What did you think of Throne of Bhaal?

[endtherapture]

I'm recently replaying Baldur's Gate 2 (possibly the best RPG ever made) and coming up to the end of the base game and approaching the epic level expansion, Throne of Bhaal.

I like Baldur's Gate, a LOT, but I think Throne of Bhaal was a bit of a let down. It brings the game to new heights of difficulty and has you facing down multiple dragons, Drow armies, legions of giants, Demonic princes and elemental kings. However it loses a bit of the personality that the base game has in favour of mainly combat focused dungeon crawls. There's a few side quests, but most of the game is a straight up slog through enemy dungeons and strongholds until the final confrontation. There's less exploration of areas, less sidequesting in big cities and less optional areas, which is a shame.

The best part of the game is Chapter 8, set in a besieged City, which goes back to the tried-and-tested RPG formula of side questing around the city and the wilderness surrounding it, a few dungeons crawls and finding how to lift the spell of invulnerability of your enemy. The next chapter has a big hub area with not much to do beyond buy some potions before going on 2 extremely long dungeon crawls. The third and final chapter is one epic long battle, with extremely tough combat although it's more of an endurance test than anything.

One major point in favour of the game however, was the Watcher's Keep side-dungeon which is one of the best multi-level dungeons ever produced in a game. It's full of personality and challenge and was really good.

Overall I think that the conclusion to Baldur's Gate, with the epic Bhaalspawn war, should have had a larger and more expansive game more in line with BG2 than a combat and dungeon crawling focused expansion. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the game!

 

[LookingGlass]

AFter loving BG2 (and the first game) I was disappointed by Throne of Bhaal, pretty much for the similar reasons to what you've mentioned. It was stupidly slow-moving because it was just a big linear slog through lots of tough enemies. There was no momentum and no "I'll just do something else for a while" opportunities to break it up.

But damn, summoning Planetars and just watching them run around the map beating the living crap out of everything and constantly shouting "I shall prevail!" was worth the price of admission for me. I never got tired of that.

 

[Jandau]

The game needed more faffing about, to be honest. It's a matter of pacing - you need a good tempo of high intensity moments and slower, more relaxed moments. It's a great game, but it should have been expanded into Baldur's Gate 3, but as it was just an expansion, its size was limited and they tried to cram too much into it. Fighting multiple dragons and drow armies is all well and good, but loses a bit of impact when you do it back to back...

 

[endtherapture]

The game needed more faffing about, to be honest. It's a matter of pacing - you need a good tempo of high intensity moments and slower, more relaxed moments. It's a great game, but it should have been expanded into Baldur's Gate 3, but as it was just an expansion, its size was limited and they tried to cram too much into it. Fighting multiple dragons and drow armies is all well and good, but loses a bit of impact when you do it back to back...

Abigazal's dungeon was just extreme in that sense. Potentially three dragons fights back to back, plus summons etc. It was all a bit weary. You missed moments of investigating murders and the quieter moments than made Baldur's Gate 2 special.

 

[Anachronism]

I loved the first two games (in case my avatar didn't give that away), and I found Throne of Bhaal pretty disappointing. It's far too difficult and frustrating, and the story just isn't up to the standard of the series - it's painfully obvious right from the beginning that Melissan is evil. To echo the other sentiments in this thread, there's also a serious lack of side content, with the acknowledged exception of Watcher's Keep. Frankly, I enjoyed Watcher's Keep more than the main quest, and it is one of the best dungeons I've ever played through, but the story quest is still a let-down.

Abigazal's dungeon was just extreme in that sense. Potentially three dragons fights back to back, plus summons etc. It was all a bit weary. You missed moments of investigating murders and the quieter moments than made Baldur's Gate 2 special.

Draconis, in particular, can fuck right off. It's an absolutely wretched boss fight.

 

[endtherapture]

I loved the first two games (in case my avatar didn't give that away), and I found Throne of Bhaal pretty disappointing. It's far too difficult and frustrating, and the story just isn't up to the standard of the series - it's painfully obvious right from the beginning that Melissan is evil. To echo the other sentiments in this thread, there's also a serious lack of side content, with the acknowledged exception of Watcher's Keep. Frankly, I enjoyed Watcher's Keep more than the main quest, and it is one of the best dungeons I've ever played through, but the story quest is still a let-down.

