What happened to Warhammer?

[Jandau]

Seriously, what happened to it? It's pretty much gone from gaming in any meaningful way as far as I can see...

Warhammer 40k, it's sci-fi cousin, is having a fairly good run. From the fairly solid early roots of Space Hulk, Final Liberation, Chaos Gate and Rites of War through the now-classic old Dawn of War games to the more recent Dawn of War 2 and its sequels as well as Space Marine. All in all, 40k is represented by fairly solid games in a variety of genres. There's Dark Millenium coming up (and I'm more optimistic since it was retooled into a regular RPG rather than an MMO) and Dawn of War 3 will be around eventually.

On the other hand, Warhammer Fantasy is pretty much dead in the water as far as video gaming goes. After the brilliant Shadow of the Horned Rat and the excellent Dark Omen, there hasn't been much, and none of it was particularly good. Mark of Chaos was mediocre at best and broken at worst (the loading times alone make that game borderline unplayable). Age of Reckoning is an MMO and a nearly dead one at that. Blood Bowl is a spoof and not very good as a game. All that's coming on the horizon is Wrath of Heroes, an Age of Reckoning MOBA spinoff, which just seems like an attempt to recycle resources from the near-dead MMO.

And I don't understand it. The IP has so much to work with. By this point there's so much backstory and lore, so many characters, you could do an RTS, a TBS, a Grand Strategy, an RPG, an Action Adventure, anything. You could do horror, dark and gritty, even black humor; high fantasy, low fantasy and everyting in between.

Now, I understand some people don't care for Warhammer. They don't like the setting, for any number of reasons. But a lot of people do like it and it would like to see actual games set in it.

Is there some reason why the IP sits unused? Would you like to see games set in the Warhammer world and what kind? Do you think there's any chance of it happening?

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well while Warhammer 40k can distinguish itself as space Tolkien fantasy Warhammer is just plain old Tolkien fantasy, and at this point everyone and their granny had a shot at that.

Putting out more games in that universe wouldn't attract much attention.

 

[Bostur]

I would love to see more Warhammer games myself. It is an excellent setting.

I think a few things went wrong. First of all Blizzard 'stole' it. Any game that attempts a Warhammer setting will have to fight the impression that it is a Warcraft/WoW clone. Those of us who know the Warhammer setting can tell the difference, but for new players it's not as easy. It can also be mistaken for a generic fantasy setting, WH40K is a little more unique in that sense.
For that reason any new Warhammer game should probably limit the use of greenskins, dwarves and elves. There is a lot of good stuff to be had elsewhere in the universe. But most video games make the mistake of using the most generic and typical stuff first.

Secondly I think GW have done themselves a disservice by allowing the setting to be used for some rather questionable projects. I don't really think they care much about video games unless there is some jink in it. WH40K has been more succesful recently so it makes sense to focus on that I suppose.

There's a ton of things that can be done. I would love to play an action RPG as a witch hunter.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Warhammer's setting has always been a problem, in that while it's quite good and detailed it's never really evolved in any meaningful way.

If you check back on 40k each decade, the aesthetic and "mood" has generally completely changed. In the 80s it was all very 2000AD or Heavy Metal (the magazine or the music genre, take your pick). It was silly and over the top and ridiculous, and it was basically anarchic space fantasy. Then it had a 90s phase, which is actually the one I identify with most, where they basically tried to play everything completely straight faced. Now they seem to be drifting back towards a kind of intermediate. It's less straight faced, more "awesome" and clearly has a wide-ranging and easily accessible appeal. While that shift might have alienated a few people (like me, I no longer play 40k largely because the setting no longer interests me) I think it's been a big part in helping 40k to break out into other media.

Warhammer has always been pretty much the same. It's a generic "dark fantasy" setting in pseudo-medieval Europe. While the design and artistic trends from 40k have generally ported over into fantasy (after all they generally had the same sculptors and artists) Warhammer has always been fairly consistently generic. It's never really broken out into being its own thing, aesthetically or in terms of storytelling.

The other problem, I guess, is that the rules are more complicated. Not as many people play Warhammer Fantasy as 40k, because it's more difficult to learn (and more expensive, unfortunately). Therefore, there's less of an instant market for that kind of game.

