What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[runic knight]

Not a right, a desire. But we DO have the right to ask for those desires to be fulfilled.

"The path to mediocrity is to follow the audience."

*Looks around at the quality of the average video game* I guess game companies already follow the audience then.

Define "average" for me, as even looking through just steam itself revealed the widest variety and amount of depth in the library of games available the world has ever known in the history of gaming.

Or perhaps, you merely mean the triple A part of the industry, to which your remark comes off as saying

*Looks around at the quality of the average movie* I guess movie companies already follow the audience then.

When talking about only hollywood blockbusters

yeah the biggest sellers are gonna repeat themselves but that is like trying to argue that popcorn action flix following the audience is representative of how all movies are.

 

[Ramzal]

Not a right, a desire. But we DO have the right to ask for those desires to be fulfilled.

No. You're mistaken.

No I'm not mistaken. Who's gonna stop us, you? Can you point out the line in the EULA that says I can't ask for more diversity, more variety, in my video game protagonists?

So I'm gonna keep asking. And I'm gonna keep mocking them every time I get yet another 30-ish white guy with brown hair, most likely closely cropped, and a five-o-clock shadow. And if you don't like it... Well, I suppose you can type angry words at me over the internet, if that makes you feel better.

You buy their products. You hold no shares in their company, you aren't a CEO and I'm not either. You are a customer and the relation ends there. Just because you buy something doesn't mean you have the rights to control what is in it. Gamers (sorry for sounding harsh here. not my intentions but I want to be straight forward here) need to get off their high horses and realize they aren't as important to the process of making games as they think they are. Just because you go to a movie doesn't mean you get a say in what is in it. Nor because you read a book do you get to decide who lives or dies in it. The audience itself doesn't even really know what it wants. And when the audience gets what it wants, it's not happy or satisfied.

"The path to mediocrity is to follow the audience."

We're not trying to tell them how to write their gorram stories, we just want them to put a little more thought into their protagonists, and the people whom you want to get into their shoes.

Seriously, calm the hell down. We are asking for only one thing. There is no slippery slope here. Why does this mess always happen when a minority decides it doesn't like being marginalized? You get a bunch of Chicken Littles running around saying it's the End of Western Civilization. I think the fact that it's usually not the same guys every time that keeps them from realizing how stupid it is.

For one you have the ability to request a change. Not the right. If you feel you have a right to demand a change, they have the right to ignore you (As they should) because you seem to want diversity in superficial sense. Just because a character's pigmentation is slightly darker doesn't make your experience any richer. You want diversity, I do too. I'm black/african american and I'd love to play as a Caucasian character---actually no I don't. I just like to have fun with games regardless of what avatar's gender/ethnicity. From personal experience I can promise you that your life/gaming experience wouldn't be enriched if Nathan Drake was black. It's also a tad bit offensive that you think things will somehow be different if the ethnicity is different.

Want to know how my day is any different from a Caucasian male's day? I usually have to wait a few more days to shave because my facial hair is kikiwi in comparison. Hairs curl more often which leads to razor bumps, which can lead to small infections minor infections. So I can't shave every other day. I'm all for more thought behind protagonists but it is honestly idiotic if anyone thinks a sudden race swap will change things in a character at all. The biggest strife I tend to deal with is informing people who don't live where the majority is Black that not all blacks fit the stereotype--but a lot of them do. Ask for deeper characters that have actual emotion, loss, joy, sorrow, triumph and personal conflict with their own actions.

Edge Maverick from Star Ocean: The Last hope fit all of that. But I guess that doesn't count because his skin didn't match my complexion. Keep going the way other people have been going and all you are going to get is race swaps with no character definition. Congrats to you, you get to play as a black guy and feel like a black guy in a digital sense. Too bad it would come at the cost of actual character development and depth just to take you out of your own race and gender for about 2 hours a day.

