What is the appeal of a grim and realistic Superman?

DudeistBelieve

TellEmSteveDave.com
Sep 9, 2010
4,771
1
0
bartholen said:
Because of all the best known super heroes that have films made about them, Superman is probably the most fundamentally unrelatable. Batman may be a billionaire who has impossible ninja skills and technology, but he's still just a man whose parents were murdered. Peter Parker may have the strength of ten men and be surrounded by knockout babes everywhere he goes, but he still works at a newspaper for a cranky, abusive boss. Hulk has his anger issues, the X-Men are outsiders who have been cast out because of the way they are and so on. Hell, even Captain America, probably the second blandest goody-shoes character right after Superman has to deal with the fact that everyone he used to know is either dead or dying very soon and he doesn't recognize the world he's awakened in.

Superman has none of that. He's effectively indestructible, immortal, infinitely powerful, handsome, smart, can fly and always has the upper moral hand. He's not so much a character to relate to as an icon and an ideal to strive forward to, and havnig your character be like that from the outset doesn't really lend itself well to a traditional three-act story structure. Maybe that's why making him conflicted and have doubt was what they went with in Man of Steel. Granted, they could have done that less poe-facedly, but I still found the Superman in the movie interesting enough.
geeze it's kinda a criticism of our culture if Superman isn't relatable.

Supes' whole deal should be about how he keeps from letting his seemingly infinite power from corrupting him. Because that's Superman, he's a reverse incredible hulk. He constantly has to dial himself back, always being cautious, always having to save the civilians in harms way of his battles. Meanwhile, a good chunk of the population doesn't trust him (Including Batman).

If you were to pluck an idealistic Clark Kent into our world, that would be his struggle. Living in a world of sensational news media and all the other bullshit, why wouldn't he take over the world or lash out? Sure he has his moral compass but it would constantly be tested.But like all people, he not only feels obligated to do the right thing because of his gifts, he wants to.

I don't know if Man Of Steel touched on any of that or not, I haven't watched it.
 

DudeistBelieve

TellEmSteveDave.com
Sep 9, 2010
4,771
1
0
omega 616 said:
Zombie Badger said:
omega 616 said:
The fans want it 'cos dark and gritty is far more captivating than kiddies stuff.
Why is dark and gritty inherently more captivating?
Re-read that my last post and under where it says the word "captivating" is the explanation to that.

To me, it's like the hunger games and battle royale. Hunger games is the PG13 version, with the oh so romantic love triangle and the off screen deaths. Battle royale is the gritty, blood soaked version where 2 people die in the opening explanation of what is going on! Battle royale still has the love thing but it takes a back seat to the true story.

They are both films about young people (and 1 old person) gets put into a "only one walks away" scenario but one has almost no blood or tension and the other has a tone!
I've read both the book and the Manga of Battle Royale (not seen the movie) and while there is a lot of Gore, c'mon man. The whole thing is a love story between Shuya and Noriko. Everything else is them reacting to the horror of the situation, but even at the end Shogo even sacrifices himself so that those two could live cause they were in love. Born 2 Run plays, Credits. Total love story.
 

Eddie the head

New member
Feb 22, 2012
2,327
0
0
I didn't think Man Of Steel was bad because it was grim/dark. I just thought it was a dumb movie that was trying to make you think it's smart. Pacific Rim might be dumb but it's not trying to make me think it's profound. It's just not a good movie.
 

Chaos Isaac

New member
Jun 27, 2013
609
0
0
Because the fight scenes were pretty awesome, and I will always roll my eyes when Superman is like, "Yeah, i'm a super powered near-jesus with enemies who can level cities on accident and there is nearly no proper representation of collateral damage."

At least Man of Steel gave me that. Plus, you know, the awesome fight scenes.

...better then Godzilla.
 

Flammablezeus

New member
Dec 19, 2013
408
0
0
Well it was still pretty far from realistic. I liked it. It focused more on what makes Superman Superman instead of just "perfect guy, born perfect, does everything perfectly without having to learn in the first place" which a lot of writers seem to focus on. Heck, I can still enjoy works that do this because I know to enjoy things for what they are instead of what they aren't.

I'm also glad that the characters were true to themselves for the most part. If anything, Zod's motivations made a lot more sense in MoS than any other stories I've seen him in. It could have been so much worse and gone down the Dark Knight road and have every character become boring and so far removed from anything resembling what they should or could be.

