What do you look for in an RPG?

Zera

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Creating an RPG from the ground up is hard. Since this is the most intellegent gaming site I know, I decided to ask this question here. Tell your favorite things in the RPGs you have all played, what are the basics, what are some of the generic ideas in them, and how can one improve the RPG formula

The game I would like to base this topic on would be like an Action/RPG, along the lines of Kingdom Hearts
 

OrenA

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Sep 14, 2007
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(Warning, rant ahead) Ok, so there are a lot of things I look for in an RPG. Seriously it?s a really long list. But the first and foremost of them is Dialog.

Let me say that again. Dialog. Seriously, this means more to me than plot, combat system, graphics, leveling, or anything else in that might be rolled into a game.

I really can't take a game seriously when it has the characters saying things that either don't make any sense in/out of context, or that are so monumentally stupid sounding that they make me think "Wait, what did he just say?" The problem is made even worse when you try to add voice acting into the mix. Seriously, I can voice act better than a lot of people they higher for these jobs, and I've been known to act myself right into a brick wall.

If there are any game developers reading this who can't think of anyone good to higher, then you would do well to look up Beau Billingslea, Steven Jay Blum, and Wendee Lee.

Anyway, a lot of dialog problems come from poor language translations, usually from Japanese to English (and I would imagine visa versa), see such Travesties as Grandia III and just about anything Tidus said in Final Fantasy X. RPGs are supposed to be at least partly about story, and its hard to take a story seriously when the characters suddenly break into laughter that sounds like Seagull cawing, or do that thing from animes where they will repeat the other characters name for no reason to illustrate that its a dramatic moment. I already knew that, there?s no reason to pound my face in with it (Interestingly enough, I feel the same way about laugh tracks).

If you want a lesson on how to do good Dialog, then Psyconaughts awaits. Seriously, it?s not that hard. Just have a conversation with your friend about whatever is happening in the game and write down what the two of you say. When I read/hear two or more characters talking, it shouldn?t be something I have to suspend my disbelief about. Lemme hit you with an example.

Brush is telling his girlfriend Stroke about how there?s an evil vampire out to get him. Stroke didn't know vampires existed until now
-Acceptable
Brush: Look, I know you're going to think I'm crazy, but that guy back there who threw that car at us wasn't exactly normal.

Stroke: Yeah, I figured that out about when he threw the car. What the hells going on?

Brush: You asked for it. He's a Vampire who wants to suck out all of my blood to stop some prophesy from being fulfilled.

Stroke: Oh come on, how stupid do you think I am?

Brush: ....

Stroke: Oh hell you're serious aren?t you?

-Unacceptable
Brush: I'm sorry Stroke my love, but that man who tried to murder me-

Stroke: Brush

Brush: was an unholy creature from beyond the grave and I must be ready to sacrifice life and soul to end his reign of terror

Stroke: Brush.

See, it?s not that hard. Just write Dialog that the characters might actually say if they were real people. Real people don't tend to use high society flowery language when they are in a dramatic crisis situation, or at least not in my experience.

Also, for the love of all things holy, don't do that thing where the character narrates his own actions for absolutely no reason. I mean, if he's explaining them to another character fine. But if he's just standing in a hall and for no reason says, "I'll have to break through," that gets really old really fast. Unless of course one of the character?s traits is that he talks to himself.

Ok, I'm done (rant over)
 

hammarus

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My advice to you would be to keep it as non-linear as possible. Replay-ablility, as the same character or different character can make a game incredibly more interesting. If you have to create a story driven game, try and emulate a game like Baldur's Gate I or II. These were both story driven, but allowed you to deviate from the most direct path to the end.
 

Andrew Armstrong

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A good, involving story is number 1 really. If your mechanics suck, but the story/setting/world/characters/dialogue are worthwhile, that keeps a player interested and playing, then playing the next and the next...
 

Snipafist

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I second the desire for strong story lines and dialog. It seems that the best way of doing this is to have a linear plot, however, which really chafes some players. Unfortunately, it's impossible to weave deep characters and a great big storyline together with a huge question mark as the overall goal of the RPG.