Just to be on point with you, Edge Maverick caused the destruction of an alternate reality of earth completely. Not scorch the earth destruction but rather "It blew the hell up" destruction. After the party got back to their own timeline everyone tried to tell him it wasn't his fault that 7 billion people died due to him handing over technology that the people of the time didn't understand. He (reasonably) told them to stop trying to make him feel better about it, and that if it weren't for his actions every man, woman, child, animal, plant, or any living organism wouldn't have had to die. For a good portion of the game there was zero after-battle celebrations from Edge. He'd just stand there after you won a fight and not say a word.

He'd also encourage the part to NOT make rash decisions that could affect people who didn't have the knowledge or technology that they had. He made a mistake, doubted himself and through it happened to become more responsible. But I guess because he wasn't the right ethnicity or gender that doesn't count at all. These characters exist already. You're just looking at the bigger, louder games that everyone knows there is poor character development and expression in and claiming it is a major problem with MOST games.

I'd promise you that for every one stale, cookie cutter character you can think up I can name at least 3 well developed characters that you've missed due to narrowing your search/listening to popular voices tell you what is good and what is bad.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Speaking as a stereotypical white nerd gamer, I just want male gamers to be decent human beings. That's basically it.

fortunately, most male gamers are already decent human beings. It's the very loud minority that's the problem.

 

[QuietlyListening]

I am sorry, but it still shaming people for their diversity. Talking about that IS racism.

I warned you that it would appear to be well intended, but equality is about bringing people to the same level, not knocking people down for their "privilege."

Talking about privilege =/= shaming people for their diversity. It's about acknowledging how people might see the world differently than you in light of specific challenges they've faced due to race/gender/sex/etc. No one is saying that "You are white and male, therefore bad." It's saying, "You're white and male and you should recognize that many of the structures in society favor you over people who are not white males."

Now, if you start actively defending those structures, or claiming that they don't exist because you in particular have experienced X hardship, then you're moving dangerously close to being an asshole.

Furthermore, privilege isn't a binary thing. You don't either "have privilege" or "don't have privilege." You can have certain types of privileges and face disadvantages in other areas. If you're a white male but you're not cis-gendered, you're still going to derive benefits from those former qualities, but they don't negate the challenges of the latter. And vice-versa. Being disadvantaged in one area doesn't mean you have no privileges at all. You just have fewer. Moreover, even having a privilege doesn't mean that everything is awesome all the time. There are lots of structures that are unfair to men as well. While they tend to occur in more specific and extreme circumstances (e.g. war, crime, etc), no one's saying that they aren't problems. They may just not be the problems that are under the topic of discussion at the moment.

It may be uncomfortable, but addressing how privileges work and what structures support them is the very first step into tearing down those structures and building an equal society. Equality doesn't mean ignoring the differences between people. It's about accepting those differences without prejudice. The really hard fact to accept about privilege, though, is that they're relative, and in order to build that equality, many of them will have to be lost. For instance, everyone should have the privilege to not be treated as an enemy by the police. However, getting rid of privilege in hiring practices means that as a white male, I will, as a matter of course, have to face stiffer competition in the job market. And yeah, I suppose that sucks for me. But to talk the talk you gotta walk the walk.

 

[Glen Compton]

I am sorry, but it still shaming people for their diversity. Talking about that IS racism.

I warned you that it would appear to be well intended, but equality is about bringing people to the same level, not knocking people down for their "privilege."

Talking about privilege =/= shaming people for their diversity. It's about acknowledging how people might see the world differently than you in light of specific challenges they've faced due to race/gender/sex/etc. No one is saying that "You are white and male, therefore bad." It's saying, "You're white and male and you should recognize that many of the structures in society favor you over people who are not white males."

Now, if you start actively defending those structures, or claiming that they don't exist because you in particular have experienced X hardship, then you're moving dangerously close to being an asshole.

Furthermore, privilege isn't a binary thing. You don't either "have privilege" or "don't have privilege." You can have certain types of privileges and face disadvantages in other areas. If you're a white male but you're not cis-gendered, you're still going to derive benefits from those former qualities, but they don't negate the challenges of the latter. And vice-versa. Being disadvantaged in one area doesn't mean you have no privileges at all. You just have fewer. Moreover, even having a privilege doesn't mean that everything is awesome all the time. There are lots of structures that are unfair to men as well. While they tend to occur in more specific and extreme circumstances (e.g. war, crime, etc), no one's saying that they aren't problems. They may just not be the problems that are under the topic of discussion at the moment.