In the end though, we've already had multiple adaptions of every major comic character in many formats and we will continue to do so. Nobody will agree with all of them, instead over time you'll learn to just focus on the ones you do like.
 

L. Declis

New member
Apr 19, 2012
861
0
0
I liked this movie. Yeah, I'll stand up and say it.

The classic Superman is boring and uninteresting to watch. I don't know how you'd make a good film around him. As a main character... there's no conflict. He auto-wins. Because he is Superman. He is pure, so no moral problems. He is as strong as Superman, so no physical problems. You can't stick him as a background character or supporting character; because he is Superman and he simply removes ALL drama by virtue of being so damn perfect. He isn't quite perfect? Well, he can just fly around the world, turn back time, and do it properly. Yawn. Boring, boring, boring.

Man of Steel? We see a man who is scared of who he is. His family are scared of him. His family is scared for him. They give him that fear. We see him fail early on. His father dies and he couldn't save him. THIS Superman isn't perfect. He isn't able to do everything. He has the powers of Superman, but his mind is human.

He has a temper. He is scared and sometimes hates humans. He worries for his mother. He feels guilty over his father. He can get close to no-one, because who knows what might happen. He is mocked, feared and hated in equal measure. Like a man who could do ANYTHING would be. He is hunted by the government. Like he WOULD be.

He decides to go against this fear, against this hatred against him, to become something better even if he feels that he may never be able to do it.

Being brave isn't not having fear or uncertainty. It's having it, shit-tons of it, and still deciding to do what is right.

It's easy to be good when everything is bright and shiny. It takes something more to be good in a world which hates you.

And at the very end, he betrays his ideal to never kill so he can uphold his ideal to protect life. He kills his kin so he can save some monkey who would probably turn him in given the chance. Because life is messy and shitty and you don't get to win every time, and you have to decide who to save. And this Superman lost his only connection to his home and his true family to save these useless, weak and corrupt monkeys. Why?

Because he can inspire them to be better. Because they raised him, and sheltered him, and looked after him.

Now, to me, that is a far more interesting tale of Superman than "He's perfect because he is."
 

Shoggoth2588

New member
Aug 31, 2009
10,250
0
0
I don't see the appeal in a gritty Superman either. It seems like the notion of making Superman gritty is missing the point of what Superman is supposed to be. Now if WB is going to surprise everybody by introducing an Infinite Crisis movie in the timeline, where actual Superman tells gritty Superman how horrible he is, then I might be down for that. I would also accept the premise of gritty Superman actually being a fake out, ie: what we actually watched was a Superboy Prime film.
 

zumbledum

New member
Nov 13, 2011
673
0
0
Zombie Badger said:
Since watching Man of Steel (which I wasn't a particular fan of) I've been wondering what exactly is the appeal of this attempt to make Superman dark and serious in the vein of the Nolan batman films. I'm not saying that a realistic Superman couldn't be good (that's what Dr. Manhattan was after all) but I've heard a lot of fans of it saying things like 'this is the Superman I've always wanted' and I don't quite understand what the advantages of Superman being realistic are?

well for me at least it turned him from a joke into a real character , just a matter of taste really. though superman was about the least important part of me liking the latest movie it had Antje Traue in it and ive been infatuated since pandorum ;) and zod was awesome.
 

M0rp43vs

Most Refined Escapist
Jul 4, 2008
2,249
0
0
I had written a long post that was massive even by my verbose standards, that explained why people enjoy grimdark and a character study of superman and why grim doesn't work with it but I'll cut it down.

People think dark=mature, immature people write stories in this vein resulting in immature dark stories.

The more optimistic and happy a work is, the more people want to darken it to justify them liking something so "immature" (See My little pony fanfics... or don't and not take a hit to SAN)

DC's live movies are getting it's ass kicked by it's marvel counterpart. Dark knight closed the huge gap so they tried it's dark formula with the next movie, Superman. This tone works with Batman because he is the dark that shuns the light, does what he needs to win, even if it isn't nice, because his foes aren't nicer, but not for his foil, Superman, the nice guy, the god on earth who brings himself down to our level because he wants to bring us to his.

I don't mind the fact that one's CHARACTER makes one more RELATABLE, but a good STORY can make a character more SYMPATHETIC. And I've always thought that supe's story is one of trying to be good so you can be an example of greatness in all trials. Its almost a religious allegory(regardless of your opinion of faith) rather more subtly done that the blatant Jesus imagery in MoS.