Combat and game mechanics should be simple enough to pick up, but involved enough that using them does not become tedious. Just as importantly, if not moreso, there should be limited "grinding" for XP and goods. If a player fights as often as possible while going from point A to point B, he should have sufficient resources in most regards. A little bit of grinding here and there never hurt anyone, but it should not be mandatory. Having to grind for a significant periods of time is boring, slows down the story, and loses you players. This is why FF12 is not going to be going down in history as a good RPG - the grinding requirements are insane, the storyline is boring, stupid, and does not progress very well, and the characters do not interact meaningfully with good dialog. It's a poor RPG. Sorry fanboys.
 

Godamnzilla

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How about a system that rates the difficulty of a dungeon and the difficulty of the final boss of said dungeon, then finds your partys average lvl and makes sure to throw enough enemys at you so that you will lvl up enough to have a standing chance against that boss. This way a person who grinds on the side can move through the dungeon with relitive ease as he/she will have fewer random incounters, whereas a person who wants to skip the side plot and head straight to the next dungeon would probably have a larger volume of enemies to wade through, but can be assured that since there are more enemies there is a higher chance of drops, and both players will hit the boss at about the same lvl and have the same chance to win. My point I guess is: don't give me a level disadvantage just because I don't care that there was a cat in the previous town that has a 2 hour side-quest attatched to saving it.

Another thing, If you must have side quests, make them something I care about doing in the context of the game. I am not, I repeat NOT, interested in trying to help: kids playing hide and seek, people with their chores, or pets! "Oh sir, I know you are trying to save the world/universe from utter decimation, but if you could just go to the next town and buy me a Fish-Hat or something to give to my ailing grandparent it would just be wonderous!" NO!
 

Goofonian

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This is probably not so related to the action/rpg your talking about, but I find in rpgs that I like having an idea of how strong enemies are.

I played through paper mario 2 on the gamecube and loved it to bits, then tried playing mario and luigi: superstar saga on the GBA because people had told me it was awesome and a very similar style of game. I didn't enjoy it nearly as much. Infact I still haven't even finished it.

I realised that it had to do with the battle system. In paper mario you could use one of your side characters to "tattle" an enemy, that would give you a rundown of their strengths and weaknesses and allow you to see their health meter. Mario and luigi had nothing of the sort, so instead of the battles being based around strategies of what attack to use on what enemy and when to use items, it was more about just using the strongest attack I had and hoping the enemy dies before I did. It was much less satisfying and nearly ruined the entire game for me.

No matter how good the characters or story in a game is, if the gameplay is unsatisfying there will be a lot of people that won't bother.
 

Bongo Bill

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I don't need a good story, as long as it is told well. If it's a simple fable, make every scene poignant. If it's a complex epic, really play up the emotions involved. Dialog, as OrenA says, is such a gigantic part of good storytelling that it can't be omitted. Voice acting needs to be there, too.

Give me things to do in the world, but don't force me to do them if they're not related to the story directly. There should be a reason why I'm doing this quest. Needing something to do while we wait for them to finish building the bridge is not a good reason. Going to find the saw so they can rebuild the bridge is an okay reason, but the quest better be short and sweet. Investigating the reason the bridge is out, because it's possibly connected to the villain, is a good reason.

If you have dungeons, interesting is good. You don't need a puzzle to be interesting. A bad puzzle can be worse than no puzzle at all. There's plenty to say about dungeon design - when to go with a maze, when to go with wide-open exploration, when just a corridor is acceptable, how to adjust the difficulty - and I'm not the one to say it. What I will say is that dungeon types need to be appropriate to the point in time they're encountered. A dungeon in a plot-heavy section of the current quest ought to be straightforward and quick, since the player will prefer to be thinking about what's happening, and wants to get to the next bit. A dungeon which later becomes a passage needs to have a way to get through quickly.

Speaking of dungeons, remember that most dungeons are tests of endurance. The encounters in there should be hard, and they should deplete the player's resources. If the player can subsist in a dungeon indefinitely (short of camping around outside the instant-heal spots, which is fine) then there's a good chance your dungeon needs to have harder encounters. If players can't handle the monsters, don't make them weaker - make the dungeon shorter, or give the player more frequent rest stops.

In the more linear games, difficulty that scales by geography should follow the order that the player's supposed to be able to arrive. If the player gets to an overwhelmingly hard area, it should be a clue that he shouldn't be there yet. This works on all but the very least linear games - difficulty should represent the barrier to travel wherever possible.

