What if Stats in RPG's also had negative effects?

[Mister K]

Just a question that appeared in my head a few day ago. What if a character with high Strength had a chance to literally crash the weapon they are wielding if they are not careful? What if a character with high Constitution was highly resistant to poison, chems... and healing potions? What if a character with high Charisma was so good at attracting others that they were a primary target for enemies in battles and thieves in towns?

What do you people think about this concept?
Also, are there any games that already had something like this? The only thing I can think of is Tech/Magic scale in Arcanum.

 

[DoPo]

Just a question that appeared in my head a few day ago. What if a character with high Strength had a chance to literally crash the weapon they are wielding if they are not careful? What if a character with high Constitution was highly resistant to poison, chems... and healing potions? What if a character with high Charisma was so good at attracting others that they were a primary target for enemies in battles and thieves in towns?

I really like that idea, actually. I prefer having some sort of double edged features in the games where specialisation has a further impact than just you choosing one thing over another.

In fact, I've been considering how to actually make a game where you can only advance in a field by "trading in" other stuff - vaguely like transferring points from Charisma to Strength in order to get stronger.

What do you people think about this concept?
Also, are there any games that already had something like this? The only thing I can think of is Tech/Magic scale in Arcanum.

The tech/magic of Arcanum was the first one that came to my mind, actually.

Other than that, I can't actually think of games that did this with stats - stuff like feats, powers, talents I've seen, but not core stats.

Divinity: Original Sin has some feats that give you an advantage and disadvantage, like - double action points but half the total health, or for mages - bonus intellect at the cost of some charisma. The downside isn't usually that bad, but it's there.

Path of Exile does have something more substantial in the face of Keystones. These are passive skills you can pick up but they usually majorly change how your character interacts with the game mechanics - for example, Chaos Innoculation gives your character total immunity to Chaos[footnote]think poison. this damage type is problematic because it bypasses all protection and resistance to it is a bit rare.[/footnote] but sets their total health to 1. There is a different keystone that removes any bonuses you get from your shield but it grants them to your summons, or another that makes your summons explode on death, however, they effectively have only 2/3 of their health. And so on. Usually you have to build your character around taking one Keystone. You can take more than one, but some choices do interfere with each other. It's easy to spot them, though.

Ziggurat is a first person roguelike, where with new levels, you get access to new skills, but only some of them are direct upgrades in some fashion - there are plenty that offer a downside as well, for example - you get less mana but mana crystals fill all mana pools[footnote]there are three pools - each filled up by a different colour mana crystal. Each weapon uses a different one. The actual mana behaves the same regardless, however, you might find yourself facing a boss and not having a lot of mana for one of your better weapons.[/footnote], or you move faster but have less total health, or you get more mana drops at the expense of health drops. And so on. There are a fair few that have both an advantage and disadvantage attached to them.

I can also remember that there was some sort of game where the stronger you are, the more likely is to break your weapons, but it might have been a tabletop RPG.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

The idea fascinates me and I really like to see it put into action, I just think it'd have to be really well put together to feel rewarding and I'm not sure there's a developer out there I trust with that kind of responsibility at the moment. There's also a question of whether it's worked directly into the stats with a counter stat or into talents and abilities with negative effects similar to the Traits in New Vegas.

It could be frustrating in a lot of ways, but at the same time it could completely change the way you play. Imagine if stats like Magic/Arcane Resistance also negated incoming healing from arcane sources as well as incoming magical damage. Or if magical armour of a more sinister nature resisted holy magic in exchange for their killer stats, so that Priests and Paladins could heal the wearer less effectively. Maybe that same set of armour converted incoming chaos/necrotic magic into healing. It could be hella fun for changing up the dynamic of play.

 

[sXeth]

Are you talking specifically that the high stat has a negative? 'cause most RPGs are setup in such a way that having one stat high often means another is low with the negatives presented thereof. It could work, but I think its more likely it would just fall into a trap where people just avoided the high stat as a soft cap.

Offhand, I can only kind of think of this in Dragons Dogma (the "size" stat when you made your character would give you higher carrying ability, but at the cost of reduced stamina) and Shadowrun (Magic and Cybernetics don't mix)

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The OP's question reminds me of how characters stats worked in Arkham Horror (a boardgame, but still). Arkham Horror had two stats conjoined (Stealth/Combat, for example) and you had a scale with 4 positions, where maxing out one skill minimized the other (so if I choose to get max combat, say 4, I would get minimal stealth, like 0). At the beginning of your round you could change the position of your sliders, with different characters getting different amount of slider moves. It created a system of trade offs where you had to consider if you intended to evade monsters or face them head on and plan ahead. It was a cool system, if somewhat clunky.