I think a Warhammer: Total War type thing might work, as I can forsee a good deal of overlap between Total War players and Warhammer players, but I think in order to really break out in a big way and become the kind of multimedia thing 40k is becoming, fantasy is going to have to change, and actually I'm not entirely sure I want that.

Blood Bowl is a spoof and not very good as a game.

Arrraarrghraaagh! *flips table*

Blood bowl is a brilliant game. It is probably the best game Games Workshop have ever produced, which is why it still has an extremely loyal and devoted following and still sees extensive tournament play over a decade after they stopped marketing it.

It's a different sort of game to the other GW games, because it's much more boardgame-like in its mechanics, but as a competitive boardgame rather than a wargame as such you really can't do much better.

 

[Jandau]

Well while Warhammer 40k can distinguish itself as space Tolkien fantasy Warhammer is just plain old Tolkien fantasy, and at this point everyone and their granny had a shot at that.

Putting out more games in that universe wouldn't attract much attention.

But that's the thing, it's not "plain old Tolkien fantasy". It takes many of the familiar fantasy tropes and twists them into a dark gothic setting. It's far more interesting and deep and original than most of today's fantasy settings. It beats Dragon Age's world out of the water and makes it look utterly boring, and that game was quite sucessful. Likewise with Elder Scrolls, which are waaay more "plain old fantasy" than Warhammer.

The fact that it's Fantasy isn't really the problem. Sure, some people don't like fantasy settings in general, but as far as such settings go, Warhammer is among the more unique ones, with plenty of depth and lore.

 

[Bostur]

Warhammer has always been pretty much the same. It's a generic "dark fantasy" setting in pseudo-medieval Europe. While the design and artistic trends from 40k have generally ported over into fantasy (after all they generally had the same sculptors and artists) Warhammer has always been fairly consistently generic. It's never really broken out into being its own thing, aesthetically or in terms of storytelling.

Maybe Warhammer is too many settings at once? It's Dark Fantasy, Gothic Horror, Steampunk, Renaissance, Fluffy Tolkien Fantasy soaked with Chaos on top. One could say that there is no Warhammer Fantasy setting, that it is everything. Even WH40K could be argued to be part of it. This works great for table-top inspiration but may cause problems for a video game that requires more focus.

I think the good parts are not about the overall setting, but in the details. The way the individual races and characters are depicted. There is a bunch of small touches that sets it apart from genericism. A game about Warhammer Elves, Dwarves and Orcs would fail, but I think a game with stories about some of the individuals would work better.

The good Warhammer games, Shadow of the Horned rat and Dark Omen had some of those stories. Warhammer Online was also fairly good at small stories - but unfortunately it was a rubbish game in general.

 

[kingthrall]

Seriously, what happened to it? It's pretty much gone from gaming in any meaningful way as far as I can see...

Warhammer 40k, it's sci-fi cousin, is having a fairly good run. From the fairly solid early roots of Space Hulk, Final Liberation, Chaos Gate and Rites of War through the now-classic old Dawn of War games to the more recent Dawn of War 2 and its sequels as well as Space Marine. All in all, 40k is represented by fairly solid games in a variety of genres. There's Dark Millenium coming up (and I'm more optimistic since it was retooled into a regular RPG rather than an MMO) and Dawn of War 3 will be around eventually.

On the other hand, Warhammer Fantasy is pretty much dead in the water as far as video gaming goes. After the brilliant Shadow of the Horned Rat and the excellent Dark Omen, there hasn't been much, and none of it was particularly good. Mark of Chaos was mediocre at best and broken at worst (the loading times alone make that game borderline unplayable). Age of Reckoning is an MMO and a nearly dead one at that. Blood Bowl is a spoof and not very good as a game. All that's coming on the horizon is Wrath of Heroes, an Age of Reckoning MOBA spinoff, which just seems like an attempt to recycle resources from the near-dead MMO.

And I don't understand it. The IP has so much to work with. By this point there's so much backstory and lore, so many characters, you could do an RTS, a TBS, a Grand Strategy, an RPG, an Action Adventure, anything. You could do horror, dark and gritty, even black humor; high fantasy, low fantasy and everything in between.

Now, I understand some people don't care for Warhammer. They don't like the setting, for any number of reasons. But a lot of people do like it and it would like to see actual games set in it.