Different encounters should require different strategies.

There should be a reliable way to avoid encounters. If the player doesn't want that juicy, juicy experience, then that's his choice, and he'll pay for it by being underpowered when he gets where he wants to go. This does not mean that random encounters are automatically bad! I think if there's one thing Dragon Quest VIII proves, it's that random encounters still have a place in the modern RPG. However, you need to give the player a way to ignore them, and they should be infrequent enough that they're a part of the flow, rather than an interruption of it.

What I just said applies double if the player will ever do backtracking. And the player should always be able to backtrack when they get to the end. If something of more significance than a line of nonessential dialog can be permanently missed, that represents a flaw in your game. The only possible exception to this would be an easter egg.

I really like the trend of having the final boss not be the most difficult boss by far. I think we should see lots more of that. However, that doesn't mean the final boss should be a pushover if you haven't prepared for him.

I also like the trend that lets me start an encounter over if I lose in it, but there are some games where this isn't appropriate. It really depends what kind of dungeon it's happening in. If it's a plot encounter, then either have the plot branch there, or let me restart from the beginning of the encounter. If it's on the overworld or somewhere of little significance, let me die - I shouldn't have been out that far. If it's a dungeon, then it gets a little fuzzy, and can only hope that the developer considers the situation holistically.

Don't add more types of enemy if you can't distinguish them tactically from other types of enemy. Stronger versions of previous enemies are okay, but it's best to do something to indicate that, despite the different name, this guy fights in roughly the same way as the weaker ones, perhaps with a twist. Palette swaps used to be the way to do this, but there are others. Along the same lines, don't add abilities that don't have unique tactical values. Unexpected, hidden combinations of gameplay circumstances are a definite plus. Look at Chrono Trigger as an excellent example of how to do all of this right.

If the main character has a pre-determined personality, then act it out. Show me lines. Give the character a name so your voice actors don't have to leave a blank spot there. If the main character is a blank slate, let me decide all the nonessential details. If I'm going to role play, let me do it; if I'm not going to role play, then don't pretend like I can. Silent protagonists can be done right, but for the most part, if the player is choosing his own motivations for the actions that the plot demands, then the player should also be able to choose other things about the character - as much as possible without contradicting the railroad tracks.

And that's another thing! Railroading is fine! Really! I don't mind when a game tells me what to do, sometimes! Just know when it's acceptable to apply it.

Subtle tactical interactions are the one thing that makes turn-based combat truly sublime. A difference of one turn in how quickly I kill an enemy should mean something, and a single level up on the right character should make that difference. That really fine level of balance ensures not only that you feel the progression, and also means that you can fill the game with incremental changes without the player feeling like nothing is happening.

RPGs, for me, represent an opportunity to do subtler things with the storyline. Can we see more interesting takes on the usual violence than "slaughter a small army worth of monsters?" I'm not saying it is necessary or even desirable for a game to get rid of fighting altogether, but the way that RPGs tend to go for the really experimental settings represents a great opportunity, and we're throwing it away if you do the same things there that you do the same things in your fantasy land where the laws of physics turn upside down as we do in every other game (e.g. single-handedly, or as a small group, sending a legion of mooks to an early mass grave).
 

danimal1384

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usually an at times non linear story that initially is interesting and keeps you interested throughout the whole game is certainly the first thing. if the story sucks than why should you care? the characters need to have personality, and each have their own story that somehow ties in with the whole story. too often are there characters in a game who are just there because they thought the main character was cool and want to follow him/her around. also, its good to have on the non linear parts of the story, the ability to hear and flush out the stories of the other characters. good character design isn't a necessity, but its a definite plus. a fantastic world with its own history is also important. the actual fight system in the end is on the backburner.
 

aegis7

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A theme that resonates helps keep me enthralled. I thought FF VII and Okami were powerful because they both had environmentalist themes underneath their storylines.
 

Zera

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Thanks for your responses. This will all be helpful in the future. Keep them coming.
Oh a friend of mine had a good idea for replay value in my rpg. After you beat the main game you unlock a second quest. This quest will be like a different story within the main one but will be super generic. For example the main character will have a huge sword, have amnesia, and whos hometown is destroyed. Lets not for get his Childhood friend aka love interest white mage.
 