 

[DoPo]

It could be frustrating in a lot of ways, but at the same time it could completely change the way you play. Imagine if stats like Magic/Arcane Resistance also negated incoming healing from arcane sources as well as incoming magical damage. Or if magical armour of a more sinister nature resisted holy magic in exchange for their killer stats, so that Priests and Paladins could heal the wearer less effectively. Maybe that same set of armour converted incoming chaos/necrotic magic into healing. It could be hella fun for changing up the dynamic of play.

In Arcanum, there is a magic/technology stat. Well, more of a meter. Imagine a morality meter, only instead of good/evil, there you have magic/technology at each end. Note that it is NOT a morality meter by any shape or form, it's just how it works. The idea is that magic and technology don't work together and, in fact, close proximity makes them both act wacky - an industrial plant full of machinery would normally not allow mages in, because all that expensive and heavy equipment inside could go haywire and damage it. The opposite is also true - mages set up shops further away from tech centres because the influence of tech smothers magic and makes it fizzle.

So, that's where the magic/technology meter comes in - a lot of character start of neutral, which is fine - they can use handguns, for example, and they may be able to also throw a fireball. Or otherwise mix up the two, although it's not required. However, if a character gets points to get to either extreme, then things get interesting - character with lots of magic have more effective spells, however, there is also the fact that all spells are more effective on them. This includes both healing and harming spells, so mages are very vulnerable to other mages. They also cannot really use technology, even something relatively simple like a gun, as it simply wouldn't work in their hands. Characters with lots of technology points, however, essentially get magic resistance equal to their technology skill, to the cap of 100% which means that the best engineers are immune to magic. That includes beneficial magic, so if they are hurt, a healing spell would just fizzle out. So, tech characters have their own thing they use for healing - I think it was some sort of ointment or something. Of course, as that is technologically aligned, it would have reduced effect, if any, on mages.

 

[Mangod]

Just a question that appeared in my head a few day ago. What if a character with high Strength had a chance to literally crash the weapon they are wielding if they are not careful? What if a character with high Constitution was highly resistant to poison, chems... and healing potions? What if a character with high Charisma was so good at attracting others that they were a primary target for enemies in battles and thieves in towns?

What do you people think about this concept?
Also, are there any games that already had something like this? The only thing I can think of is Tech/Magic scale in Arcanum.

Great, now I'll be thinking about how this would work for the rest of the day...

Constitution 1/18 = Needs isolated, sterilized airbubble to avoid lethal sickness.
Constitution 18/18 = Body rejects everything; immune to potions, spells, cybernetic implants and any other things that could positively impact the body.
Constitution 19+/18 = Requires immune suppressants to get nutrients from food!

Intelligence 1/18 = Dumber than a bag of rocks.
Intelligence 18/18 = Speaks in Technobabble. Cannot communicate in simple terms ("It took me eight years to get these PHDs! I'll not dumb myself down just so the plebs won't have to think!").

Charisma 1/18 = Gets run out of the village with pitchforks and torches.
Charisma 18/18 = Cannot talk to people with getting the anime "Senpai noticed me! *faints*" reaction.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

*snip*

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was imagining. If you threw in Morality in the form of Alignments I think you could probably play with the system even more. But now the more I'm thinking of how you can twist and turn stats and attributes and talents and traits... it gets to the point of overcomplication which is maybe why we very rarely see it outside of a basic form, the Magic vs Tech thing for example. Despite the complications I'd like to see it implemented somewhere else on a wider scale. In universes with religions and true alignments it could really shake up party systems. After all if you're wielding the legendary soul sucking, mind fucking Stormbringer (AKA the Black Blade) then I can see how Paladins might struggle to heal you with their holy magics.

 

[Schtimpy]

Luck: Good AND Bad luck. High luck gives you a wild attack dmg and treasure varies between loot 5 levels up or a coin.

Intelligence: You go crazy faster (in a horror-ish game)

Strength: First thought is to make you slower, but that really only happens at high strength. Moderately strong people are still pretty quick, they can definitely move heavy things quicker. Second thought is to keep the strength level needed for "things" vague so you try riskier things. Are you strong enough to move the boulder? If you can't, you can't, but if you almost can, you pull a muscle.