Is there some reason why the IP sits unused? Would you like to see games set in the Warhammer world and what kind? Do you think there's any chance of it happening?

Id like to say as a huge generalisation which should have elements of truth that most older generation tabletop gamers prefer the fantasy while kiddies and 90's-2000+ generations prefer the 40k universe. Older generation tend to look down on computer games as the bane of tabletop gaming, you will find more 40k stuff being sold online at cheaper prices on ebay than some of the fantasy miniatures due to commiting to the hobby.

This in turn is why games workshop probably markets a 40k Universe instead of Fantasy due to computers being a more younger gen thing.

That said , if they did a MYTH (myth II soulblighter) version of warhammer with real time strategy and intense micro it would be a huge hit without a doubt.

 

[Steppin Razor]

They need to stop focussing on the generic fantasy crap and pull out the more unique aspects. Especially in the race department. Generic fantasy settings have a vast human empire, a small and arrogant elf faction that isolates itself from the world, dwarves that have been forced into their few remaining holds and numerous orcs and goblins running around causing problems for everybody.

So what do developers do when given a crack at the Warhammer Fantasy setting? They make games with the Empire, High Elves, Dwarfs and Orcs & Goblins. If they make a brilliant game, people will play and enjoy it. If they make something average to good, the sheer genericness of the whole thing will drag it down. They had Skaven, Beastmen, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings and the whole Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos factions to choose from, yet they always stick with the overly generic races and settings. People just grow tired of the same thing being presented to them over and over.

 

[Bertylicious]

Yeeeh yeeeh, Carstein fo' life fo' suwah.

*complicated hand gesture*

 

[Terminal Blue]

snip

Good points.

In fact, let me refine my original point.

Warhammer is generic not because it lacks interesting content or potential depth, but because it kind of set the standard for how we look at a lot of generic things. It pretty much invented the "greenskin" orcs we see in just about every generic fantasy setting (in Tolkien they were just ugly humanoids with black blood and weird racist overtones). It gave us the alcoholic, beard-obsessed dwarves with an inflated sense of personal honour which we now see everywhere. The problem is that, because the setting really hasn't ever changed much, these archetypes have become very familiar to the point where many people are kind of bored of them. They've been ripped off so many times that they're not particularly interesting.

This is why I think settings like Dragon Age look deeper to a casual observer even if they're actually super derivative, because they're superficially breaking from recurring ideas and archetypes laid down by Tolkien, CS Lewis, D&D and Warhammer.

 

[Shuguard]

The way i see it from the warhammer mmo, it was handled very poorly with mythic entertainment. Seriously they need to go F2P with it and advertise the hell out of it and do a lot of rebalancing of classes. I still don't see how they even charge a sub fee when the game last i checked was under 5000 people. So instead of actually doing anything they decide to make a MOBA. terrible decision imo.

Space marine was a fairly successful game, but i find that introducing someone to the 40k setting/series is a lot harder than say the fantasy or maybe halo, call of duty, heck even gears of war.

I've loved the dawn of war rts games and the total war version wasn't that bad.

I wish they could have still made the dark millennium an mmo rather than reducing it to a single player game with multiplayer. It might have done better.
Edit: Overall i don't thinkthe 40k and fantasy hasn't gotten proper treatment, it feels like it's always been a side project or something that never got enough love.

 

[Doclector]

Well while Warhammer 40k can distinguish itself as space Tolkien fantasy Warhammer is just plain old Tolkien fantasy, and at this point everyone and their granny had a shot at that.

Putting out more games in that universe wouldn't attract much attention.

Probably this. Despite people pointing out things that we've seen before in gaming that most of the time were actually probably inspired by 40K in the first place (Massive space armour, chainsaws/other weapon hybrids, etc) 40K is still, as an entire setting, fairly unique.

However, I'd really like a good WH game. I've heard of the setting, but I'm not sure where to start as far as fiction goes, and a game might serve as a good introduction into the world and its lore.

Also, if you really think about it, what recent games have really been all that tolkien in nature? Skyrim threw it askew with a nordic theme. Amular was almost too bright and colourful for it. To me, it's almost like WW2 games. I had enough of it during the early 2000s, but now, it's been considered "done to death" for so long that I kinda miss it.

and most importantly, how many games recently have offered playable dwarves? GODDAMMIT, I WANNA BE GIMLI.