WafflesToo

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Rather than tell you, "THE ONE TRUE WAY TO CREATE AN RPG, ALL OTHERS SUCKETH!", I'm going to list a number of RPGs that I have played in my day and talk about what I liked about each one.

TACTICS OGRE:
For those on the non-linear story telling band wagon, this is IT. Non-linearity has never been done better. Don't talk to me about that steaming pile, Fable that pretended to be non-linear but ran on rails more tightly than AmTrack. In Tactics Ogre there are two, major decision moments in the game each of which radically alters the course of events. What makes these so great is the consequences of each flows as natually and properlay as if that is what you were intended to do all along. Seriously, how many "non-linear" games can boast that? Most wind up with eight "fake" endings that don't really make sense and the one you were supposed to get. But that's just the major plotline, there are litterally dozens of minor events throughout the game that change (sometimes fairly drastically) the course of the game based on whether a specific person died or left the party or not. Seriously, I wanna meet the guy that set up the mission and dialogue trees in the slim hopes that some of his genius might rub-off on me just by standing in his presence.
The thing I did NOT like about this game is the character leveling process. The way it works is that each job-type you can have a character hold adds differing amounts to different stats (the function of some is not all that clear) each level they earn while they have the job. While this may sound interesting, what it turns into is staring at a spreadsheet trying to figure out how many levels a person needs to hold a specific job for before switching to a different job. Which is not nearly as much fun as it sounds like (and it really doesn't even sound like much fun). The scale of most of the battles is a little large for my tastes as well, although its a matter of preference I suppose. To be honest it never bothered me until I played Final Fantasy Tactics.

FINAL FANTASY TACTICS:
The character leveling system is the coolest thing EVER. It is also one of the things I liked about Guild Wars (which had something similar). The way the leveling process works is by earning new skills in one of four categories for each job-class. A character can then use two active skill lists, one reaction skill, one support skill, and one move skill FROM ANY JOB THAT THEY HAVE PREVIOUSLY HELD. Which means that you can mix and match these skills from different classes to customize each character allowing for a huge number of combinations and thus tactics and strategies. It is awsome, simply awsome. I also liked the scale that the battles are fought in. Compared to Tactics Ogre you are on a map half as big, with half as many units, that can move half as far. It makes each move you make mean a lot more and you have to be more careful.
Things I hated about FFT is that too many of the "end-of-chapter" battles depend more on luck than skill to pull off, the system menu is poorly designed, the incidences of "Engrish" are more annoying than amusing (Tactics Ogre was made three years before FFT and the translations were a lot better). For those who find it important, the plot is on rails. I mean absolute rails (but at least the rest stops are well marked and the stalls are clean). There is no decisions you can make in the entire game that will have any impact on the plot at all. It is basically the antithisis of what Tactics Ogre was. But, it's not an important issue for some people so it is a minor gripe.

X-COM: ENEMY UNKNOWN
The very idea of duking it out with some uber-powerful alien menace mano-e-mano makes me giddy for some reason. While the game itself is billed as a "Turn-based, tactical shooter" it does have some RPG elements, and besides, that doesn't mean that some of the ideas couldn't be carried over. The storyline is relatively linear, however simply progressing through the plotline was one of the games puzzles (and not of the, "dur, what do I do next" sort, more of the, "what piece am I missing, what should my objectives for the next few missions be"). And that is part of the charm, you the player could set your own mission objecttives to advance the plotline. At one point I needed to capture a live alien of a specific kind. I finally got my opportunity to do so and instead of playing the mission out I grabbed what I needed and forsook the civillians I was SUPPOSED to be protecting to firey, plasma-ey death. Hooray for the good guys :)
Things that didn't work so well however were the RPG elements (and it got even worse in X-COM: Terror from the Deep). While it had character developement and RPG elements to it, they were so weakly done and so poorly implemented to make them seem non-existant. Furthermore the game did not really differentiate between "incapacitated" and "dead". Did I meantion that a single-hit is usually enough to incapaci... I mean kill you? Not to mention the numbers of weapons of friggin mass-destruction available. Which meant that you could have spent HOURS on some dumb-ass getting his stats up and this retard would get snuffed in a second because the pathfinder hiccupped and left him standing on top of a live grenade.