Abigazal's dungeon was just extreme in that sense. Potentially three dragons fights back to back, plus summons etc. It was all a bit weary. You missed moments of investigating murders and the quieter moments than made Baldur's Gate 2 special.

Draconis, in particular, can fuck right off. It's an absolutely wretched boss fight.

Draconis was a ridiculous fight, especially considering that he was THE FIRST ENEMY YOU FACE IN THE DUNGEON.

I would fully support a remake of Throne of Bhaal more in the style of the main game. The Bhaalspawn war in Tethyr had the potential to be a brilliant game with a lot of different locations to explore. Act 1 was pretty well done with the siege of Saradush introducing you to the whole conflict but really, each Bhaalspawn needed a chapter of their own like Yaga-Shura had with the first chapter.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

I quite like RPGs, and I have have heard that Baldur's Gate II is generally considered the Half-Life of RPGs. And I saw it on sale during the steam sales for something like 50% off but didn't get it. So I'm just wondering, how badly did I cock that up?

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

For the most part I liked it, I particularly liked the new companion I got but I had problems with it. The villain wasn't bad but they were no Sarevok or Jon Irenicus. Some of the fights, Draconis in particular can fuck right off. Combat at times just got annoying. Also the way the Solar determines which ending you get is just stupid. Say that despite the conditions he was raised in Sarevok still made his own decisions? Evil! Say you don't care for the mother you never knew and tried to kill you and that Gorion was your true parent? Evil!

I liked the good god ending but the requirements for it were kind of silly. It's not just being a good person, it's being the exact kind of person with the exact responses the game expects.

 

[Xyebane]

I'm playing through BG with BiG world mod package at the moment. I really miss the infinity engine games. I agree that ToB wasn't the same experience as BG2, but i don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. It would be a bit strange for a demi-god to still be walking to different towns asking strangers if they have any chores (s)he could do for a bit of gold.

 

[Oroboros]

I thought Throne of Bhaal was too short and too linear.

Almost no sidequests, only one new party character, no branching questlines to speak of.

BG II gets rather linear some times, particularly towards the end, but nothing like ToB was.

It's really begging for a complete re-do, It's a shame WoTC would never allow that.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Odd, I guess I never broke it down to that extent. I do have a very slow approach to combat in BG, if shit starts to get real I GTFO and equip for the specific situation, so that is probably why it didn't seem to be all action from my perspective.

But everything tied together did make it far more hectic then before.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Yeah I was kinda disappointed in Throne of Bhaal, though I did like their decision to bring back Sarevok.

But as some have already mentioned, I guessed pretty much immediately who the big bad was, and they didn't hold a candle to Jon Irenicus in terms of coolness or motivations. The combat did feel like "Baldur's Gate Extreme!" at times, with insane amounts of ultra-powerful enemies thrown at you. And the plot was pretty lame: "here's these OTHER children of Bhaal, and you gotta go kill them!". It lacked any subtlety or tact, and no real character development.

Still, I won't deny that I still enjoyed it and had fun.

 

[Littaly]

It's definitely the weakest part of Baldur's Gate, which is a shame since it's kind of the climax of the entire thing.

The one thing I was most disappointed with was actually a story point.

Spoiler

Melissan betraying you could have been really good, but she was introduced to late in the story for it to be as impactful as it could have been. If she had been planted in the first game and been a part of the Bhaalspawn storyline from the beginning, it could have been a really epic conclusion.

Plus the whole twist was kind of given away by the fact that she is the only character in the series where you have a significant number of dialog options doubting her honesty

.

That said, It's still a good game, but after finishing it you kind of wish there had been more to it.

Also, writing this I kind of realize that I'm starting to forget a lot of things about Baldur's Gate, maybe it's time for a third re-play

 

[endtherapture]

Yeah I was kinda disappointed in Throne of Bhaal, though I did like their decision to bring back Sarevok.