The appeal of a grimdark superman rather ironically speaks to one of the themes of superman itself:The tall poppy syndrome, rather more than the mega rich Batman who spends money on toys for himself How dare one man have all that power, and how dare he not abuse it to all hell like I would. He can't be good all the time and he must be secretly evil, his optimism a facade See my line about optimistic works above.

That said, I can see how a dark superman CAN work, I just don't think Man Of Steel did it well or did it to it's fullest. A dark superman would focus on his story of learning morality. Have him wonder WHY he can't just break loose and abuse his powers, have him doubt if he can save everyone all of the time, whether he would have the energy to and whether he would want to, with all the ingratitude he gets and all the evil he sees all the time.

But he knows that if it does, it would feel wrong because he had been taught that it is wrong, and through his growth he would be guided by his moral adopted family who will show him why he feels it feels wrong and why it is, even if they don't have all of the answers, they will try to teach him goodness rather than "Let the kids on the bus die" and "let me stupidly sacrifice myself even though you could do it without loss". A God on earth being cared for and under the power of two old but caring humans. It still keeps the Concept of superman, A powerful being trying to be good, but a dark superman story would focus on his doubts and whether it is all worth it.

And if you want to do a grimdark superman movie, honestly, I say adapt Irredeemable to the big screen. Because I'm sure that if Hollywood tries to make another darker superman movie, it'll end up like the story mode of Injustice... with more batman.

God, I cut it down and its still massive....
 

jademunky

New member
Mar 6, 2012
973
0
0
Leon Declis said:
I liked this movie. Yeah, I'll stand up and say it.

The classic Superman is boring and uninteresting to watch. I don't know how you'd make a good film around him. As a main character... there's no conflict. He auto-wins. Because he is Superman. He is pure, so no moral problems. He is as strong as Superman, so no physical problems. You can't stick him as a background character or supporting character; because he is Superman and he simply removes ALL drama by virtue of being so damn perfect. He isn't quite perfect? Well, he can just fly around the world, turn back time, and do it properly. Yawn. Boring, boring, boring.
Most of Superman's enemies (obviously not Lex Luthor) are stronger, or at least more "powerful" than he is.

The comics have done idealistic incarnations of superman plenty of times, with varying levels of success. If the movies are planning on a long-term character arc where superman slowly becomes MORE idealistic (possibly when he teams up with Batman) then I will take back quite a bit of criticism I had for the Man of Steel franchise.
 

silver wolf009

[[NULL]]
Jan 23, 2010
3,432
0
0
Zombie Badger said:
Since watching Man of Steel (which I wasn't a particular fan of) I've been wondering what exactly is the appeal of this attempt to make Superman dark and serious in the vein of the Nolan batman films. I'm not saying that a realistic Superman couldn't be good (that's what Dr. Manhattan was after all) but I've heard a lot of fans of it saying things like 'this is the Superman I've always wanted' and I don't quite understand what the advantages of Superman being realistic are?
Honestly, the appeal to me would be seeing a realistic portrayal of the impact of his powers. We're talking about a man who could punch through an asteroid with a well placed strike. I want to see the ground ripple, windows shatter, and the impact of it. Some of the best DC animated material has had a more vivid tactical impact to damage.

For example, Justice League Unlimited was great, but you only ever see gun and laserfire bounce off of the heroes. But in Justice League: Doom, there's a scene where Superman gets shot, and it draws blood.[footnote]Absolutely not a spoiler since it's part of the promotional material, and is really only set up anyway.[/footnote] The latter is better, because you get the feeling they're in a world more like ours when things work more like how they work here.
 

Veylon

New member
Aug 15, 2008
1,626
0
0
Scarim Coral said:
I mean Superman being the goody two shoe scout was what the society in the 60's.
You mean back with Vietnam, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Malcom X, and the Kennedy assassination? Are you 100% that was the goody two-shoes era? If anything, it sounds even darker and grittier than what we got now.

You must be thinking of some other decade of societal unity and harmony. Possibly the 30's. I'm pretty sure nothing divisive or problematic happened in that one.

Back to the main point, the appeal is that Batman movies make lots of money, so Superman had better copy whatever style they are in. And also 'dark and gritty' is a way to bring 'mature' to the big screen without all the difficult self-questioning and tough decision-making that make up actual maturity. Boobs and crude language do the same.
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
1
0
Leon Declis said:
He can get close to no-one, because who knows what might happen. He is mocked, feared and hated in equal measure. Like a man who could do ANYTHING would be. He is hunted by the government. Like he WOULD be.
Leon Declis said:
Because they raised him, and sheltered him, and looked after him.
I'm having a really hard time reconciling these two quotes. Is there context in the movie that demonstrates humanity at large looked after him, or would it have made just as much sense for him to spirit Ma Kent off somewhere safe and leave the rest of humanity to fend for itself?
 