FINAL FANTASY: ETERNAL NOVA, FINAL FANTASY VI
Things in the FF franchise kinda went on a down-hill slide after VII (and I still maintain that the series peaked in FF VI, but that's just me). FF:EN is a fan-made game using RPG Maker and is absolutely a gem. That it's a fan-made game and turned out as good as it did is even more impressive. The thing that I loved most about Eternal Nova is the story and how well it was told. The best thing about it were that the character motivations were beleivable (even, or perhaps especially because the villain's goals were something that I could understand). Perhaps that is why I enjoyed FF VI and FFVII was the character motivations were (mostly) something I could understand (although I always thought Setzer's pre-apocalyptic motivations for joining your party were weak). In Eternal Nova, our physical reality causes the god-like creature Paradorn great pain and duress, so she spends the game trying to rid herself of our existance. In FF VII, Sephiroth was fighting to retake the planet for "his people" (that he would become a god-like being in the process was just icing on the cake). Even Kefka's derranged philosiphy was something that, however flawed, you could get ("why do people build when they know it is only going to be ultimately destroyed? Why do people cling to life when they know they are only going to die?") Nothing kills a storyline faster than a bunch of characters that are behaving in a non-sensicle wacked-out fashion (and no, "because they are evil" is not a character motivation). The same needs to go for organizations as for characters. The Finel Police are a fine example of this. They beleive that they are holding the moral high-ground when they go around repressing dissidents and arresting who they are being told are criminals. That they usually wind up behaving as badly or worse never seems to register on them.
Things that Eternal Nova did poorly are largely due to inexperience (but that didn't alleiviate any of the frustration at the time). One of the worst examples is a "timed-maze" puzzle that pretty much requires you to either have a copy of the map on-hand or to die and reload constantly until you memorize enough of the level to make it through. That the "GAME OVER" screen takes a long-time to get through and cannot be skipped is equally infuriating. I'm sorry, but level-memorization is not something I feel belongs in RPGs (heck, I can't stand them in platformers) and if you are going to have a timed-run through an area at least make things fair (FF VI did this right by forcing you to run through the map once before when you weren't timed so you at least had SOME idea of the right way to go when it was a flight for survival). The other area that Eternal Nova botched is that the openning cutscene takes FOREVER to play and there is no way to skip it or to speed it up. Really annoying when a mistake on the main menu costs the player about 15-minutes before he can go back to select the entry he REALLY wanted. Can't really think of any glaring flaws in FF VI (as it is perfect and all :p). Ok, here's one; I can not stand having to put the game on hold so I can wander around LOOKING for random encounters to level my characters up some more so I can be tough enough to beat the next encounter. I mean, it's like, "OMG! Hannibal's at the gates! We need to defeat his general immediately to disrupt his assault!" And then YOU spend the next THREE DAMN MONTHS wandering around on safari trying to get enough levels to actually beat the mother. I wish all despots hell-bent on world domination were this patient. And do I REALLY need to get into the "Clound-in-drag" sequence and in how many ways it should never have been included in the final game?

Well, that's all I've got on this. Hope it helped somebody out, later all

WafflesToo
 

Meophist

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Exploration.

A really underrated aspect of RPGs, but I like finding things on my own, getting to a town that I don't have to visit in the main quest(at least, not at that point). I get really annoyed at the forced linearity of many recent RPGs(Final Fantasy X, Star Ocean 3, etc), especially compared to what they were before.

Item Creation System.

This is one thing I really enjoyed in Star Ocean 2 and Dragon Quest VIII. Something that is both simple, but rewarding really adds to the games, I think.

Character Customization.

Just something to personalize my experience a bit. Could be as simple as Dragon Quest VIII's system or as complicated as Dragon Quest VII's. As long as there's something.

Characters.

Although I don't think script or story is as important as many other aspects of RPGs, I'll admit that good characters can make a bad game bearable and a good game memorable.

That's it for now.
 

marklodi

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Sep 26, 2007
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One thing is obvious, if these replies are any indication. Different people have different ideas about what makes an RPG worth playing to completion. I suppose that is the true challenge for gave developers: to make a game with a selection of game mechanics, depth of story and accompanying features to make the most people happy and want to PURCHASE the game. After all, regardless of what anyone thinks or says, most games are made to make money - preferably more than it cost to make, market and publish.