...Salvador doesn't count!

 

[Frankster]

To the average person warhammer is just another fantasy setting with orcs and elves alas :/

40k is able to distinguish itself more from the pack due to it being so over the top, and you have symbolically powerful icons like space marines which can really sell the 40k brand to a new audience (such was the case with dawn of war series imo) which the warhammer universe lacks.

 

[Warachia]

Well while Warhammer 40k can distinguish itself as space Tolkien fantasy Warhammer is just plain old Tolkien fantasy, and at this point everyone and their granny had a shot at that.

Putting out more games in that universe wouldn't attract much attention.

Remember that part in Lord of the Rings where the rat people came out from underground and used canons to shoot lightning across the battlefield? Or that bit where the lizard people showed up with dinosaurs and giant humanoid crocodiles?

I blame the settings people keep choosing for it, as Steppin Razor said, out of every neat thing they can do, they always fall back to humans, dwarfs, orcs and elves, and they don't even use those races to their fullest, there are so many more factions in the game, use them!

 

[GoaThief]

I miss my Skaven horde, a game where I could relive those clan glory days would be most welcome.

 

[Louie Clark]

I haven't been really following non-40K Warhammer for awhile. The last time I had anything to do with it was the MMO, but I remember actually enjoying that.

This is kind of a sad thread. I know a lot of people think Warhammer is just standard boring fantasy, but it's the fun I had with friends, painting up the perfect army and all that.

I still have a lot of friends that are heavy into it, maybe I'll see if I can get back in to the grove, or if I've just moved on and don't enjoy it anymore.

 

[Rawne1980]

I'd love to see the Warhammer world get more games.

I'm a bigger fan of that than I am of 40k with my Skaven, Undead (still using old rules ... I can never get rid of Nagash ... NEVER) and Dwarf armies.

I also read a lot of the books based in the Warhammer world (who doesn't love a bit of Gotrek and Felix).

The problem is no-one knows what to do with it.

Warhammer Age of Reckoning could have been a massive MMO but it turned out far too average. Warhammer has a massive history and a hell of a lot of lore and characters to go off but WAR took advantage of none of it ... and it was partially Games Workshop's fault. They don't like their lore being "messed" with and have to approve every tiny thing that involves their canon and won't "bend" things much.

The one thing they could do is a game around some of the big history notes. Nagash and Sigmar, the Vampire wars even one of the great Chaos incursions.

What i'd like to see is a game about the Slayers. A fledgling Slayer taking his oath and getting his crest setting out on his voyage to find that great death.

 

[Jandau]

Is there some reason why the IP sits unused? Would you like to see games set in the Warhammer world and what kind? Do you think there's any chance of it happening?

the wrong people have the licenses and do wrong things at the wrong time.

just think starcraft is an unofficial game, it might help to ease the pain.

Not really, since Starcraft might, at best, be an unofficial game for Warhammer 40k, which as I mentioned has quite a few solid titles and more keep coming. The thread is about Warhammer Fantasy, which hasn't had a good game since Dark Omen...

But yes, it is indeed likely a matter of licensing...

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Warhammer has massive amounts of lore and history and drama and everything you want in making a compelling setting for a video game. It's just that these elements have never been implemented right. Take the MMO. It's Elves, Men, and Dwarves, versus Moar Elves, Orcs, and Moar humans. How original.

I played the game, and aside from the Orcs and Dwarves, the other races weren't really depicted faithfully. Instead of the brutally imperialistic High Elves we got in lore with their fatalistic determination and ages-old power that can wipe entire cities of the earth, we got another generic tree-hugging, harp-playing, frolicking carbon copy. Rather than the ubermesch, corrupt, yet ingenious Empire that's Renaissance Germany on steroids with Steampunk, it was just Stormwind Humans 2.0.

The awesome thing about Warhammer, is that it takes basic tropes and turns them inside out to great affect. It's almost like The Witcher in that respect in that it's not also original, but believable if you take a hard look at how the world works. It's a real shame that only a few good books and some passable games are all that exists outside the actual tabletop game.