What do you think makes a good game?

[jaeman]

you sir, are my new best friend. I have played both of the games that you have mentioned. FFVII, with its translation issues, started small, and grew big. But it wasn't in the stereotypical way where you are a farm boy and your village gets nuked by ancient evil. I didn't experience FFVII in its time (thank you PSN), but i can see how it truly turned the RPG world on its head. There is a lot of emotion in the story, how the overworld theme changes when Meteor is summoned, being apart of something you can't control, and the limited materia selection forced you to diversify, even though you came a long way to get those 12 slots. And i still listen to the soundtrack. Aside from the translation (and maybe the party split in the last level), there really isn't much wrong with that game. I gotta say, its too bad the pseudo-sequels didn't turn out the same way.

I am in the middle of mass effect 2. I certainly see where you are coming from with the everyone plays differently, and therefore gets a different experience. In most other WRPGs, its best to try to take a stealth route. in ME2, only one of the classes is true stealth. Im playing a vanguard, and there is definitely some skill and though involved, even after the gleeful laughter from slamming another dude with boitic charge. Correct use of your skills, party skills and positioning makes for a brilliant extension to what would have been a by the numbers third person shooter. the story and choice is what pushes it over the edge though. The choices that you can make is still ushered into a standard good/evil, but truly, why change what works perfectly? In my opinion though, Mass Effect 2 is living in its own shadow. Even though its universally better than its predecessor, its not as new. And i also feel the whole Cerberus thing is just a cheap rendition of a deep space mafia/street gang. But hey, im not done yet. give me some time.

if we're going to talk about deep character customization, there really aren't any other games that do this. Im only about 4 hours into Dragon Age, and i gave up on many of the classic RPGs like KOTOR and Baldur's Gate because i can't stand D&D, at least on a computer. My friend is trying to get me to play. Ive also never been graced by other games like Deus Ex. If you ask me, Mass Effect is the revolution, and other studios will have to catch up. Bethesda did great with Fallout 3, but their mindset on certain design aesthetics will have to change to compete. I even think Square Enix is in danger of being phased out. with Oblivion being a major influence on DQIX, and Mr. Wada's constant criticism of Japanese negativity toward Western designed games, their change could be coming too.

Great post, and i love the Avatar (heh, its a pun).

 

[Seth Smith]

I think this entire website is basically a continuously reshaped answer to that question.

 

[Thaius]

you sir, are my new best friend. I have played both of the games that you have mentioned. FFVII, with its translation issues, started small, and grew big. But it wasn't in the stereotypical way where you are a farm boy and your village gets nuked by ancient evil. I didn't experience FFVII in its time (thank you PSN), but i can see how it truly turned the RPG world on its head. There is a lot of emotion in the story, how the overworld theme changes when Meteor is summoned, being apart of something you can't control, and the limited materia selection forced you to diversify, even though you came a long way to get those 12 slots. And i still listen to the soundtrack. Aside from the translation (and maybe the party split in the last level), there really isn't much wrong with that game. I gotta say, its too bad the pseudo-sequels didn't turn out the same way.

I am in the middle of mass effect 2. I certainly see where you are coming from with the everyone plays differently, and therefore gets a different experience. In most other WRPGs, its best to try to take a stealth route. in ME2, only one of the classes is true stealth. Im playing a vanguard, and there is definitely some skill and though involved, even after the gleeful laughter from slamming another dude with boitic charge. Correct use of your skills, party skills and positioning makes for a brilliant extension to what would have been a by the numbers third person shooter. the story and choice is what pushes it over the edge though. The choices that you can make is still ushered into a standard good/evil, but truly, why change what works perfectly? In my opinion though, Mass Effect 2 is living in its own shadow. Even though its universally better than its predecessor, its not as new. And i also feel the whole Cerberus thing is just a cheap rendition of a deep space mafia/street gang. But hey, im not done yet. give me some time.

if we're going to talk about deep character customization, there really aren't any other games that do this. Im only about 4 hours into Dragon Age, and i gave up on many of the classic RPGs like KOTOR and Baldur's Gate because i can't stand D&D, at least on a computer. My friend is trying to get me to play. Ive also never been graced by other games like Deus Ex. If you ask me, Mass Effect is the revolution, and other studios will have to catch up. Bethesda did great with Fallout 3, but their mindset on certain design aesthetics will have to change to compete. I even think Square Enix is in danger of being phased out. with Oblivion being a major influence on DQIX, and Mr. Wada's constant criticism of Japanese negativity toward Western designed games, their change could be coming too.

Great post, and i love the Avatar (heh, its a pun).

Heh, for future reference, always quote the person you're responding to: that way it sends a message to them letting them know someone responded. I almost missed this response entirely. Also, on a similar topic, seeing as how you have few posts, welcome to The Escapist!

I actually only played FFVII a few years ago, so I had a similar experience. I was impressed with how the game could make me fall so in love with characters with blocks for hands. If you want a similarly impressive, if not more so, example of that, check out FFVI. It's pretty much tied with VII for my favorite Final Fantasy game. And yes, Uematsu's music is always amazing, and VII's is one of my favorites (though his work with Yasunori Mitsuda on the Chrono Trigger soundtrack is still my favorite music of all time).