Some people like turn-based combat, while others prefer real-time. Some prefer random encounters while others prefer to see their enemies and have the option to avoid them. Some desire high-quality voice acting, while others want their dialogs limited to text boxes. Some crave the mathematical reward of tracking experience points, levels, hit and magic points, and a plethora of statistics ranging from strength to charm, while others yearn for a simplistic interface, without worrying about the difference between an adamantium and platinum sword.

And there are a hundred more examples. Now mix and match those, like trying to figure out the 4 digit password for an old 'Gold Box' game from TSR whose code wheel you've misplaced. And we wonder why game developers can't just create a game we'll enjoy.

What is wrong with these people?! Of course every one of us wants a hero whose gender is questionable until they start talking...er, no...until we hear their name...um...see the way they act?...damn.... Naturally we want a completely predictable storyline of orphaned protagonist who wants to rescue their missing parents/childhood friend/village sick from a mysterious alien disease, meet up with a rogue and their serious-but-mysterious-and-amazingly-strong-sidekick, then rescuing the princess who is destined to save the world but wait! It's really the main character who must make the ultimate sacrifice! Oh, ho - I didn't see that coming!

There is no perfect game. This RPG will appeal to one for its ideal combat system, while another will decry its lack of a serious plot. And that RPG will make one demand their money back from the local Game Insane, while the person who just left that same store with that same game is on their way to build a fanboy web site and claim the game is "the RPG of the Year. 10 out of 10!" - Gameblotch

And it is that diversity, that difference in opinion that makes playing every RPG like opening up a present at Christmas. Maybe its a new electronic gadget you've been drooling over for months.....

Or maybe it's a pair of purple socks.

-Mark
(with apologies to purple sock fans everywhere....)
 

Snipafist

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Sep 26, 2007
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A couple more thoughts from me on what not to do in an RPG, even if some of these sound (distressingly) common. I'm also echoing some of the comments above.

1) Make your characters have genders. We're all tired of the boys who look like girls or the boys who look super-femmy, etc. Furthermore, I for one am very tired of my band of adventurers looking more like a nursery school than a bunch of elite warriors. Please stop giving us children as main characters, and stop having your characters over age 30 referring to themselves as washed out old coots.
2) Make your characters have motivations. We're all tired of characters who tag along just because it seemed fun or they liked one of the other party members. Would you be willing to possibly be devoured by some horrific monsters because you had a crush on some idiot who likes wandering into danger? No, you wouldn't.
2a) Give your villains better personalities. Opposing the heroes because the villain is insane or just pure evil is getting very old, very fast. If we wanted to see some 2-dimensional cardboard cutout villain get defeated, we'd go watch re-runs of He-Man.
3) Stop having the party save the world. There's nothing wrong with saving the world, but maybe your final conflict could come down to something else? I think we're all getting a little tired of "for some reason all the world's militaries are incapable of defeating the villain, but you band of 3-5 warriors should surely do him in!"
4) Stop resorting to crazy ways to make a plot seem reasonable. I still cannot believe that FF12 featured the "evil twin brother" storyline. Good lord, that was horrible. We really like it when villains or heroes are clever and do something really insightful that didn't seem to immediately make sense. We like figuring things out like that and can stand being momentarily confused. But taking a mess of unanswered questions and tying them together stupidly is just insulting.
5) Stop giving us silent heroes. Either have them converse with the other party members so that we feel as though they have a personality or let us provide them with answers. It strains believability that an entire group of people would risk life and limb for a person who never speaks (Chrono Trigger, I'm looking at you, despite all your other awesomeness, this one makes no sense).
6) Stop with the puzzles. Most of us don't like them. Either they're too easy and are a waste of time, or they are too hard and aggravate us. Very few puzzles are of appropriate difficulty. If we wanted to play a puzzle game, we'd pick one up. Besides, if our characters are smart enough to talk and do other things without our input, why can't they solve puzzles for themselves?
7) Stop with the unbelievable dungeons. Anything constructed on that scale needs a purpose. It's hard to believe that some rich organization with ties to a subterranean engineering firm just decided to make a very pretty hole in the ground that monsters happened to move in to later. It's okay if the dungeon no longer serves its original purpose, but it should have one. Further, it should be navigable by normal means, unless it has obviously fallen into disrepair. If I need to blow a hole in the floor or destroy pieces of an otherwise spotless and well-upkept dungeon to progress through it, then somebody designed it quite stupidly.
 