It may be uncomfortable, but addressing how privileges work and what structures support them is the very first step into tearing down those structures and building an equal society. Equality doesn't mean ignoring the differences between people. It's about accepting those differences without prejudice. The really hard fact to accept about privilege, though, is that they're relative, and in order to build that equality, many of them will have to be lost. For instance, everyone should have the privilege to not be treated as an enemy by the police. However, getting rid of privilege in hiring practices means that as a white male, I will, as a matter of course, have to face stiffer competition in the job market. And yeah, I suppose that sucks for me. But to talk the talk you gotta walk the walk.

I see you are trying to make is sound better, but at its core you are still shaming people for aspects of themselves they have no control over.

when you say "You're white and male and you should recognize that many of the structures in society favor you over people who are not white males." That is both a racist and a sexist statement! It IS, no matter how you want to frame it as well intended...

You are making sweeping statements about someones experiences based on their sex and race. Couple that with all the hate and prejudice that is directed at white males for the actions of the 1% that is the ruling class, and you are perpetuating racism.

One last thing you really do not understand about equality, it isn't about tearing people and structures down to build an equal society. It is about making the CURRENT society equal by treating PEOPLE as equals. Outing people for being different is not the right path, and will only cause resistance. Everyone needs to be brought UP to the same level, not tearing down people that are perceived to have privilege.

By your idea, since attractive people have the most privilege (and they absolutely do, regardless of race), they should be made ugly, instead of treat everyone like they are beautiful.

 

[Thaluikhain]

when you say "You're white and male and you should recognize that many of the structures in society favor you over people who are not white males." That is both a racist and a sexist statement! It IS, no matter how you want to frame it as well intended...

It is not racist or sexist to say that racism and sexism happens to exist, and that it affects some groups more than others. Quietly ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away, unless the problem is defined as people discussing inequality.

 

[Glen Compton]

It is not racist or sexist to say that racism and sexism happens to exist, and that it affects some groups more than others.

Only if you say like you did in that quote.
But when you start outing people for their race/sex/gender and making generalizations about who they are and what their experiences in life are, you are perpetuating stereotypes and only further separating people. When the goal is to bring people together, it is best to not start by putting people into groups...

You only know your own experience in life, to make assumptions about anyone else is an act of hubris.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But when you start outing people for their race/sex/gender and making generalizations about who they are and what their experiences in life are, you are perpetuating stereotypes and only further separating people. When the goal is to bring people together, it is best to not start by putting people into groups...

People are being put in groups by our society already. That's the problem. Acknowledging that society does this is not the problem.

 

[Glen Compton]

People are being put in groups by our society already. That's the problem. Acknowledging that society does this is not the problem.

But doing it yourself would make you part of the problem.

 

[Thaluikhain]

People are being put in groups by our society already. That's the problem. Acknowledging that society does this is not the problem.

But doing it yourself would make you part of the problem.

It would, which is probably why you don't tend to hear people advocating that.

Again, acknowledging that society does this is not the same as doing this.

 

[Glen Compton]

It would, which is probably why you don't tend to hear people advocating that.

On the contrary I see people using it constantly as a weapon to invalidate others opposing opinions.

I also disagree that it adds anything useful to the conversation. It is just a targeted attack on specific demographics based on what is perceived as advantageous to an outsider.

Think about my example from earlier about attractive privileged vs unattractive prejudice. Focusing on the privileged of the attractive just seems like a petty attack, as opposed to focusing on the valid injustices faced by unattractive people.

To an outsider things that appear to be a privilege could very well be a burden to the person who has to carry them. Unless you are the person yourself, then you do not really understand what it is like.

You only know your own experience in life, to make assumptions about anyone else is an act of hubris.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Focusing on the privileged of the attractive just seems like a petty attack, as opposed to focusing on the valid injustices faced by unattractive people.

The two are inseparable. Society cannot deem one group to be lesser without deeming others to be greater, or vice versa.