But as some have already mentioned, I guessed pretty much immediately who the big bad was, and they didn't hold a candle to Jon Irenicus in terms of coolness or motivations. The combat did feel like "Baldur's Gate Extreme!" at times, with insane amounts of ultra-powerful enemies thrown at you. And the plot was pretty lame: "here's these OTHER children of Bhaal, and you gotta go kill them!". It lacked any subtlety or tact, and no real character development.

Still, I won't deny that I still enjoyed it and had fun.

I don't think the plot point of there being other children of Bhaal was bad at all. In the first game there's obviously Sarevok and yourself and Imoen all as Children of Bhaal. In Tradesmeet in the second game you also meet Vierkang, another teleporting Bhaalspawn. So the threads were there, it just should have just been built up in a better, more longer and traditional way than just waltzing into the homes of the 5 Bhaalspawn and murdering them and their combined armies.

 

[Augustine]

I think Throne of Baal was Icewind Dale-esque epilogue to the series, thereby sort of missing the point of what made the series good in the first place.
I don't think high level ADnD is all that interesting to begin with - I'd much prefer the whole expansion to have no combat at all, save for the final confrontation, maybe. Wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air?

 

[endtherapture]

I think Throne of Baal was Icewind Dale-esque epilogue to the series, thereby sort of missing the point of what made the series good in the first place.
I don't think high level ADnD is all that interesting to begin with - I'd much prefer the whole expansion to have no combat at all, save for the final confrontation, maybe. Wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air?

[/quote]

I really liked the high levels in BG. You get more spells to play with, fighters get actual abilities to use, high-level items with all their enchantments are so cool and it really opens up the style of play you can use. However the entire game just had too much combat. It missed thew downtime of walking around a town shopping, or exploring a forest or wilderness area. It didn't need to just be a series of combat heavy dungeon crawls.

 

[The Madman]

It's interesting, I remember an interview with one of Bioware's old lead devs where he stated one of his big regrets was Throne of Bhall not being made into a full game. Apparently there were plans for its story to be part of a grander Baldur's Gate 3 but those plans were cut short and the project instead became the expansion Throne of Bhall. That's why despite its massive scope and scale it also feels a lot more linear than the rest of the series has been, cut short for the sake of development time trying to fit everything into one expansion that wrapped up the series.

And as far as endings go it's alright. Not as good as BG2 of course and a bit more dungeon rompy than I'd have liked for a series that has always prided itself on being just as much about open worlds and expansive dialogue as it was about classic D&D dungeons, but it's satisfying enough. A few more quiet moments between epic dungeons, a bit more dialogue, a larger world that allowed a bit of exploration, those would have definitely improved Baldur's Gate's last chapter considerably.

Still, one thing I really like about Throne of Bhall is the feeling of power you get, especially if you're playing a character you've been playing since BG1's Candlekeep. You aren't just some random low level snot anymore, you're THE Bhallspawn, a near demigod level figure wandering the battlefields of Faerun. It really does well at building up the whole aspect of godliness that's been a theme of the series since the first game. That scene where the Drow lady, I forget her name, is panicking because you're attacking her fortress? Giving a "Send everything we've got at them, EVERYTHING!" style speech to her commanders? That's awesome. As was the idea a nation is sending an entire battalion of their best soldiers in an attempt to stop you out of fear what your growing power represents... Plus I like the super high-level D&D fighting, that's when you get to see the truly crazy stuff happening on the battlefield.

That stuff was great and the conclusion itself was good enough to leave me happy. Last bit of dialogue with all your companions, an epic showdown, epilogues for all your companions some of which can change based on your actions throughout the games, that was all well done. Not like so many other series that completely fall apart at the end, books movies and games alike.

ToB wasn't great, but it was good enough and I'm happy with that. At least it's not one of those series where I've got to add an '*Too bad the end sucks' addendum every time I talk about it.