Echolocating

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I really wanted to post my thoughts on this topic, but then something hit me...

"Of all the Ultima games, I like Ultima VIII: Pagan the most."

...yeah, I'd better just keep my mouth shut. ;-)
 

munineye

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Sep 27, 2007
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I'm going to attempt to be brief about this, as I am a long-time lurker but recent conscript due exclusively to this thread, I'll try my best.

RPGs need several things to be worthwhile, and while others have said it before, I'll say it again.

1-STORY. I don't mean plot. Plot can be fine but the dialogue can be worthless, or dialogue lovely but with no leg to stand on. Let's have a bit of realism or at the very least something resembling genre-writing. If I'm a medieval princess, I should not be asking "What's up?" unless I've recently had a head wound and something else is about to fall on me. If I'm a hero from the future, walking around with a sword is probably one of the reasons I survived, since everyone was falling over, laughing their butts off at my ridiculous hunk of metal while they shoulder their automatic rifles!

2-POSSIBILITIES. Sure, I loved playing FF7 as much as the next girl, but there was no replay value as there was with other games! Chrono Trigger, Dragon's Quest, Saga Frontier, these games all had something in common! Stories/games that have different endings depending on the choices you make (especially if those choices are not starkly evident) are far more entertaining than those with an entirely linear plot. And if you can choose not only what class or gender your character is, but race as well, and THAT has an effect on the outcome of the game, so much the better! It may be that we don't like the idea of classism, or racism, or sexism, or any other kind of prejudice, but they are real, and bringing them into a game only addresses their consequences and can really add to the feel and "reality" of the game.

3-ORIGINALITY. Remember this? Remember when Final Fantasy was on to something totally different and innovative that not only worked but looked awesome to boot? Remember when we were /surprised/ that Samus Aran was a girl? Where have all the good ideas gone to flounder and die whereas the stupid ideas just get recycled over and over and over-(keep that up for about ten years and you'll be where we are now). Is it just that all the good ideas get squashed, or is it that they're never even encouraged?

4-INPUT. Y'know what I miss most about adventure/rpg-type games? The input needed from the player to sort things out. People may complain about puzzle portions of games, but isn't that the fun part about Zelda? The idea behind the Monkey Island games was that you had to actually speak for the character, changing what happened in the story as you did so (or just providing amusing tangents). What happened to the possibility of there being more than one right answer? Of characters having options when they talk to people? (And I am not talking about Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, a game so broken that it takes gigs of mods to fix!)

5-GRAPHICS. No, not the way you may think. I actually don't really want to see every tiny little detail. Since I seem to be quite happy playing Diablo 2 and some of the hot games in my household are Yoshi's Story and Super Metroid, I think no one would be terribly offended if some game companies went: "Well, I think we'll put ridiculous amounts of money into our story and design board and let the graphic developers piddle around with a measly ten thousand dollars." (I don't know what kind of money people really put into these things, but I do know that writers love money, and if you give them enough, they're more than happy to write wonderful things for you.) Everyone complained about the cel-shaded graphics in LoZ: Wind Waker, but really, they just concentrated on making a good game rather than making it "pretty". Sega seems perfectly willing to crank out pretty (if mind-numbingly stupid) Sonic games, but they're paying for it with their reputation. I'm not saying the graphics /have/ to go back to Super Metroid, but simplicity is an often overlooked possibility.

That's it. That's all I'm asking for, on one hand. Let's just see if we can raise the intelligence level of our games, and maybe I'll take up a controller again. Until then, I'll be playing the Hellgate London Beta and Sims 2. :3
 

gameloftguy

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Sep 20, 2007
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I would say it involves, as several have noted, open ended dialog, plot, game play, and character creation. This is harder for single player games than for multi player but I think the game that really set the bar for open ended play was Arcanum. It would allow several varieties of expressing a point of view, as well as several different points of view to relate. Each of these could alter the series of dialog and events that followed and this really opened it up from a dialog standpoint. There was still a limit to what could be said but the variation increased exponentionally through the many different choices you would receive.