Unless you are the person yourself, then you do not really understand what it is like.

Yes. That being the point.

 

[The Lunatic]

Treating people differently based on race, is usually considered racist, regardless of if the person is white, black, green or purple.

 

[Grampy_bone]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

So you tell people there is something inherently wrong with them, that they can never get rid off, that they need to apologize for, and they need to defer to other people based solely on this reason alone and not the merit of their arguments or the quality of their character? It's just a bunch of nonsense meant to exert control over you.

"SJW privilege" = Original Sin.

Seriously, this shit is bananas. When SJWs say people need to listen, what they mean is "accept whatever I say uncritically, don't question, don't argue." This is a fundamentally prejudiced belief system because it judges people by what they are, not who they are. "Oh because you have a made-up, self-diagnosed illness I'm not allowed to disagree with you?" Get bent. It's despicable and all free-thinking persons should reject it. SJW privilege and oppression are complete and utter nonsense.

This is what the original topic creator is upset about, being told that he needs to apologize simply for existing. It's horseshit and I am sick and tired of it. Don't give in to this stupid bullying and intimidation.

 

[Kuzz]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

So you tell people there is something inherently wrong with them, that they can never get rid off, that they need to apologize for, and they need to defer to other people based solely on this reason alone and not the merit of their arguments or the quality of their character? It's just a bunch of nonsense meant to exert control over you.

"SJW privilege" = Original Sin.

Seriously, this shit is bananas. When SJWs say people need to listen, what they mean is "accept whatever I say uncritically, don't question, don't argue." This is a fundamentally prejudiced belief system because it judges people by what they are, not who they are. "Oh because you have a made-up, self-diagnosed illness I'm not allowed to disagree with you?" Get bent. It's despicable and all free-thinking persons should reject it. SJW privilege and oppression are complete and utter nonsense.

This is what the original topic creator is upset about, being told that he needs to apologize simply for existing. It's horseshit and I am sick and tired of it. Don't give in to this stupid bullying and intimidation.

This explains SJW philosophy great:

http://www.plasticbrickautomaton.com/?id=101

I try my best to understand and respect different ideas and beliefs, but how can anyone believe in this SJW bs? There is no reasonable explanation. And they are so crazy, they think anyone who doesn't agree with them is on the wrong side of history! Seriously, wtf? They call people who don't agree with them worse than ISIS, but they are no less radical than ISIS.

 

[QuietlyListening]

I see you are trying to make is sound better, but at its core you are still shaming people for aspects of themselves they have no control over.

when you say "You're white and male and you should recognize that many of the structures in society favor you over people who are not white males." That is both a racist and a sexist statement! It IS, no matter how you want to frame it as well intended...

You are making sweeping statements about someones experiences based on their sex and race. Couple that with all the hate and prejudice that is directed at white males for the actions of the 1% that is the ruling class, and you are perpetuating racism.

One last thing you really do not understand about equality, it isn't about tearing people and structures down to build an equal society. It is about making the CURRENT society equal by treating PEOPLE as equals. Outing people for being different is not the right path, and will only cause resistance. Everyone needs to be brought UP to the same level, not tearing down people that are perceived to have privilege.

By your idea, since attractive people have the most privilege (and they absolutely do, regardless of race), they should be made ugly, instead of treat everyone like they are beautiful.

It's a statement of fact. It's not saying that you are inherently better or worse than other people, just that society treats you differently. You're not a bad person because of it, but whether you asked for it or not, privilege benefits you. Unless of course you do think that these structures don't exist. In which case, you're willfully ignorant.

And this isn't some harrison burgeron story where people should be penalized for their accidents of birth. Quite the opposite, in fact. I do want people treated like equals. But equality is more than explicit statements of law. And it's more than simply saying, "I view all people equally." If there are structures that don't treat people equally, those structures need to be identified and fixed.

To use your attractiveness example, because looks do play a large part in privilege...looks are often associated with competence, even though there is no reasoning behind this. For instance, fat people are seen as inherently less intelligent as their thin counterparts.