Agility: Ditto strength. "Can you jump the gap, or do you go around?" becomes a really interesting question when you're not sure and monsters are coming.

Ego: Makes your character do stupid things, number is the average of all your other stats.

 

[9tailedflame]

It's a neat idea, especially from a character customization angle, but it also kinda draws you into a corner, as it means stat upgrades don't make you better, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just something to keep in mind. Or if you are going to put it in an RPG, you need to figure out a creative way to let the player character improve somehow to keep up with the world.

Darkest dungeon sortof played around with that idea, and implemented it in a pretty interesting way. When your character levels up, you randomly get either a positive perk, negative perk or mix thereof.

 

[DoPo]

In universes with religions and true alignments it could really shake up party systems. After all if you're wielding the legendary soul sucking, mind fucking Stormbringer (AKA the Black Blade) then I can see how Paladins might struggle to heal you with their holy magics.

It can work to put a really really creepy spin on priests. There was somebody who suggested adding extra roleplaying spin on D&D priests by having them trying to convert their party members. You know "Hey, pal, I'll heal you today, but will you come to the church of Pelor on Sunday?" Then escalate that by requiring more on more of party mates in exchange to your services.

Now imagine if clerics were required to do that. Or else there is no healing for the heathens. There can be harm, though - Pelor ain't opposed to smiting the heretics. Clerics turn from a mobile infirmary to cult leaders.

 

[K12]

I like the idea it when RPGs have debuffs as part of character creation or progression it really adds to the whole role-playing business. I think the easiest way of doing this is pairing two attributes on a scale so that +1 to one attribute means -1 to the other.

Strength-------------Dexterity. You can be a clumsy powerhouse or a weakling with surgical precision.

Speed----------------Wisdom. This sounds weird until you think of it in terms of age; young and quick vs. slow and experienced.

Perception-----------Endurance. You can be very aware of everything but be more sensitive or be clueless and able to shrug off anything.
(This reminds me of how allomancers use tin and pewter in the mistborn series)

Willpower (or whatever you call your magicalness stat)----------Charm. You can be great at magic but creep the shit out of everyone or be likeable but useless at magic.

Faith--------------Intelligence... (sorry couldn't resist that one)

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Just a question that appeared in my head a few day ago. What if a character with high Strength had a chance to literally crash the weapon they are wielding if they are not careful? What if a character with high Constitution was highly resistant to poison, chems... and healing potions? What if a character with high Charisma was so good at attracting others that they were a primary target for enemies in battles and thieves in towns?

Didn't Morrowind already do that? I seem to remember weapon degradtion was in some way proportional to your character's strength.

 

[DoPo]

Just a question that appeared in my head a few day ago. What if a character with high Strength had a chance to literally crash the weapon they are wielding if they are not careful? What if a character with high Constitution was highly resistant to poison, chems... and healing potions? What if a character with high Charisma was so good at attracting others that they were a primary target for enemies in battles and thieves in towns?

Didn't Morrowind already do that? I seem to remember weapon degradtion was in some way proportional to your character's strength.

Oh, right - I had forgotten about that. Yeah, that was a neat little side effect in Morrowind.

If you hacked your strength high enough, you'd destroy both your opponent and your weapon with a single hit

 

[Ihateregistering1]

It could have some interesting effects, but I think I would just as soon utilize traits, in the way Fallout does. The entire point of having one stat be high is that it means other stats have to be low, so it balances.

But in Fallout, traits give added flavor and personality while presenting a positive/negative aspect, so you might have one that lets you shoot guns faster, but at decreased accuracy. Or another that causes you to take less damage, but stimpaks heal you less.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

It could be frustrating in a lot of ways, but at the same time it could completely change the way you play. Imagine if stats like Magic/Arcane Resistance also negated incoming healing from arcane sources as well as incoming magical damage. Or if magical armour of a more sinister nature resisted holy magic in exchange for their killer stats, so that Priests and Paladins could heal the wearer less effectively. Maybe that same set of armour converted incoming chaos/necrotic magic into healing. It could be hella fun for changing up the dynamic of play.

In Arcanum, there is a magic/technology stat. Well, more of a meter. Imagine a morality meter, only instead of good/evil, there you have magic/technology at each end. Note that it is NOT a morality meter by any shape or form, it's just how it works. The idea is that magic and technology don't work together and, in fact, close proximity makes them both act wacky - an industrial plant full of machinery would normally not allow mages in, because all that expensive and heavy equipment inside could go haywire and damage it. The opposite is also true - mages set up shops further away from tech centres because the influence of tech smothers magic and makes it fizzle.