This was also apparent in plot. From what you said, and how you said it, to what you did was all important to the plot and storyline development. You also had the opportunity to break off the plot at any time or return to it later, with possible consequences for the delay. This is the sort of open ended play that came make a game shine.

Next is the character development. This too affected both dialog and plot. The intelligence and charisma of an individual would affect what could and would be said, as well as the profession and origin. What made games like Arcanum open ended was the lack of a class of character. You are not a warrior, wizard, healer, or whatever. You can pick and choose freely from a huge array of different skills and powers.

I think these make the games good from a single player perspective. They are also important in a multiplayer but more of the onus falls to the players themselves, especially with regard to dialog.

As far as letting two people chat and then write it down. That can work or can be more brutal than some of the stuff I've seen FF NPCs spout out.
 

jt2002tj

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Sep 7, 2007
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pedigree. trust bioware.

really, i feel like all the great rpgs i've played were made by the same couple companies. i need a great story where i feel like i'm making choices that matter. now that i think about it, this probably stems from loving "choose your own adventure" books as a kid. this is like the natural progression of that...
 

Hengst2404

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Aug 29, 2007
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Well, I think as many have said, having a solid story is important. Yet, more important for me, is that the story needs to have a structure that unfolds properly and has some type of meaning. I dont need every RPG game to be me saving the world, but I do need to have a meaningful goal. FF12 was one of the more understandable Final Fantasy games and I actually really enjoyed the way it progressed.

I look to the Baldur's Gate series and the Kotor games as other examples of how to properly tell a story. I like the ability to make choices, to feel like I am actually influencing the story, not just following it from battle to battle. Baldur's Gate, through its use of the whole romance side quests, allowed the game to evolve a little bit. It created characters that we ended up caring about and wanting to follow.

I think the dialogue is also important and I cringe when I think about the FFX speech and laughter, but I suppose the first time they have voices its going to be a bit rough, something they got better at for FF12.

As far as actual game mechanics, I am fine with turn based games and real time or real time hybrids, to the point that I don't prefer one type over another. The real issue for me is random encounters, the inability to skip cut scenes, grinding and poorly placed save spots.

Random encounters seem to be going the way of the do do bird, which makes me very happy, to the point that this is more a footnote than anything else.

I am seriously tired of games with long cut scenes that I am unable to skip, this hampers a game's replayability and in conjunction with poor save spots can also be a game killer. Nothing worse than dying at an end boss and then having to sit through some long scene before trying again.

Kotor was an excellent example of how to craft and RPG which doesn't require grinding. In Kotor, simply doing the main and side quests will have your character at a level which is about even with the action in the game. At no time was I forced to spend hours of time fighting monsters for experience or money. This to me is easily what makes me not complete an RPG. I spent 60+ hours on FF12, and that time wasn't spent questing so much as leveling my party. When I finished the game, everybody in my part was level 53, and this in part because everybody in the party had equipment which doubled their experience points.

The inability to save on demand is my primary gripe for nearly all modern RPGs that aren't PC based and the reason that Baldur's Gate and its sequel were so much fun for me. I should never have to spend time looking for a place to save the game, I am not a gamer who can games for hours on end every day, I sometimes only play from save spot to save spot, because I cannot take the chance that it will be 2 hours before the next save crystal. I am baffled that game designers still want to control when and where you can save your game. It doesn't make me a better player not being able to save, just hastens my frustration for a game I am playing.

The last topic I can think of is that we need to move past ridiculous ultimate weapon scenarios. The number one silly scenario was the the FFX where you have to dodge lightning like 200 times. Nobody discovered this by accident, unless there are some scary lifeless folks out there. How about the Zodiac Spear in FF12? "Don't" open 4 specific chests and its your to be found. Anybody else think this is dumb? I dont mind questing for items, but relying on random treasure drops and the like to find super weapons is driving me crazy. When I beat FF12, I beat the end boss with weapons bought from merchants and still had no trouble with him. I know some people feel that warm elite feeling inside when they spend 10 hours to get the sacred belly button lint of the gods that requires playing the game for sixty hours, only on even days of the week, but its not fun to this gamer.