For an example of male privilege, look at the "boobs on the ground" jokes on Fox about the Israeli fighter pilot bombing ISIS. Just by being a woman, her competency is questioned and her contribution and skill is publicly undermined on a major news channel. Or take the recent news of Yelena Serova, the first female cosmonaut in 17 years. What questions does she get asked? How will she style her hair in zero g and how will she bond with her daughter while she's in space. This is largely due to the fact that society values women based on their appearance and mothering rather than their aptitude. And the guys making the jokes, and the people asking the questions don't think it's any big deal. It just comes naturally. But it is a big deal. Devaluing someone's bravery and skill just because of their gender is wrong, and it should be called out.

The insidious thing about privilege is that it isn't intentional. No one's being the bad guy actively oppressing people. But oppression happens all the same. Whether it's through malice or ignorance, people are not treated equally for all sorts of reasons. There are tons of examples for people's worth being devalued for all sorts of irrelevant reasons, often by people who don't think any better of it. But that's why the privilege conversation needs to happen. Because people should think better of it.


Edit: For the sake of a little levity, consider it another way. If the word privilege scares you, think of it as a bubble. Since we've brought up the attractiveness/unattractiveness privilege argument, 30 Rock puts it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15MwhPv3Ud4

For context: Jon Hamm's character is terrible at most things, but due to his attractive features he gets special treatment all the time. However, for him, it's not special. It's just the way life is.

 

[Glen Compton]

None of those were direct examples of privilege. You are projecting that onto the people who made those comments and questions, all of which were the actions of individuals, and not acting as agreed representatives of their race/gender/sex.

Maybe I just have a different view of how to approach equality, but I still don't think it is going to lead to anything positive by focusing on this concept of privilege. All it results in is overtly racist conversations under the guise of academia, and when people are attacking each other over the internet about it, it all looks like hate-speech.

I am sorry, but I don't think you are going to convince me it is okay to categorize people, even for the sake of equality. That feels like doublespeak to me.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off.

That's your first mistake. The worst that will happen is that they will be mildly creeped out and will probably forget about it by the end of the day. If they aren't in the mood to talk and you don't pick up on that then you'll probably just be a minor nuisance at worst. What's worse, never talking to people or mildly annoying a few.

Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover.

I've never seen that happen, ever. I think you're being paranoid

For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.

Rules that you think have been laid out. These are not people who control the world, they are people talking about stuff on the internet, they don't get to set the rules for all of humanity's social discourse.

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

It's different people with different opinions. You will never please them all. Instead of trying to please them all, consider the idea that they have to convince YOU that you should do what they want you to do. If you don't see any benefit to yourself then they have to convince you that you're a bad person if you don't do what they say.

I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

The only real rules are the law. There are social taboos too and if you don't know what those are the last people to trust are people with an agenda.

 

[WhiteNachos]

It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause.

...

And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

I can sum up this post as "if you think your rights are being violated, shut up, you don't know what you're talking about and you should just defer to whoever is claiming that what they're doing is for equality".

I've seen SJWs and feminists try to justify double standard and unequal treatment by saying one group is privileged so I'm not buying this. Also in general 'don't speak your disagreements or argue with us' never sits well.

 

[WhiteNachos]

I'm sorry I don't see exactly where I was privileged. Everyone hated me in school. I only got my first proper job a few months ago, and had to quit because of anxiety. I was born with aspergers syndrome, and my ineptitude socially and physically has long saw me exiled for not being a real man. Not denying that some people have it worse, but honestly, considering that through my entire life, I have crawled through a river of shit, only now to see one of the only two things that kept me tethered to sanity under threat, you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.

Privilege isn't a simple binary, it's a large number of them. There are a number of privileges you don't have, but that doesn't mean that you don't have any.

There's a line that gets tossed around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?", because a black man and a white woman both have a privilege over the other, while lacking the other privilege.

Can we stop with the male/female privilege nonsense. There are societal double standards that affect women so under this definition female privileges exist.

For instance a study says that women serve shorter sentences for the same crime than men. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

So now can we drop the us vs. them, privileged vs. oppressed BS?