Incidentally if you've never tried it before, there's a mod named 'Ascension' that was made by David Gaider himself and adds some interesting stuff to Throne of Bhall, including a lot of extra dialogue involving Imoen and her place in the whole 'last of the Bhallspawn' story. Don't think it's been ported to the Enhanced Editions yet, but I've played it on the original game and it's actually really good. Makes a few of the fights a bit more difficult as well which might frustrate some people who found ToB hard enough already, but definitely worth looking into if you haven't heard about it before.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Yeah I was kinda disappointed in Throne of Bhaal, though I did like their decision to bring back Sarevok.

But as some have already mentioned, I guessed pretty much immediately who the big bad was, and they didn't hold a candle to Jon Irenicus in terms of coolness or motivations. The combat did feel like "Baldur's Gate Extreme!" at times, with insane amounts of ultra-powerful enemies thrown at you. And the plot was pretty lame: "here's these OTHER children of Bhaal, and you gotta go kill them!". It lacked any subtlety or tact, and no real character development.

Still, I won't deny that I still enjoyed it and had fun.

I don't think the plot point of there being other children of Bhaal was bad at all. In the first game there's obviously Sarevok and yourself and Imoen all as Children of Bhaal. In Tradesmeet in the second game you also meet Vierkang, another teleporting Bhaalspawn. So the threads were there, it just should have just been built up in a better, more longer and traditional way than just waltzing into the homes of the 5 Bhaalspawn and murdering them and their combined armies.

It wasn't so much that there were other children of Bhaal, it was the fact that they were all basically cookie-cutter "I'm gonna rule the world!" villains. It felt like they really could have given more depth to the other Bhaal-spawn and explored their motivations for wanting to conquer, or presented dialogue options for you to convince them to join you, or abandon their way of doing things. In the way it was, it basically seemed like a cheap trick to create ready-made bosses for the game.

 

[The Madman]

It wasn't so much that there were other children of Bhaal, it was the fact that they were all basically cookie-cutter "I'm gonna rule the world!" villains. It felt like they really could have given more depth to the other Bhaal-spawn and explored their motivations for wanting to conquer, or presented dialogue options for you to convince them to join you, or abandon their way of doing things. In the way it was, it basically seemed like a cheap trick to create ready-made bosses for the game.

The Monk didn't want to take over the world and he was the most powerful of the Bhaalspawn as I recall. There were the Dragons, the Drow, the Giants, that one that dies at the start, and the Monk who it turns out was planning to use the others ambition to get them to kill the other Bhaalspawn before in the end turning on them, leaving him as the last of the Bhaalspawn so he could ensure the prophecy never comes to pass by in turn killing himself.

Unfortunately seeing as both your main character and Imoen are prominent Bhaalspawn, his plans didn't exactly mesh with your own. Still he definitely wasn't 'conquer the world' evil.

I remember him distinctly because he's the only boss in Baldur's Gate that's immune to Time Stop. Man was that an unpleasant surprise the first time I tried it on him!

 

[Condiments7]

It is disappointing if you're going in expecting a full fledged conclusion to the bhaal-spawn saga, because the plot merely consists of finishing off most of your powerful kin in your inevitable ascent. Its cool in comparison to your humble origins at candle-keep, but it feels like largely missed opportunity. The nature of the story tends to offer less room for side questing faffing, as you're are a demi-god both in gameplay and narrative terms, but some more non-linearity would have done the game some good.

As for combat? Despite being how truly ridiculous high level D&D gets, it was a lot of fun. Fights like Draconis, Sendai, and Melissan are incredibly epic fun fights, some of my favorite in my RPG career. Draconis especially forced me to change up my strategies and look deeper into the mechanics.

Draconis: Keep up your magic sight otherwise you're going to get butt-slapped around and he'll just munch on your back-line before they have a chance to respond in kind. Those invisible stalkers just suck too haha. Truly an epic and fun all around.
Sendai: Just all out crazy. Drow reinforcements flooding down the stairs while deal with the multiple doppelganger forms of Sendai before you finally slug it out at the end.
Melissan: If you're playing ascension this is an especially crazy fight.

Yes its a disappointment, but I'd gladly play it over most modern RPGs with combat focus.