and the writing stays good, and the RPG mechanics have some depth, everything will be fine.

 

[WeepingAngels]

And dropping any semblance of a Chosen One plot.

As opposed to what? The strength you need to beat the final boss comes from where if you aren't the chosen one? Teamwork? Willpower? The power of love? It's all cheesy as hell and none of it is better than the other. The only reason I can learn Ultima is because.....I am in love with one of my team members?

 

[WeepingAngels]

As long as active time battle never comes back, and the writing stays good, and the RPG mechanics have some depth, everything will be fine.

Yeah ATB was a real bore and FF9 really just showed how slow ATB could be. FFX came after and showed how fast straight up turn based could be.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

As long as active time battle never comes back

Also this, and mostly this. Enough with the weird mix of action/turn-based ala Ni no Kuni.

 

[American Tanker]

*SNIP*

The ability to defeat the Great Enemy comes from grit, determination, indomitable will, working hard, training hard, and ultimately becoming just as powerful as the Enemy.

What prevents you from becoming just like the Enemy is your own sense of justice and righteousness, the fact that you're fighting for something beyond yourself.

Granted, I'm sure there's a way to make that cheesy as hell, but it sounds good to me.

Might be making it too stereotypically American, though.

 

[Naturally Sound]

SE isn't really good at handling their characters lately outside of anime tropes. You can count on one hand the number of female archetypes they constantly recycle put in the main cast. I'm pretty sure the FF team don't interact with many women.

FF15 really did feel like it was focused on the main cast through their banter on the road, because outside of them, the world and other characters did not bring as much of a spark you can find with the "bro-mance" you see from them. It also feels like...a dirty move to move any semblance of character development for Noctis' party to DLC. Stale franchises usually show their weakening state with weaker qualities than usual. FF15's fragmented story was a bad move for those seeking a full experience as old fans would probably expect from a FF game.

Hm, I hadn't had a lot of faith in JRPGs lately(ever since I grew out the constant anime tropes and archetypes over...actual good writing)and have been fairly ignorant of it growing with the fanbase or not. I do know there is a greater emphasis on fanservice in both the West and East, which is its own can-of-worms. Better VA roles and are more common. Granted, it does feel like writing-wise, that there is a cookie-cutter set of plots...or my observation and recognition is failing me.

Honestly? This cynic says that JRPGs are improving, it's just a rocky, unpredictable road at this point. If I were to truly want one thing from JRPGs it would be better characters that represent their roles well and artfully, without over-indulgence in cliches. I'm looking at you, antagonist number #1756 that never left Philosophy 101 and reread the same notes.

 

[WeepingAngels]

*SNIP*

The ability to defeat the Great Enemy comes from grit, determination, indomitable will, working hard, training hard, and ultimately becoming just as powerful as the Enemy.

What prevents you from becoming just like the Enemy is your own sense of justice and righteousness, the fact that you're fighting for something beyond yourself.

Granted, I'm sure there's a way to make that cheesy as hell, but it sounds good to me.

Might be making it too stereotypically American, though.

So the final boss is just a regular Joe who worked out alot and you (or anyone one else in the world) can defeat him if you eat your veggies and work out too? Sounds epic.

'Hey fellas, the 8 of us must come together to defeat the greatest threat this world has ever known, Iron Joe. Pretty sure his world ending magic comes from using creatine. It's the only explanation for all the worlds military to be useless against Joe. We have the power of love though and with enough level grinding, maybe I can learn Ultima which is better than a thousand nuclear bombs.'

'Hey love-sick party leader, if we can get stronger than all the worlds military, why don't more people do it? Why doesn't the military teach it's soldiers how to do it?'

'Uh, maybe I am the chosen o...no no we don't want that. I don't know then.'

Yeah, sounds epic.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Better writing.

JRPG writing hit it's stride in the 90s, maybe early 2000s. What's happening with writers is no different from what happens with western devs, the Japanese aren't an alien race, they can go from competent and brilliant to incompetent or crazy just like westerners do, maybe they just hit their stride back then.

The writing was better during the time of bad translations. I think that happened because the bad translations added to a mediocre Japanese script. It made the story seem more strange/alien than it was really intended. The anime heavy stuff may not have made it through the localization process. Well, that's what I think.

 

[American Tanker]

So the final boss is just a regular Joe who worked out alot and you (or anyone one else in the world) can defeat him if you eat your veggies and work out too? Sounds epic.

Ah, not quite.

The BBEG is just using the easy way of getting power. Say, simply buying it, or something. The PC and crew are doing it the hard way: tracking down ancient texts, or seeking out old masters, or something like that which will require them to put a lot of effort into gaining access to this power.

But the PC and crew are not "Chosen Ones", they just happened to be the only ones willing to stand up and fight. Or maybe, like the first Mass Effect, they were just collectively in the right place at the right time. Now, they're doing everything they can to track down the villain while using their adventures as a way to train up and learn how to use the ultimate power that will allow them to end the villain for good.