Xman490

Doctorate in Danger
May 29, 2010
1,186
0
0
Because Batman - oh, I mean "The Dark Knight" - did it. Also, something about Zack Snider or whoever directed it.
 

Kyrian007

Nemo saltat sobrius
Legacy
Mar 9, 2010
2,567
649
118
Kansas
Country
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
It's kind of easy to write enjoyment of the dark and gritty off as kind of an emo, millennial thing. Truth is though xers like me were like that when I was a kid and now more than ever I'm sure we weren't the first ones to equate mature with dark and gritty. And just like most of us xers, the millennials will grow out of that nonsense at some point too. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy a little grit now and then. And looking into the "dark" is just as valid a look into human nature as anything else. But at some point you just stop equating it with "maturity." Usually at about 18, 19, or 21 when you get past the content restrictions and realize that although you had been locked off from some amazing things... you had also been locked out of a correspondingly larger amount of shlock.

Exploring a darker theme and a darker world via Superman isn't inherently bad, just as making the world of Superman dark and gritty doesn't actually make it "more mature." Like a lot of things, the execution matters more to me than the intent of the creators. Usually I don't care what story they wanted to tell, what matters to me is what story they actually did tell. And since we are talking about Man of Steel here, then we're talking about a movie with such broken and flawed basic mechanics that I hated it without regard at all to its supposedly "grimdark" aspects.

Of course it's hard to pay attention to its plot structure and character development at all when the only question I was asking myself through the entire movie was "why is the camera still shaking?" The camera shake was added in post (it wouldn't have cost $350 million + if it actually HAD been filmed on an iPhone) to give it a supposed more "real" look.

I'll let the absurdity of that sit for a second...

Real. It's somehow important for a movie about alien supermen facepunching each other through buildings to "look real." Look, I bought a ticket... that's a pretty good indicator that I can suspend enough disbelief to get into the story. I don't need some crappy shaky-cam gimmick to "help." All it really did is make what could have been some awesome eye-candy summer blockbuster look like a cheap student film/cheesy found footage horror.

In contrast, I just watched Days of Future Past yesterday. This movie had the premise of a bunch of superpowered mutated humans fighting T-1000's by reverse Terminatoring them with time travel. And it didn't try to make that seem more real with stupid camera tricks. And do you know what it sacrificed to make it look 1000x better than Man of Steel?

Nothing.
 

zarguhl

New member
Oct 4, 2010
141
0
0
I AM GENIUS!

The logical next move is to make a really happy, cheerful Batman movie! Like Batman is a cool, casual, nice guy who has a family, with kids and stuff. But then the evil Grinch comes to steal Christmas and Batman fights him off in a rap battle of compliments!
 

zarguhl

New member
Oct 4, 2010
141
0
0
Zira said:
Simply put: Superman is too perfect. As a result, he ends up being extremely boring and unrelatable.

Trying to make him grim and "realistic" means to add flaws to him, and therefore make him a little more likeable.
I agree, I can't stand good people! So annoying when people do good things and get things right and help people and stuff. I only like crazy people and murderers, they my homies! It sets a bad example to show a decent person, as if such a thing exists! What we need really is to show the full extent of human degradation and misery in all movies. My motto is, "If there isn't rape, murder and genocide, you don't have a story!"

I hate how Superman never kills children too. I mean that's just lame.
 

Vausch

New member
Dec 7, 2009
1,476
0
0
Well for one thing Superman lives in a world of talking gorillas, martians, and guys that can make light into physical objects that are broken by wood or the colour yellow. Making that realistic and gritty just seems like it's a fruitless effort. Have fun with it.

For another, Superman has criticised gritty superheroes in the past for the above reasons.

Superman's darker and more down to earth stories tend to come from when he realises he can't be everywhere at once and he can't help everybody that needs it despite being a few steps short of a god. You wanna have something where it gets darker? Look at something like New Krypton, or a story where despite his best efforts he still fails to save everybody and feels guilt over his inability to help.

Oh, and last up: Don't make him and everybody around him a fucking idiot like they did in Man of Steel.