So, that's where the magic/technology meter comes in - a lot of character start of neutral, which is fine - they can use handguns, for example, and they may be able to also throw a fireball. Or otherwise mix up the two, although it's not required. However, if a character gets points to get to either extreme, then things get interesting - character with lots of magic have more effective spells, however, there is also the fact that all spells are more effective on them. This includes both healing and harming spells, so mages are very vulnerable to other mages. They also cannot really use technology, even something relatively simple like a gun, as it simply wouldn't work in their hands. Characters with lots of technology points, however, essentially get magic resistance equal to their technology skill, to the cap of 100% which means that the best engineers are immune to magic. That includes beneficial magic, so if they are hurt, a healing spell would just fizzle out. So, tech characters have their own thing they use for healing - I think it was some sort of ointment or something. Of course, as that is technologically aligned, it would have reduced effect, if any, on mages.

Oh I love arcanum so much. They need to make a new one now!

Also I think arcanum would be the perfect game for this kind of dual effect stating. Arcanums in depth character creation system was the best part of that game. You could spend hours in it just tweaking things.

It's a neat idea, especially from a character customization angle, but it also kinda draws you into a corner, as it means stat upgrades don't make you better, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just something to keep in mind. Or if you are going to put it in an RPG, you need to figure out a creative way to let the player character improve somehow to keep up with the world.

Darkest dungeon sortof played around with that idea, and implemented it in a pretty interesting way. When your character levels up, you randomly get either a positive perk, negative perk or mix thereof.

What you do is you link this stat system with a more standard skill or perk system. So you have your core attributes that are dual edge, but then your skills are more straight upgrades.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

Neat Idea in theory, but I fear that it will either:

a. become numbers game(like all RPG's. Though it may be my min/max tendencies.)

Which I have no problems with. All games have "the most optimal for x" build. Being out supercomputer and spreadsheet and I will guess one using Monte Carlo method.

b. (which is real problem) Restrict possible builds.

Let's use your Charisma example. Assuming you have high CHA character. You are good with people but people really like to hit you.

Well to live, I assume that you want to avoid the battle(unlikely in RPG) or get stats through the battle.(STR for armor, DEX for lucky people, CON for obvious reason)

So there we go, Either talky diplomat or really hittable tank - but I wouldn't make charismatic glass cannon sorceress because every archer in the battlefield would pin her down with arrows.

My question is, what does +/- system provide that current RPG stat system(stat restriction - progress marked by lack of sufficient stats) cannot? I think it takes variety out of the build without adding anything new.

 

[Slitzkin]

Perhaps a system that takes away everytime it gives?

Say upon leveling up, the player puts one point in strength but in doing so loses one point in agility or one point in intelligence to lose one point in charm. So on and so forth.

But I suppose the concept I've proposed just furthers min/maxing. Maybe the right balance has to be struck but I'm sure there is a way to present this sort of approach that subverts typical min/maxing.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Neat Idea in theory, but I fear that it will either:

a. become numbers game(like all RPG's. Though it may be my min/max tendencies.)

Which I have no problems with. All games have "the most optimal for x" build. Being out supercomputer and spreadsheet and I will guess one using Monte Carlo method.

b. (which is real problem) Restrict possible builds.

Let's use your Charisma example. Assuming you have high CHA character. You are good with people but people really like to hit you.

Well to live, I assume that you want to avoid the battle(unlikely in RPG) or get stats through the battle.(STR for armor, DEX for lucky people, CON for obvious reason)

So there we go, Either talky diplomat or really hittable tank - but I wouldn't make charismatic glass cannon sorceress because every archer in the battlefield would pin her down with arrows.

My question is, what does +/- system provide that current RPG stat system(stat restriction - progress marked by lack of sufficient stats) cannot? I think it takes variety out of the build without adding anything new.

My worry is that this sort of thing would result in it simply becoming much more practical for players to aim to be decent at everything rather than being actually good or even great at anything, specifically so their character's advancement can only result in positives while avoiding the negatives.

That said, I think I generally like this idea, as long there is eventually a way to compensate for or eliminate all of the negatives even if it's very late in the game, such as for the strength example having to forge stronger swords that resilient enough not to break at your current strength level, or say, increase in Constitution and Strength would eventually also require improvement in dexterity and agility at least a little to avoid being slowed down and made clumsier due your character's own muscle mass causing you to become more inflexible, as can happen in real life.