I see what you're saying about Mass Effect 2 living in its own shadow, but I don't think it shows all that much. The ability to base your game off of your save from the previous game, thus keeping all your choices intact, is a brilliant concept that no other game to my knowledge has ever done. Beyond that, pretty much everything about the sequel is improved from the first, sometimes in slight ways and sometimes in huge ones. The one exception would be the removal of most RPG elements, though I admit I'd rather have that than need to deal with the terrible menu system from the first game. Ugh.

And Cerberus is much more than a random street gang. That's more like those three gangs that are always fighting. Cerberus is a powerful organization with the specific goal of furthering humanity's cause within the galactic hierarchy. They're in a much different position than some kind of mafia, and they're a lot more powerful.

Heh, an Avatar fan, are we? Best show ever.

 

[Arisato-kun]

It depends on the genre.

RPGs need a good story and likable characters. If a game so focused around story and character development doesn't have a good story or good characters then what's the point right? I'll cite Persona 3, Tales of the Abyss and Mass Effect as RPGs with good stories and characters. Two Worlds, Final Fantasy XII and Infinite Undiscovery are examples of terrible RPG stories and characters no one cares about.

With fighting games it's all about balance and an interesting cast. I want characters that are fun to look at, fun to play with and no characters that are unbalanced (aka cheap.) Blazblue, Guilty Gear and Tekken are perfect examples of balanced fighters with an interesting cast. Street Fighter IV suffers from samey movesets and balance issues (see Zangief's Spinning Lariats.) Virtua Fighter is a nice example of boring characters and a clunky fighting system.

 

[migo]

A thought I just had about good games is scope - we understand we're playing a game so restrictions are expected, but within the scope of the game there shouldn't be any restrictions and it should be believable, and unless it's Monkey Island no breaking of the fourth wall.

All the Mario games work perfectly because you're running and jumping, and pretty much anything you can think of that involves running and jumping you can do. Tetris you can move the blocks within the rules, and again do it any way you want. Final Fantasy 1 falls a bit short - it's an open world but you're still pixel bitching, and if you try something that seems logical at times nothing happens. Final Fantasy X on the other hand has a completely linear path (that works well with the story, it's the summoner's journey), and it really wouldn't make sense to stray from it if you buy in to the story at all. So good games keep the scope narrow and focused enough that you have complete freedom within that scope, rather than having a wide open scope in theory, but in practice seriously limiting you (the whole invisible wall problem).

 

[jaeman]

It depends on the genre.

I agree with the idea of what you said, but im going to pick at your examples. But don't worry, i believe its just a difference in gaming opinion between you and me. While i haven't been able to get to Persona 3 yet, and Tales of the Abyss is a bit out of my price range, Mass Effect had me floored with every plot twist, action and choice. But technically speaking, Mass Effect is a terrible game. Ive had many-a time when grenades flew through walls, sinking through landscape and getting stuck, unbalanced shooter mechanics, and a few full on crashes.

And yet, of your next three examples (while still only playing one of them), i spent a lot of time in FFXII, because i felt that the game was more fun than the story. I was one of the few people who truly enjoyed the game. Now that i look back on it, i think its how a dungeon crawler should be designed. Its true, the story and characters were stupid (except balthier), but the idea of pursuing greater riches in a (pretty) well designed system kept me going past one hundred hours.

...good games is scope - we understand we're playing a game so restrictions are expected, but within the scope of the game there shouldn't be any restrictions and it should be believable

Interesting point, you claim freedom is necessary, but you shouldn't be give enough freedom to distract you from the focus, else it wouldn't make sense. Mayhap this was the FFXII problem, there was more to do after the story, with hunts, grand crystal and hidden summons to unearth in the massive world. FFX had its completely linear path, but there was enough motivation to continue to follow. RPGs like Oblivion and Fallout 3 almost take a completely different approach, to the point where you can almost completely chuck the story out the window and do whatever the hell you want for a lifetime.

just a though migo, have you played any of the Metal Gear Solid games? or Sly Cooper, or Ratchet and Clank or Prince of Persia? i think you would like those games.

Heh, an Avatar fan, are we? Best show ever.

Definitely. Just finished watching the series last night. To be honest, that show was why i posted this thread. Like any good loser, i enjoyed the show enough to want to play a video game based off it. I did a quick review and video check, and they looked horrible, almost like a beat-em-up made for the N64. Going back to my dream of becoming a game designer/programmer for a third time, i got a great idea on how i would make a game based off it. But im not too confident in my own ideas, sure, the sound great to me, so i wanted to get some people to tell me what they thought made a good game. Got a lot of story/characters/giving-the-game-a-personality talk. Unfortunate, because my confidence in my storytelling skills is less than my game mechanism ideas. maybe ill share my ideas, see what people think, but not now. This is too big, and ive got a shiny new DQIX to go pick up.